This American Life about desegregation in schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, each family will be assigned a counselor, a life coach and tutors in every subject. And maybe a librarian who will visit them daily and read outlaud to the child.

And while you work on mocking whole groups of people, consider reading your post 'outlaud' to yourself.

I didn't read that poster's response "outlaud," but I re-read it, and to me it seems a reasonable response to a proposal for mandated "wrap around services." What kind of cost are we talking about here, and who would qualify, and how?

It's not proposed legislation. It's an idea of how money can benefit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, each family will be assigned a counselor, a life coach and tutors in every subject. And maybe a librarian who will visit them daily and read outlaud to the child.

And while you work on mocking whole groups of people, consider reading your post 'outlaud' to yourself.

I didn't read that poster's response "outlaud," but I re-read it, and to me it seems a reasonable response to a proposal for mandated "wrap around services." What kind of cost are we talking about here, and who would qualify, and how?

It's not proposed legislation. It's an idea of how money can benefit.

Oh, well that's swell. I want more money, too, and my kid can benefit. Where do I apply?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, each family will be assigned a counselor, a life coach and tutors in every subject. And maybe a librarian who will visit them daily and read outlaud to the child.

And while you work on mocking whole groups of people, consider reading your post 'outlaud' to yourself.

I didn't read that poster's response "outlaud," but I re-read it, and to me it seems a reasonable response to a proposal for mandated "wrap around services." What kind of cost are we talking about here, and who would qualify, and how?

It's not proposed legislation. It's an idea of how money can benefit.

Oh, well that's swell. I want more money, too, and my kid can benefit. Where do I apply?

I'd be interested in sponsoring a class on reason and logic for you. To whose parents' basement should I address the check?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not buying this argument that people have no choice.

In AL they do have a choice where to live, there is no big gap in real estate prices. You can live in a trailer and go to a very good school. If you live in a failing school zone you have the option of transferring to any school of your choice.

And we still have the same problem. The black schools are failing and only black schools.

It's a personal choice. The government cannot make you make the right choices.

DCPS exists as a 80% african american, high-poverty school district because of explicit government policies from the 19th century until the early 1970s. That's the reason regional population patterns are what they are. That's just a fact. High concentration of poverty leads to dysfunction. The fact that we've stopped actively stepping on people's throats within the last few decades is not a convincing argument that "people have a choice where to live". That's just ignorant of history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought the series was interesting from a human interest perspective, but was very much simplified the issues. I found it problematic that CT was spending tons of resources and money recruiting white suburban children (who could get a perfectly fine education in their own towns) to come to magnet schools while minority families couldn't get admission to those same schools because then they wouldn't be integrated. Sorry, but that's really screwed up.

I couldn't even imagine that happening in this area. It's different because it's not one state, but let's imagine that DCPS decides to pour resources into opening a brand new magnet HS in Anacostia. Gorgeous building, all the resources you could possibly want. Rather than allow underprivileged children from that neighborhood attend, it instead spends $$$ recruiting white, privileged children from MoCO to attend, thereby taking up spaces that DC kids could have had.

Do you understand what "magnet" means?

Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh, but the idea that "Hey, DCPS ought to build sparkling facilities and just pack those facilities full of uniformly high-poverty students" really shows a lack of understanding of DCPS' history. Been there, done that.

Jesus people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the series was interesting from a human interest perspective, but was very much simplified the issues. I found it problematic that CT was spending tons of resources and money recruiting white suburban children (who could get a perfectly fine education in their own towns) to come to magnet schools while minority families couldn't get admission to those same schools because then they wouldn't be integrated. Sorry, but that's really screwed up.

I couldn't even imagine that happening in this area. It's different because it's not one state, but let's imagine that DCPS decides to pour resources into opening a brand new magnet HS in Anacostia. Gorgeous building, all the resources you could possibly want. Rather than allow underprivileged children from that neighborhood attend, it instead spends $$$ recruiting white, privileged children from MoCO to attend, thereby taking up spaces that DC kids could have had.

I think you just described the general theme of Duke Ellington. Lot's of DC money spent on it, and it benefits kids from MD and VA.

Forget Ellington, PP has just described the history of every major DC public high school: Dunbar, Woodson, Eastern, Roosevelt, etc...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Right now DCPS is spending tens of millions on school modernizations for high schools like Dunbar and Cardozo and Woodson and Coolidge and the grade level percentiles are still in the 30th percent range. . .

Been going on forever, too: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/34603/end-of-an-error

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right now DCPS is spending tens of millions on school modernizations for high schools like Dunbar and Cardozo and Woodson and Coolidge and the grade level percentiles are still in the 30th percent range. . .

And? The students who attend there are largely coming from poor families. Did you expect that a new school building was all that was needed to fix the issues associated with poverty? Would you prefer to warehouse poor students in a crappy building?
I'd rather spend our DC money on buildings that my less fortunate DC neighbors use than on buildings that MD / VA people use. Now if MD & VA want to renovate Ellington, I'd be fine with that.

Jesus, I feel like I'm on crazy pills here.

Other PP writes that it's crazy to create magnet schools where there's an actual socioeconomic mix. We should just create nice buildings and pack them full of uniformly high-poverty student bodies. Then someone points out that we've done this, over and over again. The schools fall to shit, and the student outcomes remain in the basement.

Now along comes PP here to ask, "Did you expect that a new school building was all that was needed?"

Oh, and why were they trying to entice middle-class kids to these schools in CT? They just should've erected the nice new school buildings and filled them with poor people. Why try to cater to middle class students? They already get the good stuff, anyway.

Sorry, but "KIPP-fan PP" aside, the reason school districts are so desparate to leverage integration is that it's the only thing that's been shown to work for general population of high-poverty kids (as opposed to the limited subset of KIPP kids whose parents are poor but incredibly motivated).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right now DCPS is spending tens of millions on school modernizations for high schools like Dunbar and Cardozo and Woodson and Coolidge and the grade level percentiles are still in the 30th percent range. . .

Yeah, I don't get the point of this comment at all. Are you trying to say that the schools should stay dilapidated until the scores come up?

These areas have been under the weight of concentrated poverty for decades; you can't turn that around in 2-3 years. But population projections are showing an exponential increase in school-aged children in the next 20 years and real estate trends seem to indicate that they'll be households with much higher incomes. I don't have any data, but it's likely that it's the expanded tax base coming from gentrification in these neighborhoods that's allowing the modernization.

It's a chicken/egg problem though. We need to figure out a way to get those middle-class kids into the schools with poor kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is that when you take a failing kid living in poverty and put him in a brand new multi million dollar school with best teachers he will still fail.

And so?

Anonymous wrote: You can't solve problems by throwing money at them.

That's a lame cop-out. There's plenty that money can do. Just fixing facilities isn't going to do it. Having money for councilors / therapists and wrap around services for the child / family will certainly improve their outcome.

This is true. Actually, you could probably get really good outcomes by just giving poor parents lots of money. Poverty is the problem. Make them not poor. The solution is simple. Problem is, there's no way you can sell those policies to the American electorate. So you're back to square one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, each family will be assigned a counselor, a life coach and tutors in every subject. And maybe a librarian who will visit them daily and read outlaud to the child.

And while you work on mocking whole groups of people, consider reading your post 'outlaud' to yourself.

I didn't read that poster's response "outlaud," but I re-read it, and to me it seems a reasonable response to a proposal for mandated "wrap around services." What kind of cost are we talking about here, and who would qualify, and how?

Exactly. I live in Fairfax county, and I'm not sure why I should have to pay for wrap-around services for some poor in a place that's more than 5 miles from where I live. Sure poverty has costs, but I'm pretty much insulated from them. So what's in it for me?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the series was interesting from a human interest perspective, but was very much simplified the issues. I found it problematic that CT was spending tons of resources and money recruiting white suburban children (who could get a perfectly fine education in their own towns) to come to magnet schools while minority families couldn't get admission to those same schools because then they wouldn't be integrated. Sorry, but that's really screwed up.

I couldn't even imagine that happening in this area. It's different because it's not one state, but let's imagine that DCPS decides to pour resources into opening a brand new magnet HS in Anacostia. Gorgeous building, all the resources you could possibly want. Rather than allow underprivileged children from that neighborhood attend, it instead spends $$$ recruiting white, privileged children from MoCO to attend, thereby taking up spaces that DC kids could have had.

Do you understand what "magnet" means?

Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh, but the idea that "Hey, DCPS ought to build sparkling facilities and just pack those facilities full of uniformly high-poverty students" really shows a lack of understanding of DCPS' history. Been there, done that.

Jesus people.

I've argued for a while that since many families want magnet programs for ES and MS levels so they could create more academic integration that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is true. Actually, you could probably get really good outcomes by just giving poor parents lots of money. Poverty is the problem. Make them not poor. The solution is simple. Problem is, there's no way you can sell those policies to the American electorate. So you're back to square one.

You think these people ended up poor by accident? It's the choices they make every day. Like getting nails done versus buying a book.

You give them cash and check in a few months. I guarantee you they will have gone through the cash, back on welfare, and it's not because they invested into 529.

You take a low SES class black girl and put her in a nice shiny building with books and teachers. She'll get pregnant and drop out. We create nice buildings over and over again, and the schools fall to shit because you can't fix internal metal issues with expensive material crap. Kids need proper environment and role models. Schools cannot make up for the environment at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not buying this argument that people have no choice.

In AL they do have a choice where to live, there is no big gap in real estate prices. You can live in a trailer and go to a very good school. If you live in a failing school zone you have the option of transferring to any school of your choice.

And we still have the same problem. The black schools are failing and only black schools.

It's a personal choice. The government cannot make you make the right choices.

DCPS exists as a 80% african american, high-poverty school district because of explicit government policies from the 19th century until the early 1970s. That's the reason regional population patterns are what they are. That's just a fact. High concentration of poverty leads to dysfunction. The fact that we've stopped actively stepping on people's throats within the last few decades is not a convincing argument that "people have a choice where to live". That's just ignorant of history.

Do you actually know anything about the history of the District of Columbia? Here's one Locke you could start: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/15999/a-brief-history-of-white-people-in-southeast

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not buying this argument that people have no choice.

In AL they do have a choice where to live, there is no big gap in real estate prices. You can live in a trailer and go to a very good school. If you live in a failing school zone you have the option of transferring to any school of your choice.

And we still have the same problem. The black schools are failing and only black schools.

It's a personal choice. The government cannot make you make the right choices.

DCPS exists as a 80% african american, high-poverty school district because of explicit government policies from the 19th century until the early 1970s. That's the reason regional population patterns are what they are. That's just a fact. High concentration of poverty leads to dysfunction. The fact that we've stopped actively stepping on people's throats within the last few decades is not a convincing argument that "people have a choice where to live". That's just ignorant of history.

Gosh, I wonder why all those A-A folks living in predominantly A-A Georgetown decided to up and leave their beautiful houses and move somewhere else. Yup, must be the white people done it. Couldn't be any other reason why those folks moved, cos doing it by rational choice makes no sense to me.