Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.
And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.
No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.
You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!
I have not seen a thing that the governor said so I don’t even know what you’re talking about there nor do I care what he says. My point in my post is that there’s a lot of blaming going on by people who don’t really understand the full story. The parents can blame whoever they want. But my prediction is that the camps will not bear the brunt of it.
I’m unsure what else the camps were supposed to do other than what they did but that is where my ignorance comes in. I guess you can say they should not have relied on local officials but rather have direct communication with the NWS (if that is even a thing). Or they should have pressed harder for the warning sirens years ago. But again, the sirens only work if the local officials are doing their jobs and have the data they need. Or they could have put the cabins higher up even though the water has never in the camp history gotten that high much less that fast (and ditto to several other camps in the area.)
I also can’t emphasize enough that there are flash flood warnings often out there, but they are akin to stay home and don’t drive. Not evacuation orders. If you will note, there were no evacuation orders of any kind given by anyone thus the missing people all along the river, even in town, not just the camp.
And I’m going to assume that the person blaming the counselors is a troll. There are at least two counselors missing from Mystic. They were the counselors in the cabin that was most affected. I’ve personally heard stories about 19-year-old counselors who broke windows to get out and led their campers up to safety and sang songs with them under a tree in the dark in the pouring rain.
Ignorance indeed.
1. The Governor just said: "Now we know prayers work" - because not more peopled died, presumably? He's a big climate change denier. That remark just shows he won't accept any blame whatsoever and is desperately trying to squeeze praise out of this.
2. The county the camp is in refused to upgrade the flood warning system that they themselves identified as being old and inefficient. Apparently they've been debating it for years and nothing got done, because some middle managers thought funds should go elsewhere.
3. The camp should not have had cabins so low next to a river that is known to flood. Other camps did not have cabins set up so low.
So right off the bat, 24hrs after the tragedy, you have a Governor who is proud of the outcome, a county whose kids died because it refused to put in a better warning system (unlike the county next to it), and a camp with cabins too close to the river, unlike other camps.
YOU THINK THERE'S NO BLAME TO GO AROUND?
The camp should have had a warning system and a safety plan given how many they had at the camp. There is tons of blame but ultimately it’s on the camp.
No, the blame is spread equally. A camp cannot have a warning system: it can move cabins to higher ground and hold practice evacuations, however. It's the countries who set up the weather alert sirens. The next county over apparently did that, but this county did not. And the Governor is toxic.
Why can’t a camp have a warning system? I mean I agree it would be better if the county had it, but why can’t a camp set up a siren or something that the first person who realizes something is amiss can activate, the way a fire alarm gets activated by the first person who sees flames.
You would still need someone paying attention for watches and warnings from NWS, it wouldn’t be automatic, but it would be better than putting little girls to bed in a flood plain where there had been 4 catastrophic floods in 99 years, and then going to bed during a flash flood watch.
PP you replied to. Because it's simply way too expensive. Warning systems are linked to official meteorological stations and need computer models, rain gauges, automatic readings of same, distribution of alerts, digital and mechanical, and personnel that's trained to monitor the system 24/7. A camp could never, ever afford something like that. The smallest met warning systems are county systems, integrated into emergency management offices. Which that county refused to upgrade. Hence why the county is very much to blame!
The county needs a state-of-the-art system, and when it activates, each hospital, nursing home, school, workplace, summer camp, etc, have their own evac procedure. That's how it's usually done.
Make no mistake, people. There's a ton of blame to be handed out to all levels of government plus the camp.
Yes, the government is to blame for not installing a state of the art system for a random rural county in Texas. I can tell you never lived anywhere rural! Lol
I don’t even have county water and only recently got WiFi, there is no way the government can afford sirens for every square inch of the US. Do you have any idea how large this country is? I’m in tornado country and we don’t even have sirens for that, they drive around in a truck with a siren attached as if that is going to help. It’s not practical. You fend for yourself and are grateful to do it. We don’t even want the government’s help with this stuff.
The local government is to blame. They had debated installing an alarm system for years along the river, but did not want to pay for it. They admitted that local residents were anti tax.
Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.
And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.
No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.
You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!
I have not seen a thing that the governor said so I don’t even know what you’re talking about there nor do I care what he says. My point in my post is that there’s a lot of blaming going on by people who don’t really understand the full story. The parents can blame whoever they want. But my prediction is that the camps will not bear the brunt of it.
I’m unsure what else the camps were supposed to do other than what they did but that is where my ignorance comes in. I guess you can say they should not have relied on local officials but rather have direct communication with the NWS (if that is even a thing). Or they should have pressed harder for the warning sirens years ago. But again, the sirens only work if the local officials are doing their jobs and have the data they need. Or they could have put the cabins higher up even though the water has never in the camp history gotten that high much less that fast (and ditto to several other camps in the area.)
I also can’t emphasize enough that there are flash flood warnings often out there, but they are akin to stay home and don’t drive. Not evacuation orders. If you will note, there were no evacuation orders of any kind given by anyone thus the missing people all along the river, even in town, not just the camp.
And I’m going to assume that the person blaming the counselors is a troll. There are at least two counselors missing from Mystic. They were the counselors in the cabin that was most affected. I’ve personally heard stories about 19-year-old counselors who broke windows to get out and led their campers up to safety and sang songs with them under a tree in the dark in the pouring rain.
Ignorance indeed.
1. The Governor just said: "Now we know prayers work" - because not more peopled died, presumably? He's a big climate change denier. That remark just shows he won't accept any blame whatsoever and is desperately trying to squeeze praise out of this.
2. The county the camp is in refused to upgrade the flood warning system that they themselves identified as being old and inefficient. Apparently they've been debating it for years and nothing got done, because some middle managers thought funds should go elsewhere.
3. The camp should not have had cabins so low next to a river that is known to flood. Other camps did not have cabins set up so low.
So right off the bat, 24hrs after the tragedy, you have a Governor who is proud of the outcome, a county whose kids died because it refused to put in a better warning system (unlike the county next to it), and a camp with cabins too close to the river, unlike other camps.
YOU THINK THERE'S NO BLAME TO GO AROUND?
The camp should have had a warning system and a safety plan given how many they had at the camp. There is tons of blame but ultimately it’s on the camp.
No, the blame is spread equally. A camp cannot have a warning system: it can move cabins to higher ground and hold practice evacuations, however. It's the countries who set up the weather alert sirens. The next county over apparently did that, but this county did not. And the Governor is toxic.
Why can’t a camp have a warning system? I mean I agree it would be better if the county had it, but why can’t a camp set up a siren or something that the first person who realizes something is amiss can activate, the way a fire alarm gets activated by the first person who sees flames.
You would still need someone paying attention for watches and warnings from NWS, it wouldn’t be automatic, but it would be better than putting little girls to bed in a flood plain where there had been 4 catastrophic floods in 99 years, and then going to bed during a flash flood watch.
PP you replied to. Because it's simply way too expensive. Warning systems are linked to official meteorological stations and need computer models, rain gauges, automatic readings of same, distribution of alerts, digital and mechanical, and personnel that's trained to monitor the system 24/7. A camp could never, ever afford something like that. The smallest met warning systems are county systems, integrated into emergency management offices. Which that county refused to upgrade. Hence why the county is very much to blame!
The county needs a state-of-the-art system, and when it activates, each hospital, nursing home, school, workplace, summer camp, etc, have their own evac procedure. That's how it's usually done.
Make no mistake, people. There's a ton of blame to be handed out to all levels of government plus the camp.
Yes, the government is to blame for not installing a state of the art system for a random rural county in Texas. I can tell you never lived anywhere rural! Lol
I don’t even have county water and only recently got WiFi, there is no way the government can afford sirens for every square inch of the US. Do you have any idea how large this country is? I’m in tornado country and we don’t even have sirens for that, they drive around in a truck with a siren attached as if that is going to help. It’s not practical. You fend for yourself and are grateful to do it. We don’t even want the government’s help with this stuff.
They didn't need anything that expensive. Just a $20 weather radio and someone to listen to it. But that is too much to ask of citizens.
Anonymous wrote:Love all this finger pointing! We know it all starts at the top ……… the orange idiot.
Grow up.
Truth hurts ….
It’s not the truth and you’re not educating, persuading, or helping. You’re just being an idiot. You can dislike the president and deplore his budget cuts without being a psychopath or parroting gibberish. Cause and effect matter. Read the articles at the above links—or do you prefer to just hang out at the level of other nematodes?
Anonymous wrote:Love all this finger pointing! We know it all starts at the top ……… the orange idiot.
Grow up.
Truth hurts ….
It’s not the truth and you’re not educating, persuading, or helping. You’re just being an idiot. You can dislike the president and deplore his budget cuts without being a psychopath or parroting gibberish. Cause and effect matter. Read the articles at the above links—or do you prefer to just hang out at the level of other nematodes?
Staff half the size it was before Trump. It’s like when anyone tries to say something about gun control after a mass shooting. Immediately get dumped on for being “insensitive”. We tried to warn you.
You could quadruple the staff and it wouldn't have helped.
Wrong again. You voted for cuts they made cuts people died.
If Abbott is asking for federal help this is what Trump thinks of him: “We want to wean off of FEMA, and we want to bring it down to the state level,” Trump said. “A governor should be able to handle it, and frankly, if they can’t handle it, the aftermath, then maybe they shouldn’t be governor.”
There was catastrophic flooding in North Carolina has year that killed more than 250 people. Natural disasters will continue to happen regardless of who is in the WH and the scope of them is often not predictable.
I am so glad I am within a few months of a second citizenship. A nation divided and all that. The British writer WH Auden said, “We would rather be ruined than changed.” We should add that to our currency, perhaps make it the national motto. This isn’t a partisan issue. Deaths, particularly the deaths of children, should elicit compassion and national mourning. Whether it’s Uvalde or Camp Mystic, don’t use kids to score political points.
Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.
And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.
No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.
You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!
I have not seen a thing that the governor said so I don’t even know what you’re talking about there nor do I care what he says. My point in my post is that there’s a lot of blaming going on by people who don’t really understand the full story. The parents can blame whoever they want. But my prediction is that the camps will not bear the brunt of it.
I’m unsure what else the camps were supposed to do other than what they did but that is where my ignorance comes in. I guess you can say they should not have relied on local officials but rather have direct communication with the NWS (if that is even a thing). Or they should have pressed harder for the warning sirens years ago. But again, the sirens only work if the local officials are doing their jobs and have the data they need. Or they could have put the cabins higher up even though the water has never in the camp history gotten that high much less that fast (and ditto to several other camps in the area.)
I also can’t emphasize enough that there are flash flood warnings often out there, but they are akin to stay home and don’t drive. Not evacuation orders. If you will note, there were no evacuation orders of any kind given by anyone thus the missing people all along the river, even in town, not just the camp.
And I’m going to assume that the person blaming the counselors is a troll. There are at least two counselors missing from Mystic. They were the counselors in the cabin that was most affected. I’ve personally heard stories about 19-year-old counselors who broke windows to get out and led their campers up to safety and sang songs with them under a tree in the dark in the pouring rain.
Ignorance indeed.
1. The Governor just said: "Now we know prayers work" - because not more peopled died, presumably? He's a big climate change denier. That remark just shows he won't accept any blame whatsoever and is desperately trying to squeeze praise out of this.
2. The county the camp is in refused to upgrade the flood warning system that they themselves identified as being old and inefficient. Apparently they've been debating it for years and nothing got done, because some middle managers thought funds should go elsewhere.
3. The camp should not have had cabins so low next to a river that is known to flood. Other camps did not have cabins set up so low.
So right off the bat, 24hrs after the tragedy, you have a Governor who is proud of the outcome, a county whose kids died because it refused to put in a better warning system (unlike the county next to it), and a camp with cabins too close to the river, unlike other camps.
YOU THINK THERE'S NO BLAME TO GO AROUND?
The camp should have had a warning system and a safety plan given how many they had at the camp. There is tons of blame but ultimately it’s on the camp.
No, the blame is spread equally. A camp cannot have a warning system: it can move cabins to higher ground and hold practice evacuations, however. It's the countries who set up the weather alert sirens. The next county over apparently did that, but this county did not. And the Governor is toxic.
Why can’t a camp have a warning system? I mean I agree it would be better if the county had it, but why can’t a camp set up a siren or something that the first person who realizes something is amiss can activate, the way a fire alarm gets activated by the first person who sees flames.
You would still need someone paying attention for watches and warnings from NWS, it wouldn’t be automatic, but it would be better than putting little girls to bed in a flood plain where there had been 4 catastrophic floods in 99 years, and then going to bed during a flash flood watch.
PP you replied to. Because it's simply way too expensive. Warning systems are linked to official meteorological stations and need computer models, rain gauges, automatic readings of same, distribution of alerts, digital and mechanical, and personnel that's trained to monitor the system 24/7. A camp could never, ever afford something like that. The smallest met warning systems are county systems, integrated into emergency management offices. Which that county refused to upgrade. Hence why the county is very much to blame!
The county needs a state-of-the-art system, and when it activates, each hospital, nursing home, school, workplace, summer camp, etc, have their own evac procedure. That's how it's usually done.
Make no mistake, people. There's a ton of blame to be handed out to all levels of government plus the camp.
Yes, the government is to blame for not installing a state of the art system for a random rural county in Texas. I can tell you never lived anywhere rural! Lol
I don’t even have county water and only recently got WiFi, there is no way the government can afford sirens for every square inch of the US. Do you have any idea how large this country is? I’m in tornado country and we don’t even have sirens for that, they drive around in a truck with a siren attached as if that is going to help. It’s not practical. You fend for yourself and are grateful to do it. We don’t even want the government’s help with this stuff.
They didn't need anything that expensive. Just a $20 weather radio and someone to listen to it. But that is too much to ask of citizens.
They already had phones with weather apps and notifications, we all do. Flash floods are not expected, especially one of this magnitude that would be larger than any of the previous ones which did not have the same impact. It’s a tragic accident, it happens, no one is to blame. I don’t spend the night in the basement every time there is a tornado watch, and neither does anyone else because if I did, I’d live in the basement half the summer.
The crazy thing is that there are around 20 summer camps on or near the Guadalupe River, which has been known to flood before. Who thought that was a good idea?
Anonymous wrote:There was catastrophic flooding in North Carolina has year that killed more than 250 people. Natural disasters will continue to happen regardless of who is in the WH and the scope of them is often not predictable.
Stop being so reasonable. It’s a bad look when you could be blaming the orange man.
Anonymous wrote:The crazy thing is that there are around 20 summer camps on or near the Guadalupe River, which has been known to flood before. Who thought that was a good idea?
Civilizations have been built around rivers since the beginning of mankind. The Nile River basin flooded annually and yet they still built Luxor next to it.
Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.
And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.
No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.
You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!
I have not seen a thing that the governor said so I don’t even know what you’re talking about there nor do I care what he says. My point in my post is that there’s a lot of blaming going on by people who don’t really understand the full story. The parents can blame whoever they want. But my prediction is that the camps will not bear the brunt of it.
I’m unsure what else the camps were supposed to do other than what they did but that is where my ignorance comes in. I guess you can say they should not have relied on local officials but rather have direct communication with the NWS (if that is even a thing). Or they should have pressed harder for the warning sirens years ago. But again, the sirens only work if the local officials are doing their jobs and have the data they need. Or they could have put the cabins higher up even though the water has never in the camp history gotten that high much less that fast (and ditto to several other camps in the area.)
I also can’t emphasize enough that there are flash flood warnings often out there, but they are akin to stay home and don’t drive. Not evacuation orders. If you will note, there were no evacuation orders of any kind given by anyone thus the missing people all along the river, even in town, not just the camp.
And I’m going to assume that the person blaming the counselors is a troll. There are at least two counselors missing from Mystic. They were the counselors in the cabin that was most affected. I’ve personally heard stories about 19-year-old counselors who broke windows to get out and led their campers up to safety and sang songs with them under a tree in the dark in the pouring rain.
Ignorance indeed.
1. The Governor just said: "Now we know prayers work" - because not more peopled died, presumably? He's a big climate change denier. That remark just shows he won't accept any blame whatsoever and is desperately trying to squeeze praise out of this.
2. The county the camp is in refused to upgrade the flood warning system that they themselves identified as being old and inefficient. Apparently they've been debating it for years and nothing got done, because some middle managers thought funds should go elsewhere.
3. The camp should not have had cabins so low next to a river that is known to flood. Other camps did not have cabins set up so low.
So right off the bat, 24hrs after the tragedy, you have a Governor who is proud of the outcome, a county whose kids died because it refused to put in a better warning system (unlike the county next to it), and a camp with cabins too close to the river, unlike other camps.
YOU THINK THERE'S NO BLAME TO GO AROUND?
The camp should have had a warning system and a safety plan given how many they had at the camp. There is tons of blame but ultimately it’s on the camp.
No, the blame is spread equally. A camp cannot have a warning system: it can move cabins to higher ground and hold practice evacuations, however. It's the countries who set up the weather alert sirens. The next county over apparently did that, but this county did not. And the Governor is toxic.
Why can’t a camp have a warning system? I mean I agree it would be better if the county had it, but why can’t a camp set up a siren or something that the first person who realizes something is amiss can activate, the way a fire alarm gets activated by the first person who sees flames.
You would still need someone paying attention for watches and warnings from NWS, it wouldn’t be automatic, but it would be better than putting little girls to bed in a flood plain where there had been 4 catastrophic floods in 99 years, and then going to bed during a flash flood watch.
PP you replied to. Because it's simply way too expensive. Warning systems are linked to official meteorological stations and need computer models, rain gauges, automatic readings of same, distribution of alerts, digital and mechanical, and personnel that's trained to monitor the system 24/7. A camp could never, ever afford something like that. The smallest met warning systems are county systems, integrated into emergency management offices. Which that county refused to upgrade. Hence why the county is very much to blame!
The county needs a state-of-the-art system, and when it activates, each hospital, nursing home, school, workplace, summer camp, etc, have their own evac procedure. That's how it's usually done.
Make no mistake, people. There's a ton of blame to be handed out to all levels of government plus the camp.
Yes, the government is to blame for not installing a state of the art system for a random rural county in Texas. I can tell you never lived anywhere rural! Lol
I don’t even have county water and only recently got WiFi, there is no way the government can afford sirens for every square inch of the US. Do you have any idea how large this country is? I’m in tornado country and we don’t even have sirens for that, they drive around in a truck with a siren attached as if that is going to help. It’s not practical. You fend for yourself and are grateful to do it. We don’t even want the government’s help with this stuff.
They didn't need anything that expensive. Just a $20 weather radio and someone to listen to it. But that is too much to ask of citizens.
They already had phones with weather apps and notifications, we all do. Flash floods are not expected, especially one of this magnitude that would be larger than any of the previous ones which did not have the same impact. It’s a tragic accident, it happens, no one is to blame. I don’t spend the night in the basement every time there is a tornado watch, and neither does anyone else because if I did, I’d live in the basement half the summer.
4 catastrophic floods in 99 years, who could’ve known? 2nd largest flood in the area which means there was one that was higher.
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