Received an email that DS teacher quit Friday.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

No one here has any idea what is happening with this teacher in her personal life.

They shouldn't quit. people were not quitting their jobs like this 3 years ago. Biden needs to banned this and do something to stop people from quitting. MY DD English teacher quit last month, she said quit and ain't coming back. It's a sad day in America. November can't come soon enough, I will be voting and something will be done to stop the labor shortage.

You can't force labor. People aren't slaves. That is a route to have zero teachers available to teach in the fall.

The ones who quit midyear won't be working this fall anyway. Maybe you need to rethink your route.

Yes, but forcing people into contracts they can't quit deters the already dwindling supply of teachers to not take on a new contract.

No, it doesn't. All teacher contracts require a 9 month commitment. There's nothing onerous or bad about that. It doesn't deter anyone.

There is not a clause in it that forces you not to quit. In fact, it's them telling you they are committing to you for 9 months and generally teachers are generally professionally agreeing to stay then also. But they can't do more than that like PP wants--forcing people not to quit--without creating a deterrent. If someone is at a breaking point, or needs to move, or wants out of the profession they can quit when they want. It sucks for parents, other teachers, their students, but instilling draconian 'no quit' policies would likely not survive a legal test and make a profession that is struggling to attract people at the worst rate since it's been measured in even worse shape.

You can't force people not to quit. But you can also acknowledge that quitting in the middle of the year is really bad for parents, other teachers, and students. It should not be the norm for a salaried skilled professional and should only happen under dire circumstances. You wonder why kids are detached and anxious. I guess they should recognize that the adults in their lives are only there while it works for them and should feel terrible if they are disappointed when these adults leave without any warning.

Did you not read that I wrote "it sucks for parents, other teachers, their students..." Teaching has long held to this professional norm. Quitting mid-year was exceedingly rare and was long done for only extenuating circumstances. But they've had enough. The mandated policies at the federal level lingering since NCLB have added up, piling up with special education laws with grossly inadequate support. Thrown in your state governor creating a tip line for people to report their teachers, teachers feel like the social contract is broken and they don't have to honor it anymore. I'm not saying we want this for teachers at all. I'm just telling everyone who is still tut-tutting teachers they think are bad that it's a five alarm fire in the profession. I'm not a teacher myself, I track the data in my job and it is STARTLING.

I agree with you. Reading your additional comments, I think we are in complete agreement on the fact that teaching has become an increasingly undesirable profession for a variety of reasons, and the high level of dissatisfaction has created some checked-out and ineffective teachers. The teachers in my life complain more about administrative burdens, impossible workload, and clueless administrators than they do about students and parents. Teachers are burned out, and as a result, the current level of professionalism accepted in teaching does not align with other educated professions. I'm sorry, but it is true. I don't think we are to accomplish the needed reform unless when admit that. My oldest kids are now adults, but I can say that the slide began long before the pandemic and has nothing to do with the tip line (although that's ridiculous). Regular attendance, communication, timely grading, and consistent and respectful treatment of students and parents - all of the components that command respect, are harder to find than ever in public schools. Whether there are good reasons for burnout is beside the point. The decline in professionalism hurts kids, yet we aren't allowed to talk about it because more teachers might leave the profession. It's a vicious cycle. When kids get the bare minimum from some teachers, there's no backup to get them caught up. That's not fair to anyone, but most of all, the kids.

I'm the PP. I don't agree with you that there was a longer history of decline in teacher professionalism. I think despite a lot of demands, they maintained a fairly solid standard of professionalism. In any profession there is a range of course, but I would say on the whole it has been fairly steady for decades. What I am referring to is that teachers are burnt out and feel that the social contract has been broken. Highly skilled, committed and experienced teachers who wanted to be teachers for life, that had teaching as core to their identity are leaving the profession. Less skilled and committed people are also leaving the profession. Far fewer people of any skill level are entering the profession. Some less professional ones are quitting mid-year, but far, far more have either already left or are planning to leave this spring. They don't want to teach in public schools, they don't want to teach in charter schools, they don't want to teach in private or parochial schools. They are done. I think parents have yet to wrap their heads around this reality.

DP. I'm not sure what you think parents can or should be doing about this, besides just laying down and crying. You may blame parents 100% for the current teacher crisis. Okay. Not sure what parents can do to ameliorate it or to improve teacher conditions in the near term. Obama attempted to overturn NCLB with the ESSA but it doesn't seem to have succeeded in improving things. If I contact Richmond, should I ask for less oversight? More SOLs? Fewer SOLs but better written? Relaxing state (and federal) requirements related to sped students? What, exactly?

I think parents can help by being engaged in their kids education. I think a higher percentage of parents are checked out of what is happening at school and blames any issues with school on the Teachers and fails to look at what they are doing, or not doing, and how that effects their kids education.

For example, Distance learning saw a lot of parents complaining that their B/C kid was flunking classes and the parents blamed the Teachers. What many of those parents failed to understand is that their B/C kid was a B/C kid because the Teachers were able to get the kid to produce some work in class that could be graded. The kid learned enough by sitting in class and doing in class assignments to do ok on the tests. Teachers could track a kid down in study hall or at lunch and remind them to turn in an assignment. Many kids were not getting that B/C because the kid was making their best effort but because the Teachers could nag them in person to do their work. Teachers were not able to do that during distance learning and those B/C's turned to F/Ds.

The kids who had been working to earn those B/Cs probably had parents at home making sure that they were doing school work and making some type of effort. Those kids kept their B/Cs during distance learnings.

Too many parents are uninvolved with their kids education. They turn everything over to the school and their kids Teachers. They only get involved when the kid is failing or getting a D and then they are upset with the school/Teachers and not asking what the kid had done to earn that grade. We saw that last year as parents were bemoaning distance learning, which sucked, and were openly discussing that they didn't care if their kid was logged on. What was the point? The Teachers were in jammies and phoning it in so why should their kid log on or do the assigned work? This ignored the fact that most Teachers were not in jammies and had worked hard to translate in class learning material to virtual learning, which is a totally different skill set. And the fact that Teachers did not have the same methods available to them to encourage a kid to complete work.

A good percentage of parents forgot that education relies on team work and that they need to be working with their kid at home as well as communicating with the Teachers. Heck, there is a parent posting in the ES Age forum wondering if she should doing more for her 7 year old who is smart and ahead. But Mom doesn't like to read so she has not read to her kid. And Mom is not interested in asking abut school or talking about school with her kid. Her kid is acting up in class, it is clear the Teachers are contacting her about that, but she doesn't mention anything that she is doing to deal with the kids behavior at school, she seems to be leaving that all to the Teachers. She is missing that her lack of interest in her kids schooling is sending a message to her kid that school isn't important and that the kid can behave how they want in school. What do you think is going to happen in High School?

You make good points, but you should also consider that parental burnout is a real thing. The factors that contribute to teacher burnout - lack of respect, lack of autonomy, low pay or lack of appreciation, excessive workloads, and unfair demands - exist for parents of school-aged children as well. People check out when they are overwhelmed and feel that nothing they do is good enough. Lack of autonomy is a huge factor in burnout, and the reality is that last year's distance learning was completely out of parents' control, from the delivery method to the hours, presenting challenges that weren't fairly acknowledged in public discourse. Yes, we know that teachers help to encourage students to do their best. That's why the majority of parents don't homeschool. Removing the in-person aspect of the teacher-student relationship and then blaming parents for not doing enough to compensate for an extended period of education delivered in a manner they didn't choose or have a voice in developing is unproductive and unfair.

There is no doubt that parents and teachers have burnt out in the last 2 years. But ultimately, your kids are calling you (instead of their teachers) "mom". The way you describe the teacher-student-parent relationship feels like your kids are liabilities, and you and your kids' teachers have 50/50 shareholding.

-- a parent

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Teachers who don't want to teach should quit. Bitter, burnt-out teachers are terrible for children, both academically and emotionally. I'd rather have fewer good teachers than have my child stuck with a dud.

Your kid won’t HAVE a teacher, fool, or they’ll be in a “class” of 60 kids.

You people don’t live in reality.

That's better than a bad teacher. It really is.

Every teacher becomes a "bad" teacher under these conditions.

It will put the kibosh on 90 minutes of small group instruction + centers/stations. That's not necessarily a bad thing, for the teacher or for the students.

That’s what I’ve done for the fourth quarter. After three quarters of burning myself out trying to plan, prepare, and implement the workshop model, I’ve stopped. There simply is not enough time to effectively plan and prepare all of it. Managing student behaviors was a nightmare. 30 minutes of my math block is supposed to be stations and small group time. That’s immediately followed by another 20 minutes of a remediation block.

+1
The workshop model is one of those things that has been researched to be effective for student learning--and there is reasonably good evidence it does when implemented correctly under good conditions. But teachers need time to implement it well, and classroom conditions that are conducive to its success. That's not where we are at right now.

Not really. Or no better than others teaching methods.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

The workshop model is one of those things that has been researched to be effective for student learning--and there is reasonably good evidence it does when implemented correctly under good conditions. But teachers need time to implement it well, and classroom conditions that are conducive to its success. That's not where we are at right now.

Not really. Or no better than others teaching methods.

+1 on the not really. Show me the research.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

Why should she wait six weeks? Teachers don't get paid for the summer. So her leaving now for a better job means a better financial future long-term. OP doesn't like it I'm sure she knows were the sub sign-up forms are. It won't even be that long, just six weeks.

Wow, the disrespect towards teachers just doesn't stop.

DP: Why is this disrespect? Teachers are supposed to give up better financial offers just because you think they should conform to your idea of professionalism? They owe it to their students? The same teachers who routinely get pink slips every spring and often don't know if/where they are going to work the next year until mid-summer? The same teachers who have been putting up with a ton of crap from so many angles the past few years? Putting teachers on a pedestal who will suffer through anything--give up their own and their family's well-being-- for their students is not "respect" it's an unreasonable expectation. To couch it as 'respect' is just extra gaslighting. These and many other unreasonable demands are what is gutting the teacher profession. Sure, I'd prefer a teacher--or any worker-- not quit without notice but I can totally understand why someone would if they are at the breaking point. And only hr and the teacher know the actual situation, not OP. But if we don't course correct on demands on teachers, the issue is not whether you'll have the same teacher for the next month or so, but whether you'll have any at all next year.

Spare us your union BS. Unprofessional behavior is unprofessional behavior in any field.

Live in denial of the growing teacher shortage then.

Devaluing professionalism will surely solve the problem!

People in the private sector job hop ALL the time. You get an offer for more pay, better benefits, you take it because the offer doesn’t lash forever. Teaching is the ONLY job where we assign some moral failure to leaving it. I’m a teacher and I enjoy it but let’s be clear, this is my job. Just like your job is your job. It is not my life. The job does not love me back. If I die tomorrow, they will list my position, fill it, and move on. My number one priority ALWAYS is my family and my own health. As it should be for everyone.

I'll add to that vets, docs, and nurses -- all of which are professions experiencing record burnout right now, after a pandemic which placed more burden on them as helping professionals and yet which so many others felt fine about dumping their frustrations and anger on.

No we don't. People expect vets, docs and nurses to move on if they get a better offer elsewhere. No one expects an PA to stick with a job where there is another job down the road offering more money or better working conditions

PAs, vets, lawyers, and other professionals may not abandon existing responsibilities (ongoing care of patients, pending litigation, etc.) without alternative arrangements. Lawyers need permission to withdraw from cases. Medical professionals, including veterinarians, can't abandon patients with ongoing medical conditions needing management without allowing their patients or clients a reasonable opportunity to obtain other care. Doing otherwise would violate the standard of care, which can result in an action against the professional license. In these discussions, there is a distinction between leaving a job to make more money and the circumstances when a professional's obligation to existing patients or clients can be abandoned. People are arguing that students' needs play no role in discussions about teacher departures, which is in contrast to other these other professions.

Students and parents aren't teachers clients or employers. Yes, schools are required to put your child somewhere, get an adult in the room, but the teacher isn't hired by you or your student so is not required. Schools ARE providing replacement situations--your kid isn't locked out of the school with nowhere to go--you just aren't happy that they have to.

Astonishing that grown ass adults need this explained to them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

Why should she wait six weeks? Teachers don't get paid for the summer. So her leaving now for a better job means a better financial future long-term. OP doesn't like it I'm sure she knows were the sub sign-up forms are. It won't even be that long, just six weeks.

Wow, the disrespect towards teachers just doesn't stop.

DP: Why is this disrespect? Teachers are supposed to give up better financial offers just because you think they should conform to your idea of professionalism? They owe it to their students? The same teachers who routinely get pink slips every spring and often don't know if/where they are going to work the next year until mid-summer? The same teachers who have been putting up with a ton of crap from so many angles the past few years? Putting teachers on a pedestal who will suffer through anything--give up their own and their family's well-being-- for their students is not "respect" it's an unreasonable expectation. To couch it as 'respect' is just extra gaslighting. These and many other unreasonable demands are what is gutting the teacher profession. Sure, I'd prefer a teacher--or any worker-- not quit without notice but I can totally understand why someone would if they are at the breaking point. And only hr and the teacher know the actual situation, not OP. But if we don't course correct on demands on teachers, the issue is not whether you'll have the same teacher for the next month or so, but whether you'll have any at all next year.

Spare us your union BS. Unprofessional behavior is unprofessional behavior in any field.

Live in denial of the growing teacher shortage then.

Devaluing professionalism will surely solve the problem!

People in the private sector job hop ALL the time. You get an offer for more pay, better benefits, you take it because the offer doesn’t lash forever. Teaching is the ONLY job where we assign some moral failure to leaving it. I’m a teacher and I enjoy it but let’s be clear, this is my job. Just like your job is your job. It is not my life. The job does not love me back. If I die tomorrow, they will list my position, fill it, and move on. My number one priority ALWAYS is my family and my own health. As it should be for everyone.

I'll add to that vets, docs, and nurses -- all of which are professions experiencing record burnout right now, after a pandemic which placed more burden on them as helping professionals and yet which so many others felt fine about dumping their frustrations and anger on.

No we don't. People expect vets, docs and nurses to move on if they get a better offer elsewhere. No one expects an PA to stick with a job where there is another job down the road offering more money or better working conditions

PAs, vets, lawyers, and other professionals may not abandon existing responsibilities (ongoing care of patients, pending litigation, etc.) without alternative arrangements. Lawyers need permission to withdraw from cases. Medical professionals, including veterinarians, can't abandon patients with ongoing medical conditions needing management without allowing their patients or clients a reasonable opportunity to obtain other care. Doing otherwise would violate the standard of care, which can result in an action against the professional license. In these discussions, there is a distinction between leaving a job to make more money and the circumstances when a professional's obligation to existing patients or clients can be abandoned. People are arguing that students' needs play no role in discussions about teacher departures, which is in contrast to other these other professions.

Students and parents aren't teachers clients or employers. Yes, schools are required to put your child somewhere, get an adult in the room, but the teacher isn't hired by you or your student so is not required. Schools ARE providing replacement situations--your kid isn't locked out of the school with nowhere to go--you just aren't happy that they have to.

There was a long post here just this week of a parent who said their ONLY responsibility for their kids’ education was that their kids had food to eat, a roof over their head and had slept before they dumped them off at the school doorstep.

Asinine and delusional.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

No one here has any idea what is happening with this teacher in her personal life.

They shouldn't quit. people were not quitting their jobs like this 3 years ago. Biden needs to banned this and do something to stop people from quitting. MY DD English teacher quit last month, she said quit and ain't coming back. It's a sad day in America. November can't come soon enough, I will be voting and something will be done to stop the labor shortage.

You can't force labor. People aren't slaves. That is a route to have zero teachers available to teach in the fall.

The ones who quit midyear won't be working this fall anyway. Maybe you need to rethink your route.

Yes, but forcing people into contracts they can't quit deters the already dwindling supply of teachers to not take on a new contract.

No, it doesn't. All teacher contracts require a 9 month commitment. There's nothing onerous or bad about that. It doesn't deter anyone.

There is not a clause in it that forces you not to quit. In fact, it's them telling you they are committing to you for 9 months and generally teachers are generally professionally agreeing to stay then also. But they can't do more than that like PP wants--forcing people not to quit--without creating a deterrent. If someone is at a breaking point, or needs to move, or wants out of the profession they can quit when they want. It sucks for parents, other teachers, their students, but instilling draconian 'no quit' policies would likely not survive a legal test and make a profession that is struggling to attract people at the worst rate since it's been measured in even worse shape.

You can't force people not to quit. But you can also acknowledge that quitting in the middle of the year is really bad for parents, other teachers, and students. It should not be the norm for a salaried skilled professional and should only happen under dire circumstances. You wonder why kids are detached and anxious. I guess they should recognize that the adults in their lives are only there while it works for them and should feel terrible if they are disappointed when these adults leave without any warning.

Did you not read that I wrote "it sucks for parents, other teachers, their students..." Teaching has long held to this professional norm. Quitting mid-year was exceedingly rare and was long done for only extenuating circumstances. But they've had enough. The mandated policies at the federal level lingering since NCLB have added up, piling up with special education laws with grossly inadequate support. Thrown in your state governor creating a tip line for people to report their teachers, teachers feel like the social contract is broken and they don't have to honor it anymore. I'm not saying we want this for teachers at all. I'm just telling everyone who is still tut-tutting teachers they think are bad that it's a five alarm fire in the profession. I'm not a teacher myself, I track the data in my job and it is STARTLING.

I agree with you. Reading your additional comments, I think we are in complete agreement on the fact that teaching has become an increasingly undesirable profession for a variety of reasons, and the high level of dissatisfaction has created some checked-out and ineffective teachers. The teachers in my life complain more about administrative burdens, impossible workload, and clueless administrators than they do about students and parents. Teachers are burned out, and as a result, the current level of professionalism accepted in teaching does not align with other educated professions. I'm sorry, but it is true. I don't think we are to accomplish the needed reform unless when admit that. My oldest kids are now adults, but I can say that the slide began long before the pandemic and has nothing to do with the tip line (although that's ridiculous). Regular attendance, communication, timely grading, and consistent and respectful treatment of students and parents - all of the components that command respect, are harder to find than ever in public schools. Whether there are good reasons for burnout is beside the point. The decline in professionalism hurts kids, yet we aren't allowed to talk about it because more teachers might leave the profession. It's a vicious cycle. When kids get the bare minimum from some teachers, there's no backup to get them caught up. That's not fair to anyone, but most of all, the kids.

I'm the PP. I don't agree with you that there was a longer history of decline in teacher professionalism. I think despite a lot of demands, they maintained a fairly solid standard of professionalism. In any profession there is a range of course, but I would say on the whole it has been fairly steady for decades. What I am referring to is that teachers are burnt out and feel that the social contract has been broken. Highly skilled, committed and experienced teachers who wanted to be teachers for life, that had teaching as core to their identity are leaving the profession. Less skilled and committed people are also leaving the profession. Far fewer people of any skill level are entering the profession. Some less professional ones are quitting mid-year, but far, far more have either already left or are planning to leave this spring. They don't want to teach in public schools, they don't want to teach in charter schools, they don't want to teach in private or parochial schools. They are done. I think parents have yet to wrap their heads around this reality.

DP. I'm not sure what you think parents can or should be doing about this, besides just laying down and crying. You may blame parents 100% for the current teacher crisis. Okay. Not sure what parents can do to ameliorate it or to improve teacher conditions in the near term. Obama attempted to overturn NCLB with the ESSA but it doesn't seem to have succeeded in improving things. If I contact Richmond, should I ask for less oversight? More SOLs? Fewer SOLs but better written? Relaxing state (and federal) requirements related to sped students? What, exactly?

I think parents can help by being engaged in their kids education. I think a higher percentage of parents are checked out of what is happening at school and blames any issues with school on the Teachers and fails to look at what they are doing, or not doing, and how that effects their kids education.

For example, Distance learning saw a lot of parents complaining that their B/C kid was flunking classes and the parents blamed the Teachers. What many of those parents failed to understand is that their B/C kid was a B/C kid because the Teachers were able to get the kid to produce some work in class that could be graded. The kid learned enough by sitting in class and doing in class assignments to do ok on the tests. Teachers could track a kid down in study hall or at lunch and remind them to turn in an assignment. Many kids were not getting that B/C because the kid was making their best effort but because the Teachers could nag them in person to do their work. Teachers were not able to do that during distance learning and those B/C's turned to F/Ds.

The kids who had been working to earn those B/Cs probably had parents at home making sure that they were doing school work and making some type of effort. Those kids kept their B/Cs during distance learnings.

Too many parents are uninvolved with their kids education. They turn everything over to the school and their kids Teachers. They only get involved when the kid is failing or getting a D and then they are upset with the school/Teachers and not asking what the kid had done to earn that grade. We saw that last year as parents were bemoaning distance learning, which sucked, and were openly discussing that they didn't care if their kid was logged on. What was the point? The Teachers were in jammies and phoning it in so why should their kid log on or do the assigned work? This ignored the fact that most Teachers were not in jammies and had worked hard to translate in class learning material to virtual learning, which is a totally different skill set. And the fact that Teachers did not have the same methods available to them to encourage a kid to complete work.

A good percentage of parents forgot that education relies on team work and that they need to be working with their kid at home as well as communicating with the Teachers. Heck, there is a parent posting in the ES Age forum wondering if she should doing more for her 7 year old who is smart and ahead. But Mom doesn't like to read so she has not read to her kid. And Mom is not interested in asking abut school or talking about school with her kid. Her kid is acting up in class, it is clear the Teachers are contacting her about that, but she doesn't mention anything that she is doing to deal with the kids behavior at school, she seems to be leaving that all to the Teachers. She is missing that her lack of interest in her kids schooling is sending a message to her kid that school isn't important and that the kid can behave how they want in school. What do you think is going to happen in High School?

You make good points, but you should also consider that parental burnout is a real thing. The factors that contribute to teacher burnout - lack of respect, lack of autonomy, low pay or lack of appreciation, excessive workloads, and unfair demands - exist for parents of school-aged children as well. People check out when they are overwhelmed and feel that nothing they do is good enough. Lack of autonomy is a huge factor in burnout, and the reality is that last year's distance learning was completely out of parents' control, from the delivery method to the hours, presenting challenges that weren't fairly acknowledged in public discourse. Yes, we know that teachers help to encourage students to do their best. That's why the majority of parents don't homeschool. Removing the in-person aspect of the teacher-student relationship and then blaming parents for not doing enough to compensate for an extended period of education delivered in a manner they didn't choose or have a voice in developing is unproductive and unfair.

Sorry, but no. We ALL were burned out and overwhelmed by the pandemic and distance learning. It was exhausting and incredibly difficult. Too damn bad. You don’t get to check out of responsibly parenting your children. So many excuses.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

Why should she wait six weeks? Teachers don't get paid for the summer. So her leaving now for a better job means a better financial future long-term. OP doesn't like it I'm sure she knows were the sub sign-up forms are. It won't even be that long, just six weeks.

Wow, the disrespect towards teachers just doesn't stop.

DP: Why is this disrespect? Teachers are supposed to give up better financial offers just because you think they should conform to your idea of professionalism? They owe it to their students? The same teachers who routinely get pink slips every spring and often don't know if/where they are going to work the next year until mid-summer? The same teachers who have been putting up with a ton of crap from so many angles the past few years? Putting teachers on a pedestal who will suffer through anything--give up their own and their family's well-being-- for their students is not "respect" it's an unreasonable expectation. To couch it as 'respect' is just extra gaslighting. These and many other unreasonable demands are what is gutting the teacher profession. Sure, I'd prefer a teacher--or any worker-- not quit without notice but I can totally understand why someone would if they are at the breaking point. And only hr and the teacher know the actual situation, not OP. But if we don't course correct on demands on teachers, the issue is not whether you'll have the same teacher for the next month or so, but whether you'll have any at all next year.

Spare us your union BS. Unprofessional behavior is unprofessional behavior in any field.

Live in denial of the growing teacher shortage then.

Devaluing professionalism will surely solve the problem!

People in the private sector job hop ALL the time. You get an offer for more pay, better benefits, you take it because the offer doesn’t lash forever. Teaching is the ONLY job where we assign some moral failure to leaving it. I’m a teacher and I enjoy it but let’s be clear, this is my job. Just like your job is your job. It is not my life. The job does not love me back. If I die tomorrow, they will list my position, fill it, and move on. My number one priority ALWAYS is my family and my own health. As it should be for everyone.

I'll add to that vets, docs, and nurses -- all of which are professions experiencing record burnout right now, after a pandemic which placed more burden on them as helping professionals and yet which so many others felt fine about dumping their frustrations and anger on.

No we don't. People expect vets, docs and nurses to move on if they get a better offer elsewhere. No one expects an PA to stick with a job where there is another job down the road offering more money or better working conditions

PAs, vets, lawyers, and other professionals may not abandon existing responsibilities (ongoing care of patients, pending litigation, etc.) without alternative arrangements. Lawyers need permission to withdraw from cases. Medical professionals, including veterinarians, can't abandon patients with ongoing medical conditions needing management without allowing their patients or clients a reasonable opportunity to obtain other care. Doing otherwise would violate the standard of care, which can result in an action against the professional license. In these discussions, there is a distinction between leaving a job to make more money and the circumstances when a professional's obligation to existing patients or clients can be abandoned. People are arguing that students' needs play no role in discussions about teacher departures, which is in contrast to other these other professions.

Students and parents aren't teachers clients or employers. Yes, schools are required to put your child somewhere, get an adult in the room, but the teacher isn't hired by you or your student so is not required. Schools ARE providing replacement situations--your kid isn't locked out of the school with nowhere to go--you just aren't happy that they have to.

You admit it. Students and their families are nothing in the process of education. Teaching is just a job that exists as a relationship between the district employer and teachers. What's best for students and their families is irrelevant, and they should shut up and be satisfied with whatever they are given.

Grow up. You sound like a melodramatic 8th grade girl.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

Why should she wait six weeks? Teachers don't get paid for the summer. So her leaving now for a better job means a better financial future long-term. OP doesn't like it I'm sure she knows were the sub sign-up forms are. It won't even be that long, just six weeks.

Wow, the disrespect towards teachers just doesn't stop.

DP: Why is this disrespect? Teachers are supposed to give up better financial offers just because you think they should conform to your idea of professionalism? They owe it to their students? The same teachers who routinely get pink slips every spring and often don't know if/where they are going to work the next year until mid-summer? The same teachers who have been putting up with a ton of crap from so many angles the past few years? Putting teachers on a pedestal who will suffer through anything--give up their own and their family's well-being-- for their students is not "respect" it's an unreasonable expectation. To couch it as 'respect' is just extra gaslighting. These and many other unreasonable demands are what is gutting the teacher profession. Sure, I'd prefer a teacher--or any worker-- not quit without notice but I can totally understand why someone would if they are at the breaking point. And only hr and the teacher know the actual situation, not OP. But if we don't course correct on demands on teachers, the issue is not whether you'll have the same teacher for the next month or so, but whether you'll have any at all next year.

Spare us your union BS. Unprofessional behavior is unprofessional behavior in any field.

Live in denial of the growing teacher shortage then.

Devaluing professionalism will surely solve the problem!

People in the private sector job hop ALL the time. You get an offer for more pay, better benefits, you take it because the offer doesn’t lash forever. Teaching is the ONLY job where we assign some moral failure to leaving it. I’m a teacher and I enjoy it but let’s be clear, this is my job. Just like your job is your job. It is not my life. The job does not love me back. If I die tomorrow, they will list my position, fill it, and move on. My number one priority ALWAYS is my family and my own health. As it should be for everyone.

I'll add to that vets, docs, and nurses -- all of which are professions experiencing record burnout right now, after a pandemic which placed more burden on them as helping professionals and yet which so many others felt fine about dumping their frustrations and anger on.

No we don't. People expect vets, docs and nurses to move on if they get a better offer elsewhere. No one expects an PA to stick with a job where there is another job down the road offering more money or better working conditions

PAs, vets, lawyers, and other professionals may not abandon existing responsibilities (ongoing care of patients, pending litigation, etc.) without alternative arrangements. Lawyers need permission to withdraw from cases. Medical professionals, including veterinarians, can't abandon patients with ongoing medical conditions needing management without allowing their patients or clients a reasonable opportunity to obtain other care. Doing otherwise would violate the standard of care, which can result in an action against the professional license. In these discussions, there is a distinction between leaving a job to make more money and the circumstances when a professional's obligation to existing patients or clients can be abandoned. People are arguing that students' needs play no role in discussions about teacher departures, which is in contrast to other these other professions.

Students and parents aren't teachers clients or employers. Yes, schools are required to put your child somewhere, get an adult in the room, but the teacher isn't hired by you or your student so is not required. Schools ARE providing replacement situations--your kid isn't locked out of the school with nowhere to go--you just aren't happy that they have to.

You admit it. Students and their families are nothing in the process of education. Teaching is just a job that exists as a relationship between the district employer and teachers. What's best for students and their families is irrelevant, and they should shut up and be satisfied with whatever they are given.

This is what I learned during the pandemic. Parents and students are not stakeholders. Students are customers or clients or really anything at all, to school administration and the school board.

This is false. They just didn't comply with what you particularly wanted.

I wish it were. I guess you didn't watch the school board meetings closely. It's not that they "just didn't comply with what I particularly wanted". It's that I learned that teachers are stakeholders, which is reasonable. And that parents and students aren't.

I watched school board meetings and was appalled by a lot of parents.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

Why should she wait six weeks? Teachers don't get paid for the summer. So her leaving now for a better job means a better financial future long-term. OP doesn't like it I'm sure she knows were the sub sign-up forms are. It won't even be that long, just six weeks.

Wow, the disrespect towards teachers just doesn't stop.

DP: Why is this disrespect? Teachers are supposed to give up better financial offers just because you think they should conform to your idea of professionalism? They owe it to their students? The same teachers who routinely get pink slips every spring and often don't know if/where they are going to work the next year until mid-summer? The same teachers who have been putting up with a ton of crap from so many angles the past few years? Putting teachers on a pedestal who will suffer through anything--give up their own and their family's well-being-- for their students is not "respect" it's an unreasonable expectation. To couch it as 'respect' is just extra gaslighting. These and many other unreasonable demands are what is gutting the teacher profession. Sure, I'd prefer a teacher--or any worker-- not quit without notice but I can totally understand why someone would if they are at the breaking point. And only hr and the teacher know the actual situation, not OP. But if we don't course correct on demands on teachers, the issue is not whether you'll have the same teacher for the next month or so, but whether you'll have any at all next year.

Spare us your union BS. Unprofessional behavior is unprofessional behavior in any field.

Live in denial of the growing teacher shortage then.

Devaluing professionalism will surely solve the problem!

People in the private sector job hop ALL the time. You get an offer for more pay, better benefits, you take it because the offer doesn’t lash forever. Teaching is the ONLY job where we assign some moral failure to leaving it. I’m a teacher and I enjoy it but let’s be clear, this is my job. Just like your job is your job. It is not my life. The job does not love me back. If I die tomorrow, they will list my position, fill it, and move on. My number one priority ALWAYS is my family and my own health. As it should be for everyone.

I'll add to that vets, docs, and nurses -- all of which are professions experiencing record burnout right now, after a pandemic which placed more burden on them as helping professionals and yet which so many others felt fine about dumping their frustrations and anger on.

No we don't. People expect vets, docs and nurses to move on if they get a better offer elsewhere. No one expects an PA to stick with a job where there is another job down the road offering more money or better working conditions

Ah. Tell me you are not a medical provider without telling me you are not a medical provider.

I closed down a clinic and gave every family 6 months advance notice, and paid about $1200 to send out letters to everyone at the address on record, and worked on finding everyone another provider that didn't have someone in mind (and paid my staff to help me do this), and didn't charge any fees for printing out records and sending them to the new provider with a summary for any complicated patients ...

... and got reviewed poorly online for "abandoning" my patients, and had 2-3 calls a week berating my front desk staff, and on and on.

Neat. I’ll bet that was a minority of your hundreds of patients, and they are entitled fools — just like the people complaining here about teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

No one here has any idea what is happening with this teacher in her personal life.

They shouldn't quit. people were not quitting their jobs like this 3 years ago. Biden needs to banned this and do something to stop people from quitting. MY DD English teacher quit last month, she said quit and ain't coming back. It's a sad day in America. November can't come soon enough, I will be voting and something will be done to stop the labor shortage.

You can't force labor. People aren't slaves. That is a route to have zero teachers available to teach in the fall.

The ones who quit midyear won't be working this fall anyway. Maybe you need to rethink your route.

Yes, but forcing people into contracts they can't quit deters the already dwindling supply of teachers to not take on a new contract.

No, it doesn't. All teacher contracts require a 9 month commitment. There's nothing onerous or bad about that. It doesn't deter anyone.

There is not a clause in it that forces you not to quit. In fact, it's them telling you they are committing to you for 9 months and generally teachers are generally professionally agreeing to stay then also. But they can't do more than that like PP wants--forcing people not to quit--without creating a deterrent. If someone is at a breaking point, or needs to move, or wants out of the profession they can quit when they want. It sucks for parents, other teachers, their students, but instilling draconian 'no quit' policies would likely not survive a legal test and make a profession that is struggling to attract people at the worst rate since it's been measured in even worse shape.

You can't force people not to quit. But you can also acknowledge that quitting in the middle of the year is really bad for parents, other teachers, and students. It should not be the norm for a salaried skilled professional and should only happen under dire circumstances. You wonder why kids are detached and anxious. I guess they should recognize that the adults in their lives are only there while it works for them and should feel terrible if they are disappointed when these adults leave without any warning.

Did you not read that I wrote "it sucks for parents, other teachers, their students..." Teaching has long held to this professional norm. Quitting mid-year was exceedingly rare and was long done for only extenuating circumstances. But they've had enough. The mandated policies at the federal level lingering since NCLB have added up, piling up with special education laws with grossly inadequate support. Thrown in your state governor creating a tip line for people to report their teachers, teachers feel like the social contract is broken and they don't have to honor it anymore. I'm not saying we want this for teachers at all. I'm just telling everyone who is still tut-tutting teachers they think are bad that it's a five alarm fire in the profession. I'm not a teacher myself, I track the data in my job and it is STARTLING.

I agree with you. Reading your additional comments, I think we are in complete agreement on the fact that teaching has become an increasingly undesirable profession for a variety of reasons, and the high level of dissatisfaction has created some checked-out and ineffective teachers. The teachers in my life complain more about administrative burdens, impossible workload, and clueless administrators than they do about students and parents. Teachers are burned out, and as a result, the current level of professionalism accepted in teaching does not align with other educated professions. I'm sorry, but it is true. I don't think we are to accomplish the needed reform unless when admit that. My oldest kids are now adults, but I can say that the slide began long before the pandemic and has nothing to do with the tip line (although that's ridiculous). Regular attendance, communication, timely grading, and consistent and respectful treatment of students and parents - all of the components that command respect, are harder to find than ever in public schools. Whether there are good reasons for burnout is beside the point. The decline in professionalism hurts kids, yet we aren't allowed to talk about it because more teachers might leave the profession. It's a vicious cycle. When kids get the bare minimum from some teachers, there's no backup to get them caught up. That's not fair to anyone, but most of all, the kids.

I'm the PP. I don't agree with you that there was a longer history of decline in teacher professionalism. I think despite a lot of demands, they maintained a fairly solid standard of professionalism. In any profession there is a range of course, but I would say on the whole it has been fairly steady for decades. What I am referring to is that teachers are burnt out and feel that the social contract has been broken. Highly skilled, committed and experienced teachers who wanted to be teachers for life, that had teaching as core to their identity are leaving the profession. Less skilled and committed people are also leaving the profession. Far fewer people of any skill level are entering the profession. Some less professional ones are quitting mid-year, but far, far more have either already left or are planning to leave this spring. They don't want to teach in public schools, they don't want to teach in charter schools, they don't want to teach in private or parochial schools. They are done. I think parents have yet to wrap their heads around this reality.

DP. I'm not sure what you think parents can or should be doing about this, besides just laying down and crying. You may blame parents 100% for the current teacher crisis. Okay. Not sure what parents can do to ameliorate it or to improve teacher conditions in the near term. Obama attempted to overturn NCLB with the ESSA but it doesn't seem to have succeeded in improving things. If I contact Richmond, should I ask for less oversight? More SOLs? Fewer SOLs but better written? Relaxing state (and federal) requirements related to sped students? What, exactly?

I think parents can help by being engaged in their kids education. I think a higher percentage of parents are checked out of what is happening at school and blames any issues with school on the Teachers and fails to look at what they are doing, or not doing, and how that effects their kids education.

For example, Distance learning saw a lot of parents complaining that their B/C kid was flunking classes and the parents blamed the Teachers. What many of those parents failed to understand is that their B/C kid was a B/C kid because the Teachers were able to get the kid to produce some work in class that could be graded. The kid learned enough by sitting in class and doing in class assignments to do ok on the tests. Teachers could track a kid down in study hall or at lunch and remind them to turn in an assignment. Many kids were not getting that B/C because the kid was making their best effort but because the Teachers could nag them in person to do their work. Teachers were not able to do that during distance learning and those B/C's turned to F/Ds.

The kids who had been working to earn those B/Cs probably had parents at home making sure that they were doing school work and making some type of effort. Those kids kept their B/Cs during distance learnings.

Too many parents are uninvolved with their kids education. They turn everything over to the school and their kids Teachers. They only get involved when the kid is failing or getting a D and then they are upset with the school/Teachers and not asking what the kid had done to earn that grade. We saw that last year as parents were bemoaning distance learning, which sucked, and were openly discussing that they didn't care if their kid was logged on. What was the point? The Teachers were in jammies and phoning it in so why should their kid log on or do the assigned work? This ignored the fact that most Teachers were not in jammies and had worked hard to translate in class learning material to virtual learning, which is a totally different skill set. And the fact that Teachers did not have the same methods available to them to encourage a kid to complete work.

A good percentage of parents forgot that education relies on team work and that they need to be working with their kid at home as well as communicating with the Teachers. Heck, there is a parent posting in the ES Age forum wondering if she should doing more for her 7 year old who is smart and ahead. But Mom doesn't like to read so she has not read to her kid. And Mom is not interested in asking abut school or talking about school with her kid. Her kid is acting up in class, it is clear the Teachers are contacting her about that, but she doesn't mention anything that she is doing to deal with the kids behavior at school, she seems to be leaving that all to the Teachers. She is missing that her lack of interest in her kids schooling is sending a message to her kid that school isn't important and that the kid can behave how they want in school. What do you think is going to happen in High School?

You make good points, but you should also consider that parental burnout is a real thing. The factors that contribute to teacher burnout - lack of respect, lack of autonomy, low pay or lack of appreciation, excessive workloads, and unfair demands - exist for parents of school-aged children as well. People check out when they are overwhelmed and feel that nothing they do is good enough. Lack of autonomy is a huge factor in burnout, and the reality is that last year's distance learning was completely out of parents' control, from the delivery method to the hours, presenting challenges that weren't fairly acknowledged in public discourse. Yes, we know that teachers help to encourage students to do their best. That's why the majority of parents don't homeschool. Removing the in-person aspect of the teacher-student relationship and then blaming parents for not doing enough to compensate for an extended period of education delivered in a manner they didn't choose or have a voice in developing is unproductive and unfair.

Sorry, but no. We ALL were burned out and overwhelmed by the pandemic and distance learning. It was exhausting and incredibly difficult. Too damn bad. You don’t get to check out of responsibly parenting your children. So many excuses.

+1, so sorry that PP is burnt out, but you legally signed up for that for 18 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

Why should she wait six weeks? Teachers don't get paid for the summer. So her leaving now for a better job means a better financial future long-term. OP doesn't like it I'm sure she knows were the sub sign-up forms are. It won't even be that long, just six weeks.

Wow, the disrespect towards teachers just doesn't stop.

DP: Why is this disrespect? Teachers are supposed to give up better financial offers just because you think they should conform to your idea of professionalism? They owe it to their students? The same teachers who routinely get pink slips every spring and often don't know if/where they are going to work the next year until mid-summer? The same teachers who have been putting up with a ton of crap from so many angles the past few years? Putting teachers on a pedestal who will suffer through anything--give up their own and their family's well-being-- for their students is not "respect" it's an unreasonable expectation. To couch it as 'respect' is just extra gaslighting. These and many other unreasonable demands are what is gutting the teacher profession. Sure, I'd prefer a teacher--or any worker-- not quit without notice but I can totally understand why someone would if they are at the breaking point. And only hr and the teacher know the actual situation, not OP. But if we don't course correct on demands on teachers, the issue is not whether you'll have the same teacher for the next month or so, but whether you'll have any at all next year.

Spare us your union BS. Unprofessional behavior is unprofessional behavior in any field.

Live in denial of the growing teacher shortage then.

Devaluing professionalism will surely solve the problem!

People in the private sector job hop ALL the time. You get an offer for more pay, better benefits, you take it because the offer doesn’t lash forever. Teaching is the ONLY job where we assign some moral failure to leaving it. I’m a teacher and I enjoy it but let’s be clear, this is my job. Just like your job is your job. It is not my life. The job does not love me back. If I die tomorrow, they will list my position, fill it, and move on. My number one priority ALWAYS is my family and my own health. As it should be for everyone.

I'll add to that vets, docs, and nurses -- all of which are professions experiencing record burnout right now, after a pandemic which placed more burden on them as helping professionals and yet which so many others felt fine about dumping their frustrations and anger on.

No we don't. People expect vets, docs and nurses to move on if they get a better offer elsewhere. No one expects an PA to stick with a job where there is another job down the road offering more money or better working conditions

Ah. Tell me you are not a medical provider without telling me you are not a medical provider.

I closed down a clinic and gave every family 6 months advance notice, and paid about $1200 to send out letters to everyone at the address on record, and worked on finding everyone another provider that didn't have someone in mind (and paid my staff to help me do this), and didn't charge any fees for printing out records and sending them to the new provider with a summary for any complicated patients ...

... and got reviewed poorly online for "abandoning" my patients, and had 2-3 calls a week berating my front desk staff, and on and on.

Neat. I’ll bet that was a minority of your hundreds of patients, and they are entitled fools — just like the people complaining here about teachers.

it was a minority in the thousands of patients I carried.

(The average panel for a primary care provider a couple of decades ago was about 2400, and I believe it has increased since then.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That sucks, and I'm sorry. There must be something really difficult going on in that teacher's life right to make such a decision.

She probably got fed up with the a-hole parents.

Honestly, this is probably accurate.

I wouldn't blame her.

Not this late in the year. It’s unprofessional and rude. Anyone can work another 6 weeks. That’s a really $hitty thing to do to her students. Just finish the damn year and move on.

No one here has any idea what is happening with this teacher in her personal life.

They shouldn't quit. people were not quitting their jobs like this 3 years ago. Biden needs to banned this and do something to stop people from quitting. MY DD English teacher quit last month, she said quit and ain't coming back. It's a sad day in America. November can't come soon enough, I will be voting and something will be done to stop the labor shortage.

You can't force labor. People aren't slaves. That is a route to have zero teachers available to teach in the fall.

The ones who quit midyear won't be working this fall anyway. Maybe you need to rethink your route.

Yes, but forcing people into contracts they can't quit deters the already dwindling supply of teachers to not take on a new contract.

No, it doesn't. All teacher contracts require a 9 month commitment. There's nothing onerous or bad about that. It doesn't deter anyone.

There is not a clause in it that forces you not to quit. In fact, it's them telling you they are committing to you for 9 months and generally teachers are generally professionally agreeing to stay then also. But they can't do more than that like PP wants--forcing people not to quit--without creating a deterrent. If someone is at a breaking point, or needs to move, or wants out of the profession they can quit when they want. It sucks for parents, other teachers, their students, but instilling draconian 'no quit' policies would likely not survive a legal test and make a profession that is struggling to attract people at the worst rate since it's been measured in even worse shape.

You can't force people not to quit. But you can also acknowledge that quitting in the middle of the year is really bad for parents, other teachers, and students. It should not be the norm for a salaried skilled professional and should only happen under dire circumstances. You wonder why kids are detached and anxious. I guess they should recognize that the adults in their lives are only there while it works for them and should feel terrible if they are disappointed when these adults leave without any warning.

Did you not read that I wrote "it sucks for parents, other teachers, their students..." Teaching has long held to this professional norm. Quitting mid-year was exceedingly rare and was long done for only extenuating circumstances. But they've had enough. The mandated policies at the federal level lingering since NCLB have added up, piling up with special education laws with grossly inadequate support. Thrown in your state governor creating a tip line for people to report their teachers, teachers feel like the social contract is broken and they don't have to honor it anymore. I'm not saying we want this for teachers at all. I'm just telling everyone who is still tut-tutting teachers they think are bad that it's a five alarm fire in the profession. I'm not a teacher myself, I track the data in my job and it is STARTLING.

I agree with you. Reading your additional comments, I think we are in complete agreement on the fact that teaching has become an increasingly undesirable profession for a variety of reasons, and the high level of dissatisfaction has created some checked-out and ineffective teachers. The teachers in my life complain more about administrative burdens, impossible workload, and clueless administrators than they do about students and parents. Teachers are burned out, and as a result, the current level of professionalism accepted in teaching does not align with other educated professions. I'm sorry, but it is true. I don't think we are to accomplish the needed reform unless when admit that. My oldest kids are now adults, but I can say that the slide began long before the pandemic and has nothing to do with the tip line (although that's ridiculous). Regular attendance, communication, timely grading, and consistent and respectful treatment of students and parents - all of the components that command respect, are harder to find than ever in public schools. Whether there are good reasons for burnout is beside the point. The decline in professionalism hurts kids, yet we aren't allowed to talk about it because more teachers might leave the profession. It's a vicious cycle. When kids get the bare minimum from some teachers, there's no backup to get them caught up. That's not fair to anyone, but most of all, the kids.

I'm the PP. I don't agree with you that there was a longer history of decline in teacher professionalism. I think despite a lot of demands, they maintained a fairly solid standard of professionalism. In any profession there is a range of course, but I would say on the whole it has been fairly steady for decades. What I am referring to is that teachers are burnt out and feel that the social contract has been broken. Highly skilled, committed and experienced teachers who wanted to be teachers for life, that had teaching as core to their identity are leaving the profession. Less skilled and committed people are also leaving the profession. Far fewer people of any skill level are entering the profession. Some less professional ones are quitting mid-year, but far, far more have either already left or are planning to leave this spring. They don't want to teach in public schools, they don't want to teach in charter schools, they don't want to teach in private or parochial schools. They are done. I think parents have yet to wrap their heads around this reality.

DP. I'm not sure what you think parents can or should be doing about this, besides just laying down and crying. You may blame parents 100% for the current teacher crisis. Okay. Not sure what parents can do to ameliorate it or to improve teacher conditions in the near term. Obama attempted to overturn NCLB with the ESSA but it doesn't seem to have succeeded in improving things. If I contact Richmond, should I ask for less oversight? More SOLs? Fewer SOLs but better written? Relaxing state (and federal) requirements related to sped students? What, exactly?

I think parents can help by being engaged in their kids education. I think a higher percentage of parents are checked out of what is happening at school and blames any issues with school on the Teachers and fails to look at what they are doing, or not doing, and how that effects their kids education.

For example, Distance learning saw a lot of parents complaining that their B/C kid was flunking classes and the parents blamed the Teachers. What many of those parents failed to understand is that their B/C kid was a B/C kid because the Teachers were able to get the kid to produce some work in class that could be graded. The kid learned enough by sitting in class and doing in class assignments to do ok on the tests. Teachers could track a kid down in study hall or at lunch and remind them to turn in an assignment. Many kids were not getting that B/C because the kid was making their best effort but because the Teachers could nag them in person to do their work. Teachers were not able to do that during distance learning and those B/C's turned to F/Ds.

The kids who had been working to earn those B/Cs probably had parents at home making sure that they were doing school work and making some type of effort. Those kids kept their B/Cs during distance learnings.

Too many parents are uninvolved with their kids education. They turn everything over to the school and their kids Teachers. They only get involved when the kid is failing or getting a D and then they are upset with the school/Teachers and not asking what the kid had done to earn that grade. We saw that last year as parents were bemoaning distance learning, which sucked, and were openly discussing that they didn't care if their kid was logged on. What was the point? The Teachers were in jammies and phoning it in so why should their kid log on or do the assigned work? This ignored the fact that most Teachers were not in jammies and had worked hard to translate in class learning material to virtual learning, which is a totally different skill set. And the fact that Teachers did not have the same methods available to them to encourage a kid to complete work.

A good percentage of parents forgot that education relies on team work and that they need to be working with their kid at home as well as communicating with the Teachers. Heck, there is a parent posting in the ES Age forum wondering if she should doing more for her 7 year old who is smart and ahead. But Mom doesn't like to read so she has not read to her kid. And Mom is not interested in asking abut school or talking about school with her kid. Her kid is acting up in class, it is clear the Teachers are contacting her about that, but she doesn't mention anything that she is doing to deal with the kids behavior at school, she seems to be leaving that all to the Teachers. She is missing that her lack of interest in her kids schooling is sending a message to her kid that school isn't important and that the kid can behave how they want in school. What do you think is going to happen in High School?

You make good points, but you should also consider that parental burnout is a real thing. The factors that contribute to teacher burnout - lack of respect, lack of autonomy, low pay or lack of appreciation, excessive workloads, and unfair demands - exist for parents of school-aged children as well. People check out when they are overwhelmed and feel that nothing they do is good enough. Lack of autonomy is a huge factor in burnout, and the reality is that last year's distance learning was completely out of parents' control, from the delivery method to the hours, presenting challenges that weren't fairly acknowledged in public discourse. Yes, we know that teachers help to encourage students to do their best. That's why the majority of parents don't homeschool. Removing the in-person aspect of the teacher-student relationship and then blaming parents for not doing enough to compensate for an extended period of education delivered in a manner they didn't choose or have a voice in developing is unproductive and unfair.

Sorry, but no. We ALL were burned out and overwhelmed by the pandemic and distance learning. It was exhausting and incredibly difficult. Too damn bad. You don’t get to check out of responsibly parenting your children. So many excuses.

+1, so sorry that PP is burnt out, but you legally signed up for that for 18 years.

Right. That's what parenting is.

That being said, I expect everyone with with added responsibilities and less time and more stress to be weeping and wailing after the last few years. That's not unexpected, and it's human. But these are your kids, and your stress doesn't become someone else's problem just because you find it overwhelming.

Wail about it. Ask for help. But don't berate other people for not saving you from the commitments you made, which go a lot deeper than any job (even teaching). These are your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The workshop model is one of those things that has been researched to be effective for student learning--and there is reasonably good evidence it does when implemented correctly under good conditions. But teachers need time to implement it well, and classroom conditions that are conducive to its success. That's not where we are at right now.

Not really. Or no better than others teaching methods.

+1 on the not really. Show me the research.

The primary evidence for the workshop/guided math model is related to the impact of flexible ability grouping on achievement--so when students receive math instruction targeted closely to their current ability in a given sub-math topic and then allowed to practice in class they perform higher than when the whole group of mixed ability children are taught as a whole at the same level. A 2018 meta-analysis--which is a statistical analysis of all available studies-- of studies on differentiation shows there are positive effects on mathematics achievement when you do within class, flexible homogenous ability groupings (which is what the Guided Math/Workshop model is) compared to traditional whole group instruction. Study: Marjolein I. Deunk, Annemieke E. Smale-Jacobse, Hester de Boer, Simone Doolaard, Roel J. Bosker, Effective differentiation Practices:A systematic review and meta-analysis of studies on the cognitive effects of differentiation practices in primary education, Educational Research Review, Volume 24,
2018,
Pages 31-54,


Small group instruction time in guided math/workshop model is designed to include the evidence based strategies of multiple problem solving approaches, visual representations of problems alongside notational representations and immediate assessment of individual understanding: https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/Docs/PracticeGuide/MPS_PG_043012.pdf) These are often included in traditional whole group instruction, but it is a lot harder to assess individual understanding in real-time in a group of 30 than in a group of 5-6.

The problem with implementation of the workshop model though is very real--and comes in when the behavior management issues are such that the children aren't actually practicing what they were taught during the others' small group instruction. And to do it well, teachers have to have accurate assessment of students' understanding levels in order to create the groups. When it doesn't work, it's worse than whole group traditional instruction because there's less overall instructional time.

There's a other isolated specific studies too supporting guided math--but they are fairly small---
In one experimental study, Guided Math (i.e. workshop model) was more effective for lower performing students in gen ed than traditional, structured whole group instruction, but equally effective for all other groups (except special ed)
Kroesbergen, E.H., van Luit, J.E. Teaching multiplication to low math performers: Guided versus structured instruction. Instructional Science 30, 361–378 (2002). https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1019880913714.

In another quasi experimental study: Look to Statement 6 for outcome findings. After teachers received professional development in guided math, student outcomes were higher in guided math than their prior traditional approach. But it's not a very rigorous study
http://www.ibii-us.org/Journals/JESD/V2N2/Publish/V2N2_7.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The workshop model is one of those things that has been researched to be effective for student learning--and there is reasonably good evidence it does when implemented correctly under good conditions. But teachers need time to implement it well, and classroom conditions that are conducive to its success. That's not where we are at right now.

Not really. Or no better than others teaching methods.

+1 on the not really. Show me the research.

The primary evidence for the workshop/guided math model is related to the impact of flexible ability grouping on achievement--so when students receive math instruction targeted closely to their current ability in a given sub-math topic and then allowed to practice in class they perform higher than when the whole group of mixed ability children are taught as a whole at the same level. A 2018 meta-analysis--which is a statistical analysis of all available studies-- of studies on differentiation shows there are positive effects on mathematics achievement when you do within class, flexible homogenous ability groupings (which is what the Guided Math/Workshop model is) compared to traditional whole group instruction. Study: Marjolein I. Deunk, Annemieke E. Smale-Jacobse, Hester de Boer, Simone Doolaard, Roel J. Bosker, Effective differentiation Practices:A systematic review and meta-analysis of studies on the cognitive effects of differentiation practices in primary education, Educational Research Review, Volume 24,
2018,
Pages 31-54,


Small group instruction time in guided math/workshop model is designed to include the evidence based strategies of multiple problem solving approaches, visual representations of problems alongside notational representations and immediate assessment of individual understanding: https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/Docs/PracticeGuide/MPS_PG_043012.pdf) These are often included in traditional whole group instruction, but it is a lot harder to assess individual understanding in real-time in a group of 30 than in a group of 5-6.

The problem with implementation of the workshop model though is very real--and comes in when the behavior management issues are such that the children aren't actually practicing what they were taught during the others' small group instruction. And to do it well, teachers have to have accurate assessment of students' understanding levels in order to create the groups. When it doesn't work, it's worse than whole group traditional instruction because there's less overall instructional time.

There's a other isolated specific studies too supporting guided math--but they are fairly small---
In one experimental study, Guided Math (i.e. workshop model) was more effective for lower performing students in gen ed than traditional, structured whole group instruction, but equally effective for all other groups (except special ed)
Kroesbergen, E.H., van Luit, J.E. Teaching multiplication to low math performers: Guided versus structured instruction. Instructional Science 30, 361–378 (2002). https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1019880913714.

In another quasi experimental study: Look to Statement 6 for outcome findings. After teachers received professional development in guided math, student outcomes were higher in guided math than their prior traditional approach. But it's not a very rigorous study
http://www.ibii-us.org/Journals/JESD/V2N2/Publish/V2N2_7.pdf

I imagine you are an administrator getting your Ed.D in educational leadership - you people are like cancer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The workshop model is one of those things that has been researched to be effective for student learning--and there is reasonably good evidence it does when implemented correctly under good conditions. But teachers need time to implement it well, and classroom conditions that are conducive to its success. That's not where we are at right now.

Not really. Or no better than others teaching methods.

+1 on the not really. Show me the research.

The primary evidence for the workshop/guided math model is related to the impact of flexible ability grouping on achievement--so when students receive math instruction targeted closely to their current ability in a given sub-math topic and then allowed to practice in class they perform higher than when the whole group of mixed ability children are taught as a whole at the same level. A 2018 meta-analysis--which is a statistical analysis of all available studies-- of studies on differentiation shows there are positive effects on mathematics achievement when you do within class, flexible homogenous ability groupings (which is what the Guided Math/Workshop model is) compared to traditional whole group instruction. Study: Marjolein I. Deunk, Annemieke E. Smale-Jacobse, Hester de Boer, Simone Doolaard, Roel J. Bosker, Effective differentiation Practices:A systematic review and meta-analysis of studies on the cognitive effects of differentiation practices in primary education, Educational Research Review, Volume 24,
2018,
Pages 31-54,


Small group instruction time in guided math/workshop model is designed to include the evidence based strategies of multiple problem solving approaches, visual representations of problems alongside notational representations and immediate assessment of individual understanding: https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/Docs/PracticeGuide/MPS_PG_043012.pdf) These are often included in traditional whole group instruction, but it is a lot harder to assess individual understanding in real-time in a group of 30 than in a group of 5-6.

The problem with implementation of the workshop model though is very real--and comes in when the behavior management issues are such that the children aren't actually practicing what they were taught during the others' small group instruction. And to do it well, teachers have to have accurate assessment of students' understanding levels in order to create the groups. When it doesn't work, it's worse than whole group traditional instruction because there's less overall instructional time.

There's a other isolated specific studies too supporting guided math--but they are fairly small---
In one experimental study, Guided Math (i.e. workshop model) was more effective for lower performing students in gen ed than traditional, structured whole group instruction, but equally effective for all other groups (except special ed)
Kroesbergen, E.H., van Luit, J.E. Teaching multiplication to low math performers: Guided versus structured instruction. Instructional Science 30, 361–378 (2002). https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1019880913714.

In another quasi experimental study: Look to Statement 6 for outcome findings. After teachers received professional development in guided math, student outcomes were higher in guided math than their prior traditional approach. But it's not a very rigorous study
http://www.ibii-us.org/Journals/JESD/V2N2/Publish/V2N2_7.pdf

I imagine you are an administrator getting your Ed.D in educational leadership - you people are like cancer.

Seriously, go teach in the classroom or get out of the building. You are the problem, not the solution.