Plane crash DCA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:There has been such a tight lid on the VIP leg of this flight.

There is NO WAY the "VIP" request isn't something that is bad optics.

Where are the journaliats who used to lurk around here?

They weren’t on some special unauthorized route for a VIP. The VIP wasn’t part of this crash.

They were flying an authorized route that is frequently flown by helicopters and were getting signed off on their annual night training on this route when the crash occurred. This was a required evaluation they were doing AFTER whatever VIP business was done

The VIP leg is why they were training in the dark during the busiest hour at National. The public deserves to know who the VIP was and the purpose of the VIP trip.

is the implication that they added the training to justify the VIP trip?

They use the return legs of "VIP" trips as "training" legs very frequently.

If people knew how many BS VIP trips there are in the national airspace, it would be a scandal.

More reason to know who the VIP was!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know that some people on here really want to blame the female pilot, but I ask you to ask yourselves if you were training someone and they were taking risks you weren’t comfortable with, isn’t it your responsibility to get them back into the realm of safety? And if the ATC is trying to make both pilots aware of a risk they are encountering, and you are in charge of answering, isn’t it your job to make sure you and the other pilot are aware of the risk the ATC is alerting you to before you answer in the affirmative and take responsibility for that risk?

Not trying to throw all the blame at the trainer, just think there was more than one failure here. I feel sorry for everyone involved in this situation.

And again, just to echo what other folks are saying, if this training was really just the return trip of the helo necessitated by some initial (and perhaps not really necessary) VIP trip, we deserve to know that, too.

I think the copilot was equally culpable.

Why? Please be specific. And also please tell us your qualifications and experience that give you insight.

He was communicating with ATC and claimed to have eyes on the plane.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:On Reddit, people said the wife of one of the pilots is being treated horribly. She had asked for people to share photos of her husband, and someone replied they should share photos of CRJ victims.

My call to everyone is to do something nice for others.

Text your government friend and let them know you appreciate their work.

Hold the door for someone.

Text a friend or family member, and let them know you love them.

Hope we can preserve aspects of a healthy society where we treat each other well.

It is shockingly insensitive for families of the helicopter pilots to be seeking that kind of attention under the circumstances.

Don’t think those families are less devastated? You suck.

Of course they're probably devastated. But sometimes it is not appropriate to publicly ask others to join in your grieving.

She posted on her personal facebook page. Presumably, the only people that would be looking at it and sharing would be her friends and family. If "the public" doesn't want to share and join in her grieving, they don't need to look at her page.

Or she might not have understood that some posts are set to public. Plenty of people don’t understand the Facebook post settings.

People assuming she set her FB post to public and then trashed her for that are—again—small-minded people who can not envision a variety of possibilities.

So she made a mistake. Just like the helicopter pilots. Luckily her mistake didn't kill 64 innocent people.

The grieving spouse didn't "make a mistake". Bullies targeted her. Don't victim blame here.

And you have no idea what happened on the helicopter or if any "mistakes" were made.

No one is blaming the victims-- the 64 innocent people on the airplane.

Just shut up. The three military members on the plane are victims too who died serving their country. People have accidents all the time. We don't crucify the people involved. You're a toxic ghoul.

If the helicopter crew had survived, what repercussions would they be facing?

They'd almost certainly be court-martialed for flying outside their assigned route. The question is whether they'd face negligent homicide charges.

I'm not even sure they'd be courtmartialed. There would be an investigation. They'd want to rule out aircraft malfunction and other potential explanations first. They don't automatically court martial people when civilians die. A decision would be made based on the results of the investigation, whether or not to prosecute and if so for what (sometimes people are courtmartialed for behavior or lapses in judgment associated with an accident, but not for the accident itself).

What would happen if this accident had been caused by a TV news chopper?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On Reddit, people said the wife of one of the pilots is being treated horribly. She had asked for people to share photos of her husband, and someone replied they should share photos of CRJ victims.

My call to everyone is to do something nice for others.

Text your government friend and let them know you appreciate their work.

Hold the door for someone.

Text a friend or family member, and let them know you love them.

Hope we can preserve aspects of a healthy society where we treat each other well.

It is shockingly insensitive for families of the helicopter pilots to be seeking that kind of attention under the circumstances.

Don’t think those families are less devastated? You suck.

Of course they're probably devastated. But sometimes it is not appropriate to publicly ask others to join in your grieving.

She posted on her personal facebook page. Presumably, the only people that would be looking at it and sharing would be her friends and family. If "the public" doesn't want to share and join in her grieving, they don't need to look at her page.

Or she might not have understood that some posts are set to public. Plenty of people don’t understand the Facebook post settings.

People assuming she set her FB post to public and then trashed her for that are—again—small-minded people who can not envision a variety of possibilities.

So she made a mistake. Just like the helicopter pilots. Luckily her mistake didn't kill 64 innocent people.

The grieving spouse didn't "make a mistake". Bullies targeted her. Don't victim blame here.

And you have no idea what happened on the helicopter or if any "mistakes" were made.

No one is blaming the victims-- the 64 innocent people on the airplane.

Can you not understand English? They are referring to someone victim blaming the widow.

But you maga seem to think it’s fine to abuse a recent military widow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been such a tight lid on the VIP leg of this flight.

There is NO WAY the "VIP" request isn't something that is bad optics.

Where are the journaliats who used to lurk around here?

They weren’t on some special unauthorized route for a VIP. The VIP wasn’t part of this crash.

They were flying an authorized route that is frequently flown by helicopters and were getting signed off on their annual night training on this route when the crash occurred. This was a required evaluation they were doing AFTER whatever VIP business was done

The VIP leg is why they were training in the dark during the busiest hour at National. The public deserves to know who the VIP was and the purpose of the VIP trip.

is the implication that they added the training to justify the VIP trip?

They use the return legs of "VIP" trips as "training" legs very frequently.

If people knew how many BS VIP trips there are in the national airspace, it would be a scandal.

More reason to know who the VIP was!

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I do think it’s odd all of the female pilot’s social media was completely scrubbed. But also her siblings and her parents.

Why? It’s the first thing I would do.

Because the other pilots and crew involved were released immediately, either willingly or not, I don’t know. They didn’t take extreme time and measures to erase all traces of them the public could potentially judge. And when you are involved in killing a bunch of people, the public will judge. By them not allowing military to release her name and then scrubbing all traces of narrative about her except what they explicitly publish, it seems like something is being hidden she would be judged harshly for- beyond her gender alone

Rebecca as a Captain outranked the copilot, how does that factor in to decision making?

It may have.

NVGs likely were a factor.

That the plane saw the BH at the last second and tried to evade is sad.

ATC could have been more explicit.

NVGs have been used for decades without this ever happening before now. Helicopters and planes don’t crash into each other weekly, monthly, daily. Stop making up excuses. ATC has been using the same commands and language for decade, as have pilots - this wasn’t invented yesterday.

The issue lies with the three in that helicopter. Full stop. The combination of those three individuals is the variable. That plane route was regular and common and the runways were not new.

Were they paying attention? Were they jacking around? ATC was directing dozens of planes all night without issue.

Helicopter behavior on the night in question is the issue here.

You don't know that.

You don't have all of the informaton.

We know the helicopter flew outside their route and well above their allowed altitude. We know that to them into the path of a landing airplane, when they were told by ATC to wait until it passed before proceeding.

We know the helicopter's behavior caused this. We just don't know why they did it.

Like I said, you know nothing.

This is not a TV episode where the story is wrapped up in 40 minutes.

Real life investigations take a while.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW I’m hearing it was simulating getting a govt official to safety as it was a COG (continuity of government) exercise.

“The missions are routine: In the event of a catastrophe, helicopters are often employed to usher government officials to safety.”

This is not secret intel, it's a direct CNN quote, so why not say so? These routine simulation exercises were widely covered in the news in the past couple of days.

"The soldiers on the Black Hawk were conducting what Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth described as an annual nighttime training on 'a continuity of government mission.' The missions are routine: In the event of a catastrophe, helicopters are often employed to usher government officials to safety. Crew members had night vision goggles, the defense secretary said."

Ok … even if training to evacuate VIP’s is necessary, why tf was it necessary for the evacuation route to go through DCA? Makes no sense.

Since you seem to know definitively that it makes no sense, please tell us where does the evacuation route they were training on go from and to (such that it makes no sense to pass by DCA)?

You tell us. It makes no sense for the evacuation route to go through a busy civilian airport - not the least reason being then they have to train pilots in the middle of a busy civilian airport. No, as a resident of DC who has helicopters constantly over my house, I don’t accept it.

No one GAF what random internet bullies “accept”.

apparently the FAA agrees since it has suspended helicopter traffic. My view isn’t an outlier.

They resumed it for "VIPs."

Of course they did.

WHO are these VIPs??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think it’s odd all of the female pilot’s social media was completely scrubbed. But also her siblings and her parents.

Why? It’s the first thing I would do.

Because the other pilots and crew involved were released immediately, either willingly or not, I don’t know. They didn’t take extreme time and measures to erase all traces of them the public could potentially judge. And when you are involved in killing a bunch of people, the public will judge. By them not allowing military to release her name and then scrubbing all traces of narrative about her except what they explicitly publish, it seems like something is being hidden she would be judged harshly for- beyond her gender alone

Rebecca as a Captain outranked the copilot, how does that factor in to decision making?

It may have.

NVGs likely were a factor.

That the plane saw the BH at the last second and tried to evade is sad.

ATC could have been more explicit.

NVGs have been used for decades without this ever happening before now. Helicopters and planes don’t crash into each other weekly, monthly, daily. Stop making up excuses. ATC has been using the same commands and language for decade, as have pilots - this wasn’t invented yesterday.

The issue lies with the three in that helicopter. Full stop. The combination of those three individuals is the variable. That plane route was regular and common and the runways were not new.

Were they paying attention? Were they jacking around? ATC was directing dozens of planes all night without issue.

Helicopter behavior on the night in question is the issue here.

You don't know that.

You don't have all of the informaton.

We know the helicopter flew outside their route and well above their allowed altitude. We know that to them into the path of a landing airplane, when they were told by ATC to wait until it passed before proceeding.

We know the helicopter's behavior caused this. We just don't know why they did it.

You just don't know, period.

There's a lot we do know. Why are you ignoring that?

That PP wants to argue that ATC is full of DEI hires

FAA is more than 70% male and 70% white.

What are the names, CV, races and genders of the 3 on duty that night at Reagan? You had a supervisor, an ATC, and an ATC who the supe let go home early.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think it’s odd all of the female pilot’s social media was completely scrubbed. But also her siblings and her parents.

Why? It’s the first thing I would do.

Because the other pilots and crew involved were released immediately, either willingly or not, I don’t know. They didn’t take extreme time and measures to erase all traces of them the public could potentially judge. And when you are involved in killing a bunch of people, the public will judge. By them not allowing military to release her name and then scrubbing all traces of narrative about her except what they explicitly publish, it seems like something is being hidden she would be judged harshly for- beyond her gender alone

Rebecca as a Captain outranked the copilot, how does that factor in to decision making?

It may have.

NVGs likely were a factor.

That the plane saw the BH at the last second and tried to evade is sad.

ATC could have been more explicit.

NVGs have been used for decades without this ever happening before now. Helicopters and planes don’t crash into each other weekly, monthly, daily. Stop making up excuses. ATC has been using the same commands and language for decade, as have pilots - this wasn’t invented yesterday.

The issue lies with the three in that helicopter. Full stop. The combination of those three individuals is the variable. That plane route was regular and common and the runways were not new.

Were they paying attention? Were they jacking around? ATC was directing dozens of planes all night without issue.

Helicopter behavior on the night in question is the issue here.

You don't know that.

You don't have all of the informaton.

We know the helicopter flew outside their route and well above their allowed altitude. We know that to them into the path of a landing airplane, when they were told by ATC to wait until it passed before proceeding.

We know the helicopter's behavior caused this. We just don't know why they did it.

You just don't know, period.

There's a lot we do know. Why are you ignoring that?

That PP wants to argue that ATC is full of DEI hires

FAA is more than 70% male and 70% white.

What are the names, CV, races and genders of the 3 on duty that night at Reagan? You had a supervisor, an ATC, and an ATC who the supe let go home early.

what were the names races and genders of the people who decided that it is appropriate to have training flights there at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think it’s odd all of the female pilot’s social media was completely scrubbed. But also her siblings and her parents.

Why? It’s the first thing I would do.

Because the other pilots and crew involved were released immediately, either willingly or not, I don’t know. They didn’t take extreme time and measures to erase all traces of them the public could potentially judge. And when you are involved in killing a bunch of people, the public will judge. By them not allowing military to release her name and then scrubbing all traces of narrative about her except what they explicitly publish, it seems like something is being hidden she would be judged harshly for- beyond her gender alone

Rebecca as a Captain outranked the copilot, how does that factor in to decision making?

It may have.

NVGs likely were a factor.

That the plane saw the BH at the last second and tried to evade is sad.

ATC could have been more explicit.

NVGs have been used for decades without this ever happening before now. Helicopters and planes don’t crash into each other weekly, monthly, daily. Stop making up excuses. ATC has been using the same commands and language for decade, as have pilots - this wasn’t invented yesterday.

The issue lies with the three in that helicopter. Full stop. The combination of those three individuals is the variable. That plane route was regular and common and the runways were not new.

Were they paying attention? Were they jacking around? ATC was directing dozens of planes all night without issue.

Helicopter behavior on the night in question is the issue here.

You don't know that.

You don't have all of the informaton.

We know the helicopter flew outside their route and well above their allowed altitude. We know that to them into the path of a landing airplane, when they were told by ATC to wait until it passed before proceeding.

We know the helicopter's behavior caused this. We just don't know why they did it.

You just don't know, period.

There's a lot we do know. Why are you ignoring that?

That PP wants to argue that ATC is full of DEI hires

To that PP—Maybe the ATCs will resign as Musk wants them to and then we can all be grounded except for Trump friends who use military pilots as their uber
drivers.

[Anonymous]

The fact that military combat pilots couldn’t manage their mechanical sound helicopter safety around DC at night, in perfect weather with the help and clear guidance of ATC is frightening. Military combat operations and even medevac operations are 100x more dangerous and complex. I am hoping that is does come out there was some mechanical malfunction

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On Reddit, people said the wife of one of the pilots is being treated horribly. She had asked for people to share photos of her husband, and someone replied they should share photos of CRJ victims.

My call to everyone is to do something nice for others.

Text your government friend and let them know you appreciate their work.

Hold the door for someone.

Text a friend or family member, and let them know you love them.

Hope we can preserve aspects of a healthy society where we treat each other well.

It is shockingly insensitive for families of the helicopter pilots to be seeking that kind of attention under the circumstances.

Don’t think those families are less devastated? You suck.

Of course they're probably devastated. But sometimes it is not appropriate to publicly ask others to join in your grieving.

She posted on her personal facebook page. Presumably, the only people that would be looking at it and sharing would be her friends and family. If "the public" doesn't want to share and join in her grieving, they don't need to look at her page.

Or she might not have understood that some posts are set to public. Plenty of people don’t understand the Facebook post settings.

People assuming she set her FB post to public and then trashed her for that are—again—small-minded people who can not envision a variety of possibilities.

So she made a mistake. Just like the helicopter pilots. Luckily her mistake didn't kill 64 innocent people.

The grieving spouse didn't "make a mistake". Bullies targeted her. Don't victim blame here.

And you have no idea what happened on the helicopter or if any "mistakes" were made.

No one is blaming the victims-- the 64 innocent people on the airplane.

Just shut up. The three military members on the plane are victims too who died serving their country. People have accidents all the time. We don't crucify the people involved. You're a toxic ghoul.

If the helicopter crew had survived, what repercussions would they be facing?

They'd almost certainly be court-martialed for flying outside their assigned route. The question is whether they'd face negligent homicide charges.

I'm not even sure they'd be courtmartialed. There would be an investigation. They'd want to rule out aircraft malfunction and other potential explanations first. They don't automatically court martial people when civilians die. A decision would be made based on the results of the investigation, whether or not to prosecute and if so for what (sometimes people are courtmartialed for behavior or lapses in judgment associated with an accident, but not for the accident itself).

What would happen if this accident had been caused by a TV news chopper?

Are TV news choppers common on these helicopter routes? My guess is no. I also would assume they would be less likely to request (or receive) visual separation, and thus would be following ATC commands through the air space. Most news chopper pilots are grizzled veterans -- no one hires a 28 year old to fly their news chopper because there is a surplus of older, very experienced pilots to take those jobs and you want someone who knows exactly what they are doing. TV news stations do not fly "training runs." And so on and so forth.

You can't really take the military element out of this story. If the helicopter traffic around National was all news choppers and not military helicopters, I suspect it would have been shut down to helicopter traffic a while ago. You think news choppers would have gotten the same deference? No way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think it’s odd all of the female pilot’s social media was completely scrubbed. But also her siblings and her parents.

Why? It’s the first thing I would do.

Because the other pilots and crew involved were released immediately, either willingly or not, I don’t know. They didn’t take extreme time and measures to erase all traces of them the public could potentially judge. And when you are involved in killing a bunch of people, the public will judge. By them not allowing military to release her name and then scrubbing all traces of narrative about her except what they explicitly publish, it seems like something is being hidden she would be judged harshly for- beyond her gender alone

Rebecca as a Captain outranked the copilot, how does that factor in to decision making?

It may have.

NVGs likely were a factor.

That the plane saw the BH at the last second and tried to evade is sad.

ATC could have been more explicit.

NVGs have been used for decades without this ever happening before now. Helicopters and planes don’t crash into each other weekly, monthly, daily. Stop making up excuses. ATC has been using the same commands and language for decade, as have pilots - this wasn’t invented yesterday.

The issue lies with the three in that helicopter. Full stop. The combination of those three individuals is the variable. That plane route was regular and common and the runways were not new.

Were they paying attention? Were they jacking around? ATC was directing dozens of planes all night without issue.

Helicopter behavior on the night in question is the issue here.

You don't know that.

You don't have all of the informaton.

We know the helicopter flew outside their route and well above their allowed altitude. We know that to them into the path of a landing airplane, when they were told by ATC to wait until it passed before proceeding.

We know the helicopter's behavior caused this. We just don't know why they did it.

You just don't know, period.

There's a lot we do know. Why are you ignoring that?

That PP wants to argue that ATC is full of DEI hires

FAA is more than 70% male and 70% white.

What are the names, CV, races and genders of the 3 on duty that night at Reagan? You had a supervisor, an ATC, and an ATC who the supe let go home early.

what were the names races and genders of the people who decided that it is appropriate to have training flights there at all?

+1 What was the name and race of the President who let unelected unofficial Elon Musk run rampant so that he fired the FAA chief on January 20 and pushed for minimal staffing of core government services like FAA.

fired the FAA chief, pushed minimal staffing for government agencies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW I’m hearing it was simulating getting a govt official to safety as it was a COG (continuity of government) exercise.

“The missions are routine: In the event of a catastrophe, helicopters are often employed to usher government officials to safety.”

This is not secret intel, it's a direct CNN quote, so why not say so? These routine simulation exercises were widely covered in the news in the past couple of days.

"The soldiers on the Black Hawk were conducting what Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth described as an annual nighttime training on 'a continuity of government mission.' The missions are routine: In the event of a catastrophe, helicopters are often employed to usher government officials to safety. Crew members had night vision goggles, the defense secretary said."

Ok … even if training to evacuate VIP’s is necessary, why tf was it necessary for the evacuation route to go through DCA? Makes no sense.

Since you seem to know definitively that it makes no sense, please tell us where does the evacuation route they were training on go from and to (such that it makes no sense to pass by DCA)?

You tell us. It makes no sense for the evacuation route to go through a busy civilian airport - not the least reason being then they have to train pilots in the middle of a busy civilian airport. No, as a resident of DC who has helicopters constantly over my house, I don’t accept it.

No one GAF what random internet bullies “accept”.

apparently the FAA agrees since it has suspended helicopter traffic. My view isn’t an outlier.

They resumed it for "VIPs."

Of course they did.

WHO are these VIPs??

Mostly generals and other military leadership, but also sometimes Congress people and cabinet secretaries who are visiting military bases or government sites like Langley. There may be others, but when media has looked into the proliferation of helicopter flights in the DC area, those are the main ones.

Washington Post did a story about this during the last Trump administration when people in Arlington, MoCo, and NE DC complained a lot about an uptick in helicopter traffic. They couldn't actually say whether there was more helicopter traffic during Trump's administration, but that was one of the reasons given for all the military copters -- VIPs who want a quick helicopter ride instead of sitting in traffic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know that some people on here really want to blame the female pilot, but I ask you to ask yourselves if you were training someone and they were taking risks you weren’t comfortable with, isn’t it your responsibility to get them back into the realm of safety? And if the ATC is trying to make both pilots aware of a risk they are encountering, and you are in charge of answering, isn’t it your job to make sure you and the other pilot are aware of the risk the ATC is alerting you to before you answer in the affirmative and take responsibility for that risk?

Not trying to throw all the blame at the trainer, just think there was more than one failure here. I feel sorry for everyone involved in this situation.

And again, just to echo what other folks are saying, if this training was really just the return trip of the helo necessitated by some initial (and perhaps not really necessary) VIP trip, we deserve to know that, too.

I think the copilot was equally culpable.

Why? Please be specific. And also please tell us your qualifications and experience that give you insight.

He was communicating with ATC and claimed to have eyes on the plane.

And he very well may have. He wasn't the one controlling where the helicopter went.