Private schools are indefensible

[Anonymous]

Apologies if I missed this somewhere but one question that has bugged me in thinking about these issues (have young children who will enter school in a couple years): is there any evidence that rich parents sending their kids to their local public makes the local public better? Would love to see evidence that isn’t just anecdotal.

Maybe and maybe not. It definitely makes test scores better. Hence all the redistricting efforts.

[Anonymous]

C.F. Was born in CA. Not Ireland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Public schools have tons of money sloshing around, in addition to the $15-30k per pupil from property taxes, fed and title 1 they also pay for a ton of administration, defined benefit plans and healthcare plans for life for all retirees.

Maybe you should look into why their budget is 50% benefits and then 50% active salaries and facilities. And let’s not forget the mandatory teacher union dues each paycheck for the lobby group.

Where is there a public district at 30K per student?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies if I missed this somewhere but one question that has bugged me in thinking about these issues (have young children who will enter school in a couple years): is there any evidence that rich parents sending their kids to their local public makes the local public better? Would love to see evidence that isn’t just anecdotal.

I don’t know about evidence. But I have first hand experience. We moved from Alexandria to McLean. In our Alexandria local school the kids learn to read in kindergarten and in McLean 60% of kids came into my DD’s class reading fluently and the rest were emergent readers. She was only one of 2 that did not know how to read from the start. Her preschool teacher said she was right on track, since she knew her letters and sounds. Her current preschool teacher said that her McLean school has different expectations than other schools she has taught.

Some of the kids in her class had already completed kindergarten at a private school. I am not sure how many parents in Alexandria could afford to send their kids to private kindergarten. Things are very different, even though we only moved 15 miles away.

This does not add up to me. The most prestigious preschool feeders to high end private schools in this area are play-based and don't push literacy. So I don't think it is a SES difference necessarily. In fact, many preschools for at-risk kids start literacy instruction way earlier than these private school feeders to. It doesn't really matter if you can read in K or not, anyways, as long as you are moving along by the end of grade 1.

[Anonymous]

It turns out that all of this is just Caitlin Flanagan whining that teachers and kids can't be overtly racist any more in school:

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/maher-sounds-alarm-on-climate-of-fear-in-us-schools-parents-afraid-of-not-being-woke-enough

Predicable, I suppose, given her writing history.

[Anonymous]

Sidwell exists. Dunbar (DCPS) sucks.

If Sidwell locked it's doors, Dunbar would still suck.

Once upon a time, Dunbar didn't suck. It was an elite public African American high school that produced Dr. Charles R Drew, former DC mayor and councilman Vincent Gray, Eleanor Holmes Norton, and Nannie Helen Burroughs. How it came to suck is not the fault of GDS or Sidwell or Gonzaga. No, that's all on DCPS and the DC government. And why any DC public school is failing or whatnot has very little to do with rich people running around being rich doing annoying rich people stuff and more to do with the people who run the school and the population of students who attend. Articles and books about how rich people running around doing rich people stuff or 'resource hoarding' fail to illustrate how not running around doing annoying rich people stuff will actually uplift working class, middling class and poor people.

I know the article isn't about my dinky little Catholic school. But I think she overstates the importance of the elite schools. Education is important, but for the exception of a handful of sections in particular industries, nobody cares where you went to school. It might help get your foot in the door, but in my experience, at my govt. agency, nobody cares. I know and known people who are Harvard, Princeton and Yale graduates working for the government, at NGOs and non-profits with co-workers and supervisors who went to State U-Nowherevlle and Hudafuqcares College. Neither Biden or VP Harris went to an ivy league.

The original click bait title insinuated that all private schools are a problem, from the all-black Catholic school to the all-white Richie Rich independent school. Private schools serve a purpose. For some of my friends, they serve as a place where the public school system pays to send their neurodiverse kids. Some privates are a refuge for families where the public school has ignored students needs (ex. bullying, hostility to boy energy, etc). And seriously, do you want those of us who want daily prayer in school demanding that of your secular government schools? I doubt it.

Do what's best for your kids. Trust that other parents will try do what's best for their kids.

Well this has been entertaining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sidwell exists. Dunbar (DCPS) sucks.

If Sidwell locked it's doors, Dunbar would still suck.

Once upon a time, Dunbar didn't suck. It was an elite public African American high school that produced Dr. Charles R Drew, former DC mayor and councilman Vincent Gray, Eleanor Holmes Norton, and Nannie Helen Burroughs. How it came to suck is not the fault of GDS or Sidwell or Gonzaga. No, that's all on DCPS and the DC government. And why any DC public school is failing or whatnot has very little to do with rich people running around being rich doing annoying rich people stuff and more to do with the people who run the school and the population of students who attend. Articles and books about how rich people running around doing rich people stuff or 'resource hoarding' fail to illustrate how not running around doing annoying rich people stuff will actually uplift working class, middling class and poor people.

I know the article isn't about my dinky little Catholic school. But I think she overstates the importance of the elite schools. Education is important, but for the exception of a handful of sections in particular industries, nobody cares where you went to school. It might help get your foot in the door, but in my experience, at my govt. agency, nobody cares. I know and known people who are Harvard, Princeton and Yale graduates working for the government, at NGOs and non-profits with co-workers and supervisors who went to State U-Nowherevlle and Hudafuqcares College. Neither Biden or VP Harris went to an ivy league.

The original click bait title insinuated that all private schools are a problem, from the all-black Catholic school to the all-white Richie Rich independent school. Private schools serve a purpose. For some of my friends, they serve as a place where the public school system pays to send their neurodiverse kids. Some privates are a refuge for families where the public school has ignored students needs (ex. bullying, hostility to boy energy, etc). And seriously, do you want those of us who want daily prayer in school demanding that of your secular government schools? I doubt it.

Do what's best for your kids. Trust that other parents will try do what's best for their kids.

Well this has been entertaining.

Well, respectfully, you can spout "Do what's best for your kids," but you don't seem to understand that 99 percent of US parents don't have enough money to put their kids in private schools. Also, with a few exceptions in the DC region, most people don't include Catholic schools in the same world as private schools. So I don't think you need to worry about Flanigan or the rest of us worrying about your Catholic schools.

The other positive news is that universities this year have finally stopped valuing private school kids. In fact, they are being passed over for public school kids who get similar grades and test scores without all the money and tutors and special help.

No clue where Catholic school kids fit in there. I am guessing very low unless they can really prove a strong commitment to social justice work.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Even in the lesser privates, the gap is significant. As a student, teacher, and now parent that has gone back and forth between public and private (but not elite privates), I still see a big difference. Chiefly it's that the publics spend most of their time dealing with govt bureaucracy and difficult students, while privates do neither of those things. Without having to cowtow to govt mandates and without classrooms full of seriously disturbed students who won't let anyone else learn, privates can actually.....teach.

The elite privates just have to kowtow to seriously disturbed parents, according to the article.

Exactly. I’m literally chuckling at the “public schools can’t teach because of bad students” lmao

Most students are average whether they’re in public or private.

Wow, you clearly have never been in a public school classroom. I taught in one for 10 years. Literally ALL our attention and effort is on two things - students struggling academically who are a year or more behind, and students with major behavior problems that are so disruptive they prevent learning for the other 30 people in the room (30!). That does not happen in private.

I actually have been in a public school classroom and cole from a family of educators. I also have a cousin that has been a principle and is now a superintendent. What you wrote couldn’t be furthest from the truth. But I understand, people will have to find ways to rationalize spending $35,000 - $50,000+ a year on private school for their 8 year olds.

Well okay, since you say so.

Look, the people paying for private schools — only some of which cost as much as you are frothing about — either have plenty of money and can afford it, or they barely have enough money but it’s a priority to them and they make tradeoffs, or (like my family) they can’t afford and get financial aid.

You clearly don’t think it’s worth it. That’s fine. Why are you hanging out here to harangue people who do think it’s worth it? I’m sure you spend your money in ways that seem foolish to other people. In fact, I’m certain that you consume something that someone else would consider a luxury good.

That article was so stupid. How long did it take her to come up with the earth-shattering premise that private schools are luxury good? And that not everybody can afford them? And that plenty of people who consume luxury goods care about equity? MacKenzie Scott gave away almost $6b last year, and yet I promise you she doesn’t live in a shack.

If the premise is that no luxury goods should exist, then be honest and admit it’s what you’re saying. Are you just as upset about the existence of a Mercedes dealership as you are about Sidwell? Are you just as eager to convince everyone that Mercedes actually aren’t that great and that anyone who buys one is a fool? If Mercedes says “we will not tolerate racism among our staff, and will fire anyone who acts in a racist manner” are they just being hypocritical, because equity or something?

I never said private schools aren’t worth it. I support both public AND private schools. It’s presumptuous of you to think I don’t support private schools. All I said was the majority of children in private schools are average. And the majority of children in public schools are average. The majority of human beings sin the world are average.

I’m just sick of the “children in private schools are SOOO much better” when that couldn’t be further from the truth.

One of the great ironies of our current mess is that the richer kids are generally doing worse, psychologically, than the more middle class ones. (For more on this read Madeline Levine, Suniya Luthar, Self-Driven Kid by Stixrud & Johnson, studies like this: https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ1012963 )

The mentality that is at the heart of the decision to send most kids to elite private schools is at the heart of this dynamic. The irony is intense: Kids actually do better when they have an opportunity to develop resilience (and even, as I tell my own public school kids, to tolerate boredom and adversity). The more we do for our kids, the less they learn to do--and the cushier we make it, the less able they are to tolerate life, and the more likely they are to struggle with anxiety and other mental health problems in adulthood.

So my son will graduate from a private all-boys middle school this spring and matriculate at an elite Catholic all-boys school in the fall. He is accustomed to doing 3-4 hours of homework a night in middle school, and he plays sports for his school (required) and plays for his club lacrosse team. In eighth grade, he is taking Latin and high school level algebra. We cannot, as parents help him with any of those subjects, so he is on his own. He has flourished and is a straight A student. We gave him a choice to attend his current school and his choice of high school. He chooses to play club lacrosse. He just happens to love his school and love lacrosse. We do not make him go to his current school, his future high school and play sports. Those were all his choices. We do not do anything other than pay the bills and provide encouragement.

Look, quite a few people have a lot emotionally invested in believing that there must be a terrible flaw in private schools they can’t afford. Feels like poetic justice, right? So you’re never going to convince PP that your son is not, in fact, being damaged by private school.

We’re a FA family at one of those elite schools, so I can see it from both sides. And I’ll say this: whether it’s “worth it” depends on the school itself, what your other options are, and what tradeoffs (if any) you’re making to afford it. Some schools are worth it and some aren’t. Some public schools provide a great education and some don’t. It’s stupid and meaningless to make sweeping statements about what private schools do and don’t teach, or problems that public schools do or don’t have.

The title article was designed to inflame and outrage, and it accomplished that. It said absolutely nothing new, surprising, or (imo) insightful. But it got some people super riled up, which I guess was the point.

It said a lot. You just don't get it. Let's see what happens when your kids go off to college and then the real world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in the lesser privates, the gap is significant. As a student, teacher, and now parent that has gone back and forth between public and private (but not elite privates), I still see a big difference. Chiefly it's that the publics spend most of their time dealing with govt bureaucracy and difficult students, while privates do neither of those things. Without having to cowtow to govt mandates and without classrooms full of seriously disturbed students who won't let anyone else learn, privates can actually.....teach.

The elite privates just have to kowtow to seriously disturbed parents, according to the article.

Exactly. I’m literally chuckling at the “public schools can’t teach because of bad students” lmao

Most students are average whether they’re in public or private.

Wow, you clearly have never been in a public school classroom. I taught in one for 10 years. Literally ALL our attention and effort is on two things - students struggling academically who are a year or more behind, and students with major behavior problems that are so disruptive they prevent learning for the other 30 people in the room (30!). That does not happen in private.

I actually have been in a public school classroom and cole from a family of educators. I also have a cousin that has been a principle and is now a superintendent. What you wrote couldn’t be furthest from the truth. But I understand, people will have to find ways to rationalize spending $35,000 - $50,000+ a year on private school for their 8 year olds.

Well okay, since you say so.

Look, the people paying for private schools — only some of which cost as much as you are frothing about — either have plenty of money and can afford it, or they barely have enough money but it’s a priority to them and they make tradeoffs, or (like my family) they can’t afford and get financial aid.

You clearly don’t think it’s worth it. That’s fine. Why are you hanging out here to harangue people who do think it’s worth it? I’m sure you spend your money in ways that seem foolish to other people. In fact, I’m certain that you consume something that someone else would consider a luxury good.

That article was so stupid. How long did it take her to come up with the earth-shattering premise that private schools are luxury good? And that not everybody can afford them? And that plenty of people who consume luxury goods care about equity? MacKenzie Scott gave away almost $6b last year, and yet I promise you she doesn’t live in a shack.

If the premise is that no luxury goods should exist, then be honest and admit it’s what you’re saying. Are you just as upset about the existence of a Mercedes dealership as you are about Sidwell? Are you just as eager to convince everyone that Mercedes actually aren’t that great and that anyone who buys one is a fool? If Mercedes says “we will not tolerate racism among our staff, and will fire anyone who acts in a racist manner” are they just being hypocritical, because equity or something?

I never said private schools aren’t worth it. I support both public AND private schools. It’s presumptuous of you to think I don’t support private schools. All I said was the majority of children in private schools are average. And the majority of children in public schools are average. The majority of human beings sin the world are average.

I’m just sick of the “children in private schools are SOOO much better” when that couldn’t be further from the truth.

One of the great ironies of our current mess is that the richer kids are generally doing worse, psychologically, than the more middle class ones. (For more on this read Madeline Levine, Suniya Luthar, Self-Driven Kid by Stixrud & Johnson, studies like this: https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ1012963 )

The mentality that is at the heart of the decision to send most kids to elite private schools is at the heart of this dynamic. The irony is intense: Kids actually do better when they have an opportunity to develop resilience (and even, as I tell my own public school kids, to tolerate boredom and adversity). The more we do for our kids, the less they learn to do--and the cushier we make it, the less able they are to tolerate life, and the more likely they are to struggle with anxiety and other mental health problems in adulthood.

So my son will graduate from a private all-boys middle school this spring and matriculate at an elite Catholic all-boys school in the fall. He is accustomed to doing 3-4 hours of homework a night in middle school, and he plays sports for his school (required) and plays for his club lacrosse team. In eighth grade, he is taking Latin and high school level algebra. We cannot, as parents help him with any of those subjects, so he is on his own. He has flourished and is a straight A student. We gave him a choice to attend his current school and his choice of high school. He chooses to play club lacrosse. He just happens to love his school and love lacrosse. We do not make him go to his current school, his future high school and play sports. Those were all his choices. We do not do anything other than pay the bills and provide encouragement.

Look, quite a few people have a lot emotionally invested in believing that there must be a terrible flaw in private schools they can’t afford. Feels like poetic justice, right? So you’re never going to convince PP that your son is not, in fact, being damaged by private school.

We’re a FA family at one of those elite schools, so I can see it from both sides. And I’ll say this: whether it’s “worth it” depends on the school itself, what your other options are, and what tradeoffs (if any) you’re making to afford it. Some schools are worth it and some aren’t. Some public schools provide a great education and some don’t. It’s stupid and meaningless to make sweeping statements about what private schools do and don’t teach, or problems that public schools do or don’t have.

The title article was designed to inflame and outrage, and it accomplished that. It said absolutely nothing new, surprising, or (imo) insightful. But it got some people super riled up, which I guess was the point.

It said a lot. You just don't get it. Let's see what happens when your kids go off to college and then the real world.

Sunshine, did you miss the part about our being an FA family? My kid knows plenty about the “real world” because we live in it. I wager my kid knows more about what you’re calling the “real world” than the students at Whitman. Not to run down the hardscrabble stories of those coming off the mean streets of Bethesda or anything. Hold onto your dreams, kids.