Petition: Later MCPS school start times

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

Do you mean like the one they settled on a few years ago?

Correct. We already moved the start time back from 7:15/7:20 to 7:45 and they're still complaining.

Problem is, a lot of kids are spending that 30 minutes in the hallway because buses drop them at the school at 7:10. So moving the start time didn't actually change much if your child relies on the bus for transportation.

School buses aren't showing up that early. Are you talking about Ride On/Metrobus?

Nope. My teen's bus arrives no later than 7:15, but most of the time she arrives at 7:10. Then sits in a hallway or walks around for 30 minutes. I was told it was due to the bus needing to do the middle school route.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

Do you mean like the one they settled on a few years ago?

Correct. We already moved the start time back from 7:15/7:20 to 7:45 and they're still complaining.

Problem is, a lot of kids are spending that 30 minutes in the hallway because buses drop them at the school at 7:10. So moving the start time didn't actually change much if your child relies on the bus for transportation.

School buses aren't showing up that early. Are you talking about Ride On/Metrobus?

Nope. My teen's bus arrives no later than 7:15, but most of the time she arrives at 7:10. Then sits in a hallway or walks around for 30 minutes. I was told it was due to the bus needing to do the middle school route.

Wow. Even though that's your daughter's experience, that is not the norm for most kids for sure.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think the down county consortium should test this approach and use a later start time at one of the DCC high schools. The density of ES is high enough here that you might even be able to free up the right number of busses by give people a choice between a late vs early ES. This would let MCPS test the idea without forcing anyone into it. If enough people want it, you can grow the number of schools doing it and if it causes issues or no one actually wants to live with what a later hs start time means, they can discontinue it.

How about HS 9:00a-3:45p. Is that really too late to start practice for athletic teens?

Our swim starts at 3:45, so yes, slight issue. And, there are morning practices as well. Our school swim practices start either early in the AM or 3 PM. Not including sports and other activities for our kids. Plus homework. That 45 minutes after school is a big deal. And, many parents need older kids to watch younger kids after school. How would that work when there are not enough after school spots as it is?

My kid goes to (private) HS 845-315, it works just fine. Other school systems and communities have figured this out.

Sure, if you're willing to give MCPS enough money to pay for twice as manybuses and drivers.

many school systems have HS start last so the adolescent brain, with its shifted circadian rhythm, starts later, too.

And many kids are fine with the earlier start time. Here’s an idea. Enforce bedtime. Be a parent.

I’m not sure why you can’t grasp this, but their circadian rhythm prevents them from falling asleep early. They can start laying in bed at whatever time they want, but they won’t necessarily sleep. You can’t overcome biology by ordering someone who isn’t sleepy to sleep.

Stop making excuses. If they are tired they will sleep. Or, they can nap when they get home. You should like a lazy parent.

I’m sorry you don’t comprehend the situation.

Comprehend what? Your kids are spoiled and refuse to go to bed and you prefer to not parent and find ways to help the. By making up nonsense and punish the rest of or kid who are in activities, working, etc which yours are not so no excuse why they cannot go to bed. Be a parent and enforce bedtime.

Not the PP, but how exactly does this punish other kids? All get to sleep later and no one would be cutting activities. You do realize other places start school later their kids are fine.

First off, they may not sleep later. And, how do you propose it works. Sports, for example outside of MCPS all share facilities and there is only so much time/space. As it is the HS kids swim at 3 PM (and it's a mad rush to get them to the pool when school does not let out till 3:30 PM). Mine is in multiple activities outside and inside school and there would be no way to fit it all in without them going to bed much later, which then defeats the purpose. They aren't getting more sleep.

Y'all don't read. Read the science. Oh I forgot, that would be too much parenting on your part.

As a parent, I enforce bedtime. See how that works. So, my kid goes to bed an hour later as everything is pushed back and only sleeps in an extra 30 mintures. They lose sleep.

That would make your child an outlier.

What do you think will happen if things are pushed back an hour to accommodate you not wanting to parent your kids? Sports, after school activities, work, etc. all get pushed back an hour, so kids get home and hour later, then homework, dinner, shower, and then bed, all an hour later? So, instead of a kid going to bed at 11, they will now go to bed at 12. That's not healthy.

First, showers are in the morning the way God intended.

Second, IDGAF about sports and after-school activities; they are optional, while school is obligatory. Things required by the law should not be done in ways that obviously damage the health of people required to do them. Starts before 8:30 are in this category. What you do about your travel soccer team issues is your problem.

Some people like to shower at night. So, no they aren't, especially when you only have one bathroom.

You may not care about sports and activities, but many of our kids do and colleges do. Why wouldn't you want your kids to explore their interests and talents? Many of our kids manage just fine, so I don't care that your kids refuse to go to bed, you refuse to parent them and you are too selfish to have them in any activities as well because you cannot be inconvenienced by your kids. You want what is easy for you, not best.

Your kids not getting enough sleep is your problem.

My kids high level sports and other activities are not a problem. You are the one complaining, not me. So, grow up, parent and get your kids to bed.

Ah! The “high level” sports. Y’all are fairly transparent.

Ah! The self-absorbed parent who doesn't support their child's interests. Its all about you, not your kids.

Ah! That old ad hominem attack. Staple DCUMer. Never change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

Do you mean like the one they settled on a few years ago?

Correct. We already moved the start time back from 7:15/7:20 to 7:45 and they're still complaining.

Problem is, a lot of kids are spending that 30 minutes in the hallway because buses drop them at the school at 7:10. So moving the start time didn't actually change much if your child relies on the bus for transportation.

School buses aren't showing up that early. Are you talking about Ride On/Metrobus?

Nope. My teen's bus arrives no later than 7:15, but most of the time she arrives at 7:10. Then sits in a hallway or walks around for 30 minutes. I was told it was due to the bus needing to do the middle school route.

Wow. Even though that's your daughter's experience, that is not the norm for most kids for sure.

My magnet kid’s bus comes before 7:00.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

Do you mean like the one they settled on a few years ago?

Correct. We already moved the start time back from 7:15/7:20 to 7:45 and they're still complaining.

Problem is, a lot of kids are spending that 30 minutes in the hallway because buses drop them at the school at 7:10. So moving the start time didn't actually change much if your child relies on the bus for transportation.

School buses aren't showing up that early. Are you talking about Ride On/Metrobus?

Nope. My teen's bus arrives no later than 7:15, but most of the time she arrives at 7:10. Then sits in a hallway or walks around for 30 minutes. I was told it was due to the bus needing to do the middle school route.

Wow. Even though that's your daughter's experience, that is not the norm for most kids for sure.

My magnet kid’s bus comes before 7:00.

MCPS school bus, that is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

What accountability measures are in place or will be put in place to make sure we get the adolescent sleep increase you state is essential and will come from making this costly and burdensome shift?

If you are so concerned about the cost and burden, why are you adamant that we must make it MORE costly and MORE burdensome with “accountability measures”? Would you propose changing that the start time to be earlier if sleep metrics didn’t hit what ever targets you deem satisfactory?

The fact that I have to explain to you why we should measure if what we're claiming will happen, does happen, before we spend a large amount of human and financial resources actually says everything about you, your proposal and your integrity.

How could we possibly measure what happens BEFORE spending the human and financial resources? If you want to measure what actually happens, you cannot do that until you have already implemented the changes (and therefore spent the human and financial resources). Adding “accountability metrics” is simply adding MORE human and financial resources after the fact. I am curious what the ultimate point of such metrics would be? If it turned out to not have an impact would you then want to spend EVEN MORE human and financial resources to change everything back?

Please do explain because I legitimately don’t understand what you are proposing and how it would possibly be cost effective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

Do you mean like the one they settled on a few years ago?

Correct. We already moved the start time back from 7:15/7:20 to 7:45 and they're still complaining.

Problem is, a lot of kids are spending that 30 minutes in the hallway because buses drop them at the school at 7:10. So moving the start time didn't actually change much if your child relies on the bus for transportation.

School buses aren't showing up that early. Are you talking about Ride On/Metrobus?

Nope. My teen's bus arrives no later than 7:15, but most of the time she arrives at 7:10. Then sits in a hallway or walks around for 30 minutes. I was told it was due to the bus needing to do the middle school route.

+1. Many students take school bus in high school. The school buses arrive at the school between 7:05-7:15. 30-40min before school starts. The same school bus then goes for the middle school route.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

What accountability measures are in place or will be put in place to make sure we get the adolescent sleep increase you state is essential and will come from making this costly and burdensome shift?

If you are so concerned about the cost and burden, why are you adamant that we must make it MORE costly and MORE burdensome with “accountability measures”? Would you propose changing that the start time to be earlier if sleep metrics didn’t hit what ever targets you deem satisfactory?

The fact that I have to explain to you why we should measure if what we're claiming will happen, does happen, before we spend a large amount of human and financial resources actually says everything about you, your proposal and your integrity.

How could we possibly measure what happens BEFORE spending the human and financial resources? If you want to measure what actually happens, you cannot do that until you have already implemented the changes (and therefore spent the human and financial resources). Adding “accountability metrics” is simply adding MORE human and financial resources after the fact. I am curious what the ultimate point of such metrics would be? If it turned out to not have an impact would you then want to spend EVEN MORE human and financial resources to change everything back?

Please do explain because I legitimately don’t understand what you are proposing and how it would possibly be cost effective.

Very few people are willing to be bus drivers so even if MCPS bought more buses or changed things, who is going to drive those buses? Maybe the parents who want things changed should step up and be drivers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

What accountability measures are in place or will be put in place to make sure we get the adolescent sleep increase you state is essential and will come from making this costly and burdensome shift?

If you are so concerned about the cost and burden, why are you adamant that we must make it MORE costly and MORE burdensome with “accountability measures”? Would you propose changing that the start time to be earlier if sleep metrics didn’t hit what ever targets you deem satisfactory?

The fact that I have to explain to you why we should measure if what we're claiming will happen, does happen, before we spend a large amount of human and financial resources actually says everything about you, your proposal and your integrity.

How could we possibly measure what happens BEFORE spending the human and financial resources? If you want to measure what actually happens, you cannot do that until you have already implemented the changes (and therefore spent the human and financial resources). Adding “accountability metrics” is simply adding MORE human and financial resources after the fact. I am curious what the ultimate point of such metrics would be? If it turned out to not have an impact would you then want to spend EVEN MORE human and financial resources to change everything back?

Please do explain because I legitimately don’t understand what you are proposing and how it would possibly be cost effective.

I didn't say we should measure before. I said the MEANS to measure need to be put in place before. And yes, if it does not in fact improve sleep, we should reverse course.

That's usually how things work. If you try something and it fails to accomplish what you hoped it would, you stop doing it. I guess that's breaking news to you.

And you have 99 questions for me but no answers to the questions that have been posed to you about:

- How the increased sleep you're claiming teens will get will happen with pushing start times back without a mechanism to ensure kids don't squander the extra 30 minutes
- How even if we believe the claims, we'll measure the impact of the change on teens' health and sleep and academic performance (these are the benefits YOUR side is claiming so you need to prove and validate them in order for people to feel justified in going through the inconvenience you're proposing)
- What threshold percentage wise of the teenage population we need to comply with getting more sleep to see the purported benefits you claim will come from pushing back start times

Answer these questions instead of asking me questions.

[Anonymous]

Same buses.

Swap ES and HS start times.
ES has a start time of 9:30 now.

Parents that walk or drive kid to school and they work in the 8am hour can get the ES child to school without needing before care.

School bus riding ES students can be monitored by an upper ES student (bus patrols) at the morning bus stop if an adult is not present. Adult should be at the school bus stop for younger ES students anyways.

ES or community centers have after care and after school programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Same buses.

Swap ES and HS start times.
ES has a start time of 9:30 now.

Parents that walk or drive kid to school and they work in the 8am hour can get the ES child to school without needing before care.

School bus riding ES students can be monitored by an upper ES student (bus patrols) at the morning bus stop if an adult is not present. Adult should be at the school bus stop for younger ES students anyways.

ES or community centers have after care and after school programs.

This is the plan!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Same buses.

Swap ES and HS start times.
ES has a start time of 9:30 now.

Parents that walk or drive kid to school and they work in the 8am hour can get the ES child to school without needing before care.

School bus riding ES students can be monitored by an upper ES student (bus patrols) at the morning bus stop if an adult is not present. Adult should be at the school bus stop for younger ES students anyways.

ES or community centers have after care and after school programs.

You realize not all families have the money for aftercare, don't you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same buses.

Swap ES and HS start times.
ES has a start time of 9:30 now.

Parents that walk or drive kid to school and they work in the 8am hour can get the ES child to school without needing before care.

School bus riding ES students can be monitored by an upper ES student (bus patrols) at the morning bus stop if an adult is not present. Adult should be at the school bus stop for younger ES students anyways.

ES or community centers have after care and after school programs.

You realize not all families have the money for aftercare, don't you?

You realize after programs for free or reduced fee exist at community centers, don't you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same buses.

Swap ES and HS start times.
ES has a start time of 9:30 now.

Parents that walk or drive kid to school and they work in the 8am hour can get the ES child to school without needing before care.

School bus riding ES students can be monitored by an upper ES student (bus patrols) at the morning bus stop if an adult is not present. Adult should be at the school bus stop for younger ES students anyways.

ES or community centers have after care and after school programs.

You realize not all families have the money for aftercare, don't you?

You realize after programs for free or reduced fee exist at community centers, don't you?

You realize each of those programs is limited to 45 seats, don't you?

[Anonymous]

You realize that may be the number of students who actually need that program? ES 8yr old in MD can go home and be alone at home until their HS sibling or parent gets home? You realize this, don't you?