Elite Colleges’ Quiet Fight to Favor Alumni Children

[Anonymous]

When our kids are applying to college we want to give them any help we can.

What about the kid that doesn’t want our help?

What about the kid that would be miserable living the life we led?

What about the kid who goes to our (legacy) school for FREE because we work there (Hoya Hell). This poor kid is stuck.

It never ends well.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

I’ve never met anyone spending more than $5k per year for travel sports, and for most of us it’s around $3K. What sport are people paying $15-20K/year for?

I'm guessing you never met anyone who plays travel hockey. The club fee is $5750, and that's to play and practice from mid-August to Thanksgiving. Tournaments are extra (e.g., CanAm at Lake Placid comes to about $2,000 if the player and both parents go.) Constant driving and hotel rooms adds about $2k more. $500 for the uniform (annually or every other year, depending how quickly your child grows.) A new pair of skates a year: $800-$1000+. One or two new sticks a year @$300+. Not to mention all the other uniform components (pads, helmet, neck guard, mouth guards). If you want a private lesson, it's $100-$150/hour. Skate sharpening: $5-$10/week. If they participate in camps or showcases over the summer, minimum $1,000/per exclusive of travel.

And that's before the high school season even starts. At our high school, the playing fee is $2,600/player.

Don't even make me add it up; I'll vomit. And my kid is not even going to get a whiff of being scouted for a team at a school that would be a good fit for them academically. (Clearly, the reason they play hockey is because they love it -- not part of any college plan.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

I’ve never met anyone spending more than $5k per year for travel sports, and for most of us it’s around $3K. What sport are people paying $15-20K/year for?

If you have kids that compete in national level events, that will drive the costs up. DS is currently at a week-long tournament in Fargo, ND. Some kids will get scholarships. Most will not. Mine will not, for the academic level of school we seek.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

I’ve never met anyone spending more than $5k per year for travel sports, and for most of us it’s around $3K. What sport are people paying $15-20K/year for?

I'm guessing you never met anyone who plays travel hockey. The club fee is $5750, and that's to play and practice from mid-August to Thanksgiving. Tournaments are extra (e.g., CanAm at Lake Placid comes to about $2,000 if the player and both parents go.) Constant driving and hotel rooms adds about $2k more. $500 for the uniform (annually or every other year, depending how quickly your child grows.) A new pair of skates a year: $800-$1000+. One or two new sticks a year @$300+. Not to mention all the other uniform components (pads, helmet, neck guard, mouth guards). If you want a private lesson, it's $100-$150/hour. Skate sharpening: $5-$10/week. If they participate in camps or showcases over the summer, minimum $1,000/per exclusive of travel.

And that's before the high school season even starts. At our high school, the playing fee is $2,600/player.

Don't even make me add it up; I'll vomit. And my kid is not even going to get a whiff of being scouted for a team at a school that would be a good fit for them academically. (Clearly, the reason they play hockey is because they love it -- not part of any college plan.)

Thank you for detailing this! I was shocked someone thinks most only spend $2K on travel. The "costs to travel" each weekend and stay in hotels alone for 9 months of the year (fall spring and summer for Baseball) can alone cost $3-4K and that is nothing to do with the actual travel sport fees. I know people that spend $10K+ for baseball each year and have done so since age 10.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

Years ago I was on the rental car bus returning to the airport after a soccer tournament for DD. DD enjoyed playing soccer, the fees were no hardship, and, barring unforeseen developments, knew she would be a full pay college student. She must've been about 8th or 9th grade as many coaches were scheduled to attend this tournament. Ended up talking to the dad sitting across the aisle. He started pressing on where DD wanted to play, had she been in contact with coaches, etc. When I said it seemed a little early for that and DD wasn't even sure she wanted to go that route, he was just aghast and ended up asking, "why are you even here?"

I came to understand that some parents wanted their kids to play wherever they could get in, especially if the school gave them money. Then another segment of parents wanted their kids recruited, but only to good schools. And some parents could afford to not worry where it was all going. I feel fortunate that we were able to be in that group yet also know that some parents spent a lot of money on travel and may have ended up with more cash for college if they had avoided travel altogether.

This---do it because you can afford it and your kid loves it. Don't do it because you think it's the "ticket" to a sports scholarship, because the odds of that are slim, but the odds your kid burns out and hates the sport are high if you are the one pushing it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

I’ve never met anyone spending more than $5k per year for travel sports, and for most of us it’s around $3K. What sport are people paying $15-20K/year for?

I'm guessing you never met anyone who plays travel hockey. The club fee is $5750, and that's to play and practice from mid-August to Thanksgiving. Tournaments are extra (e.g., CanAm at Lake Placid comes to about $2,000 if the player and both parents go.) Constant driving and hotel rooms adds about $2k more. $500 for the uniform (annually or every other year, depending how quickly your child grows.) A new pair of skates a year: $800-$1000+. One or two new sticks a year @$300+. Not to mention all the other uniform components (pads, helmet, neck guard, mouth guards). If you want a private lesson, it's $100-$150/hour. Skate sharpening: $5-$10/week. If they participate in camps or showcases over the summer, minimum $1,000/per exclusive of travel.

And that's before the high school season even starts. At our high school, the playing fee is $2,600/player.

Don't even make me add it up; I'll vomit. And my kid is not even going to get a whiff of being scouted for a team at a school that would be a good fit for them academically. (Clearly, the reason they play hockey is because they love it -- not part of any college plan.)

Thank you for detailing this! I was shocked someone thinks most only spend $2K on travel. The "costs to travel" each weekend and stay in hotels alone for 9 months of the year (fall spring and summer for Baseball) can alone cost $3-4K and that is nothing to do with the actual travel sport fees. I know people that spend $10K+ for baseball each year and have done so since age 10.

I assume that people whose kids don't play a travel sport think that tennis lessons at the local rinky dink club, or house league hockey that meets once a week is "travel." I mean that in the kindest way. If your child hasn't played on a travel team, you would have no idea.

A friend of mine has a son who has been playing tennis once a week since elementary school. When tryouts came along in ninth grade, she was shocked to find out that virtually every other kid there had been playing 3-5+ days a week year round. She thought that that was something that only elite high school players did. Her son ended up not even trying out, because he didn't want to play five days a week, which is what the high school team schedule demands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

We are not dumping near that much per year into my child's sport. It's more than I care to spend but nowhere near that. And that didn't even start until the past year or so (going into 10th). We have no delusions about scholarships but are hoping for some "merit" aid. Even if that doesn't materialize, at the very least it may be a "hook" into a school that otherwise would not be there. We -can- full pay, though it will be a brutally painful 4 years of doing nothing but funding college to do it. Yay for us for being in that middle bucket of not "poor" but not "rich", yet deemed rich on paper.
Oh well.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:A lot of people lament legacy advantages, but simultaneously want them for their own kids. Including the politicians.

Fully support it. Private colleges should be able to pick who they want for whatever reasons they want.

yes then pay full tax like any other private companies.

Someone always posts this making it clear they do not understand why nonprofit educational institutions have special tax status.

Then please explain it : )

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people lament legacy advantages, but simultaneously want them for their own kids. Including the politicians.

Fully support it. Private colleges should be able to pick who they want for whatever reasons they want.

yes then pay full tax like any other private companies.

Someone always posts this making it clear they do not understand why nonprofit educational institutions have special tax status.

Then please explain it : )

DP - because all nonprofit institutions do. Your church, your country club, the sierra club, the NRA.... all of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

I’ve never met anyone spending more than $5k per year for travel sports, and for most of us it’s around $3K. What sport are people paying $15-20K/year for?

I'm guessing you never met anyone who plays travel hockey. The club fee is $5750, and that's to play and practice from mid-August to Thanksgiving. Tournaments are extra (e.g., CanAm at Lake Placid comes to about $2,000 if the player and both parents go.) Constant driving and hotel rooms adds about $2k more. $500 for the uniform (annually or every other year, depending how quickly your child grows.) A new pair of skates a year: $800-$1000+. One or two new sticks a year @$300+. Not to mention all the other uniform components (pads, helmet, neck guard, mouth guards). If you want a private lesson, it's $100-$150/hour. Skate sharpening: $5-$10/week. If they participate in camps or showcases over the summer, minimum $1,000/per exclusive of travel.

And that's before the high school season even starts. At our high school, the playing fee is $2,600/player.

Don't even make me add it up; I'll vomit. And my kid is not even going to get a whiff of being scouted for a team at a school that would be a good fit for them academically. (Clearly, the reason they play hockey is because they love it -- not part of any college plan.)

Thank you for detailing this! I was shocked someone thinks most only spend $2K on travel. The "costs to travel" each weekend and stay in hotels alone for 9 months of the year (fall spring and summer for Baseball) can alone cost $3-4K and that is nothing to do with the actual travel sport fees. I know people that spend $10K+ for baseball each year and have done so since age 10.

I assume that people whose kids don't play a travel sport think that tennis lessons at the local rinky dink club, or house league hockey that meets once a week is "travel." I mean that in the kindest way. If your child hasn't played on a travel team, you would have no idea.

A friend of mine has a son who has been playing tennis once a week since elementary school. When tryouts came along in ninth grade, she was shocked to find out that virtually every other kid there had been playing 3-5+ days a week year round. She thought that that was something that only elite high school players did. Her son ended up not even trying out, because he didn't want to play five days a week, which is what the high school team schedule demands.

My kids personally haven't done travel, but I've lived in two different areas where it is BIG. So it doesn't take much to understand what that means. And I do have a dancer who did competition team, so I estimate we spent $15K/year on dance, recitals, competitions/travel, etc. And I have one who did not do travel baseball simply because I knew we couldn't manage the traveling every weekend with one parent who is always on the road for work. Dance is different because it's local and only 3-5 competitions per year all being within 2 hours, not every single weekend traveling 2-3 hours.

Common sense seems to indicate that ice skating/hockey will be even more as rink rental would not be cheap (and costumes for Ice skating are ridiculous since the sequins must be sewn on specially to ensure none come off and injure a skater when on the ice).

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Look -- college is not a government program where the "most deserving" whatever that means gets the slot. Getting federal money to do things for the common good does not change that. Colleges get to pick what they want. I get legacy. It grounds the college and helps give it a history that can be shared. But the college gets to decide what it wants. Hey we need more music majors let's lower the scores for them or any other majors.

And this is the exact time that URMs admitted in an earlier time in great numbers have the legacy option. Seems a bit harsh to pull from them.

It will never be a "fair system". There is no way for that to happen. Just like life isn't fair. The fact that some people can afford tutoring and extras to help their kids isn't fair either. The fact that I can afford private schools (don't do that but I could) and can also afford to live in a top public district isn't fair. State schools should not use legacy, but private schools should get to pick what they want. Just like you stated, they do that when they don't admit 90% of their class as engineering, unless it's solely an engineering school. They do that with athletics, and many other admits.
Most of these on DCUM complaining that it isn't fair don't really appreciate all of the advantages they already have over most of the kids in the USA/world.

I think legacy should be abolished and it’s not because of fairness. I don’t think fairness is a reasonable objection to legacy. It’s because legacy are the only group that get admissions advantages without accompanying accomplishments or benefits to the school. I honestly don’t understand how parents can even put their kids through admission as a legacy — it’s like flat-out telling them they are mediocre — but my real objection is that legacy admissions bring a lot of extremely entitled kids to campuses and I think it harms the environment of schools.

Well the school does get a benefit. legacies, especially if it's multiple generations are much more likely to donate after graduation. Really legacy is all about financial issues for the university. Similarly, a Rich legacy whose family actually donates is more likely to get admitted than someone whose parents have not. I agree it's not the best for the school environment, but dont kid yourself, the places that admit by legacy are expensive schools and typically 50%+ are full pay students anyhow, with many being rich kids so that would be there no matter what.

There are no kids getting into anywhere because of legacy that are mediocre. Just not a thing. They are in the group at each school that have the potential to be admitted. No people who make multi million donations may get mediocre kids in. But legacy is just not that.

I agree. Most who get in via legacy have the stats to be admitted or extremely close (and really someone who has a 1500 SAT and 4.2 W GPA are not that much different than a 1580 and 4.4). And that's to be expected because someone growing up in a wealthy family would have had the best educational opportunities available to them all the way thru life and expected to excel.

I've heard it said that people who come from privileged backgrounds have a leg up already in life compared to mere mortals. Hence, part of the reason for holistic admissions.

If you compare two students with the same stats: one from a MC family whose parents went to a B rated state univ and the other whose a child of an ivy league graduate, the MC student probably had to work harder for those stats than the legacy kid.

Isn't that what we are told about poor kids, first gen kids.. that they have to work harder? MC kids have to work harder than UMC.

So, yes, I would expect UMC kids whose parents are ivy league educated to have super high stats, but that kid most likely didn't have to work as hard, or at least had more opportunities than a MC, or LMC kid did with the same stats.

In that way, the MC or even UMC kid whose parents just managed to work hard an save seems to always be screwed - no hooks.

No that UMC kid had to work just as hard.

The unhooked UMC kid is the most disadvantaged. No hooks.

Legacy families have a network that their kids can tap into. Unhooked UMC family doesn't have that network.

Yes. Great for them. Work your butt off and you can have this too.

+1. Don't dream that getting your kids into Harvard will open doors for you. I married into an old money WASP family and they all know each other from Dalton and Deerfield, they smell desperation from miles away, and despise social climbers. Attending an elite college will not create a network for you. The most successful networks are those created by Penn and UM at Ann Harbor.

100 percent true. My son is friends with a bunch of kids like this thru sleep away camp (an old camp in Maine). These are genuine friendships and the boys keep in touch all year long and visit each other over breaks, but the parents definitely have walls up when it comes to "outsiders."

see.... this smacks of privileged elitism that wants to keep the "others" out of the legacy institutions.

Eerily similar to how they kept Jews out with legacy admissions way back when.

OMG, you posted this a million times. You are not a discriminated Jew. You are a MC government contractor salivating to get his child into investment banking or consulting so someone can finally make 500K in our family and take you to Europe so you can post all over Facebook and make your siblings and HS acquaintances jealous.

This is the first time I read someone highlight how legacy preferences were born of a desire to keep Jews out of elite schools on this thread, so it probably isn’t the millionth time. Particularly because there aren’t a million posts here. The posts I find really tedious are the dim bulb posts like yours that try to assume they know the characteristics of those against legacy preferences. Because if you were actually familiar with elite schools and their students you would know that many students and Alums of elite schools are against legacy preferences because of their clear link to anti-Semitism and racism. The alums who are up in arms about getting rid of legacy preferences are the ones with mediocre offspring.

I"m the PP who posted about the roots of legacy admissions.

1. I work in the private industry, my entire life, and actually, now I'm self employed. So, the ^PP is a dumba$$ for making assumptions about me.
2. I've been to Europe, many times. As a matter of fact, just got back from the UK, so again, you are a dumba$$ for making assumptions about me.
3. Our HHI is close to $400K
4. What I stated is true.. look it up. Legacy admissions is rooted in racism. It was started by ivies to keep the Jews out. What ethnicity do you think I am? Again, you are a dumba$$ for making assumptions about me.
5. The PP is correct.. there have been several opnion articles written by legacies stating that it was time to remove legacies in admissions.

Just in case I need to repeat.. you are a dumba$$ for making a lot of assumptions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

I’ve never met anyone spending more than $5k per year for travel sports, and for most of us it’s around $3K. What sport are people paying $15-20K/year for?

I'm guessing you never met anyone who plays travel hockey. The club fee is $5750, and that's to play and practice from mid-August to Thanksgiving. Tournaments are extra (e.g., CanAm at Lake Placid comes to about $2,000 if the player and both parents go.) Constant driving and hotel rooms adds about $2k more. $500 for the uniform (annually or every other year, depending how quickly your child grows.) A new pair of skates a year: $800-$1000+. One or two new sticks a year @$300+. Not to mention all the other uniform components (pads, helmet, neck guard, mouth guards). If you want a private lesson, it's $100-$150/hour. Skate sharpening: $5-$10/week. If they participate in camps or showcases over the summer, minimum $1,000/per exclusive of travel.

And that's before the high school season even starts. At our high school, the playing fee is $2,600/player.

Don't even make me add it up; I'll vomit. And my kid is not even going to get a whiff of being scouted for a team at a school that would be a good fit for them academically. (Clearly, the reason they play hockey is because they love it -- not part of any college plan.)

Thank you for detailing this! I was shocked someone thinks most only spend $2K on travel. The "costs to travel" each weekend and stay in hotels alone for 9 months of the year (fall spring and summer for Baseball) can alone cost $3-4K and that is nothing to do with the actual travel sport fees. I know people that spend $10K+ for baseball each year and have done so since age 10.

I assume that people whose kids don't play a travel sport think that tennis lessons at the local rinky dink club, or house league hockey that meets once a week is "travel." I mean that in the kindest way. If your child hasn't played on a travel team, you would have no idea.

A friend of mine has a son who has been playing tennis once a week since elementary school. When tryouts came along in ninth grade, she was shocked to find out that virtually every other kid there had been playing 3-5+ days a week year round. She thought that that was something that only elite high school players did. Her son ended up not even trying out, because he didn't want to play five days a week, which is what the high school team schedule demands.

Yes, we just saw this last spring with my rising 8th grader's soccer teammates (mostly rising 9th graders) who had no clue that HS soccer requires either practice or a game 6 days a week, not to mention that tryouts take place in mid-August when many of those families already had vacations or camps booked. I don't think more than 1-2 of them will end up even trying out for their HS team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

I’ve never met anyone spending more than $5k per year for travel sports, and for most of us it’s around $3K. What sport are people paying $15-20K/year for?

I'm guessing you never met anyone who plays travel hockey. The club fee is $5750, and that's to play and practice from mid-August to Thanksgiving. Tournaments are extra (e.g., CanAm at Lake Placid comes to about $2,000 if the player and both parents go.) Constant driving and hotel rooms adds about $2k more. $500 for the uniform (annually or every other year, depending how quickly your child grows.) A new pair of skates a year: $800-$1000+. One or two new sticks a year @$300+. Not to mention all the other uniform components (pads, helmet, neck guard, mouth guards). If you want a private lesson, it's $100-$150/hour. Skate sharpening: $5-$10/week. If they participate in camps or showcases over the summer, minimum $1,000/per exclusive of travel.

And that's before the high school season even starts. At our high school, the playing fee is $2,600/player.

Don't even make me add it up; I'll vomit. And my kid is not even going to get a whiff of being scouted for a team at a school that would be a good fit for them academically. (Clearly, the reason they play hockey is because they love it -- not part of any college plan.)

Thank you for detailing this! I was shocked someone thinks most only spend $2K on travel. The "costs to travel" each weekend and stay in hotels alone for 9 months of the year (fall spring and summer for Baseball) can alone cost $3-4K and that is nothing to do with the actual travel sport fees. I know people that spend $10K+ for baseball each year and have done so since age 10.

I assume that people whose kids don't play a travel sport think that tennis lessons at the local rinky dink club, or house league hockey that meets once a week is "travel." I mean that in the kindest way. If your child hasn't played on a travel team, you would have no idea.

A friend of mine has a son who has been playing tennis once a week since elementary school. When tryouts came along in ninth grade, she was shocked to find out that virtually every other kid there had been playing 3-5+ days a week year round. She thought that that was something that only elite high school players did. Her son ended up not even trying out, because he didn't want to play five days a week, which is what the high school team schedule demands.

My kids personally haven't done travel, but I've lived in two different areas where it is BIG. So it doesn't take much to understand what that means. And I do have a dancer who did competition team, so I estimate we spent $15K/year on dance, recitals, competitions/travel, etc. And I have one who did not do travel baseball simply because I knew we couldn't manage the traveling every weekend with one parent who is always on the road for work. Dance is different because it's local and only 3-5 competitions per year all being within 2 hours, not every single weekend traveling 2-3 hours.

Common sense seems to indicate that ice skating/hockey will be even more as rink rental would not be cheap (and costumes for Ice skating are ridiculous since the sequins must be sewn on specially to ensure none come off and injure a skater when on the ice).

This is all making me feel much less resentful of travel soccer fees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy is a problem, but kids getting into schools because of sports is an even bigger problem. Those two student populations take a significant number of spots at top schools. A kid could be busting their ass, and an athlete who has a weaker transcript & test scores will get it.

If it's that easy, teach your kid how to play lacrosse.

My kid used athletic talent to access high academic college. I can't control that that is the system, so we played that game, but it's a silly criteria to use to help gain admittance to a place for academic pursuits.

This is our approach. I don't control the system. I don't like it. But I'm not changing it. So we are going to try to use sports as a hook in. So far, so good. We'll see how DC lands in the end (high stats -so far- and high level of play in the sport).

I think parents should play with whatever cards they were dealt with because the college admission process is a brutal game. My neighbor played the sports card and their child is at Harvard. Great kid, but his mother was very strategic about the college admission process from the time this kid was in middle school. Sports can take you places. As a matter of fact every child that I know who has received a full ride at top universities all played sports. Good luck to your child.

Doesn't work out that way for most sports kids. Just look at the number of people dumping $15-20K/year into travel sports. Then consider how many full scholarships there are in DI, DII and DIII schools in the USA. The odds are still against you (keep in mind that beyond DI, most kids are not there on FULL scholarships, some are but not most). In reality, if you saved and invested the $15-20K/year spent since age 7 in travel sports, you would have more than enough to pay for Harvard or any other $80K/year university.

I've watched several families dedicate their lives (and their wallets) to sports from a young age in hope that their kid would get a scholarship. Very few are even playing in college with a scholarship. Most that are on even partial scholarship are at a D3 school. Their kid could have easily gotten into those D3 safety schools (none are elite or even 2nd tier) on academics alone and parents could have easily paid for college with the money from sports.

I’ve never met anyone spending more than $5k per year for travel sports, and for most of us it’s around $3K. What sport are people paying $15-20K/year for?

$2500-3k is base fee (some clubs higher) It doesn’t include uniforms, travel, hotels, and usually camps/additional training. And winter Futsal league/tournaments in additional. We probably pay around $6k per kid each year, if not more. I don’t want to add it up

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I avoid medical or any professional service by a provider that received their education and training because they were given priority because family had connections.
Nepotism will always happen. It doesn’t take a lot of effort to tease out a legacy.
As a side, I think it is sad that a person feels obligated to follow in someone else’s footsteps.

Another delusional one. Like you'd know.


A simple internet search. Don’t you look at the bio of a Dr before you make an appointment?

Often times it is mentioned in their bio. You can take your Internet search further to find out family history.