Another article about the magnet programs in Washington Post

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do the minorities include Asians too? I thought the Asians weren't struggling.

No, for the purpose of academics only, Asians are considered de facto Whites. In the workplace however, they are considered minorities because they are under represented in the board room, executive level, politics, etc.. It's weird.

By white people. Except for when white people don't consider Asian-origin people to be de facto white people.

It shouldn't be surprising that things aren't always simple, should it?

PP here. In academics, I don't think only white people consider asians de factor white. I think blacks and hispanics do, too, because they are largely over represented in gifted/magnet programs and, as a group, generally have higher test scores than whites.

High test scores and magnet programs don't make people white. I think that black and/or Hispanic people are just as capable of distinguishing between non-Hispanic European-origin and non-Hispanic Asian-origin people as anybody else.

Yes, PP, I do realize this. I stated that Asians are de facto whites in general in academics because they are not "under represented minorities", and have high test scores *as a group*. I am not talking about individuals. You can chill. I am not insinuating that there are no black or hispanic smart people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do the minorities include Asians too? I thought the Asians weren't struggling.

No, for the purpose of academics only, Asians are considered de facto Whites. In the workplace however, they are considered minorities because they are under represented in the board room, executive level, politics, etc.. It's weird.

By white people. Except for when white people don't consider Asian-origin people to be de facto white people.

It shouldn't be surprising that things aren't always simple, should it?

PP here. In academics, I don't think only white people consider asians de factor white. I think blacks and hispanics do, too, because they are largely over represented in gifted/magnet programs and, as a group, generally have higher test scores than whites.

High test scores and magnet programs don't make people white. I think that black and/or Hispanic people are just as capable of distinguishing between non-Hispanic European-origin and non-Hispanic Asian-origin people as anybody else.

No doubt. Question is why haven't they done it yet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

High test scores and magnet programs don't make people white. I think that black and/or Hispanic people are just as capable of distinguishing between non-Hispanic European-origin and non-Hispanic Asian-origin people as anybody else.

No doubt. Question is why haven't they done it yet?

Huh?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, PP, I do realize this. I stated that Asians are de facto whites in general in academics because they are not "under represented minorities", and have high test scores *as a group*. I am not talking about individuals. You can chill. I am not insinuating that there are no black or hispanic smart people.

PP, I think that you really need to distinguish between "having high test scores" and "being white". To generalize -- white people do not consider Asian people to be de-facto whites in academics; white people consider Asian people to be not-black-or-Hispanic people. And, although I am not Asian, it does not seem to me that (as another generalization) Asian people consider themselves to be de-facto white people. If anything, Asian people consider white people to be

a. not-black-or-Hispanic people
b. the beneficiaries of affirmative action benefiting white people at the expense of Asian people.

[Anonymous]

As an Asian myself, I remembered how strict my parents were. We were nowhere near well off but my parents put a high emphasis on education going as far as helping me read, do math and other schoolwork. Granted I wasn't eligible for the G&T program and I had a learning disability but I still graduated high school with a 3.3 GPA.

I'm sure this has been mentioned before but it's obvious that parental involvement plays a huge role in a child's development. The county seems to think forced integration will solve all of societal ills. Nope. Parents who want their kids to do well in school will want to be with people with the same goals. This is why schools on the West, especially past 270 are doing well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As an Asian myself, I remembered how strict my parents were. We were nowhere near well off but my parents put a high emphasis on education going as far as helping me read, do math and other schoolwork. Granted I wasn't eligible for the G&T program and I had a learning disability but I still graduated high school with a 3.3 GPA.

I'm sure this has been mentioned before but it's obvious that parental involvement plays a huge role in a child's development. The county seems to think forced integration will solve all of societal ills. Nope. Parents who want their kids to do well in school will want to be with people with the same goals. This is why schools on the West, especially past 270 are doing well.

But can't necessarily afford it...

Also, how exactly is MCPS forcing integration?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, PP, I do realize this. I stated that Asians are de facto whites in general in academics because they are not "under represented minorities", and have high test scores *as a group*. I am not talking about individuals. You can chill. I am not insinuating that there are no black or hispanic smart people.

PP, I think that you really need to distinguish between "having high test scores" and "being white". To generalize -- white people do not consider Asian people to be de-facto whites in academics; white people consider Asian people to be not-black-or-Hispanic people. And, although I am not Asian, it does not seem to me that (as another generalization) Asian people consider themselves to be de-facto white people. If anything, Asian people consider white people to be

a. not-black-or-Hispanic people
b. the beneficiaries of affirmative action benefiting white people at the expense of Asian people.

In terms of academics, when they look at things like white vs minorities, they usually lump Asians in with whites. The funny thing is, when these two groups -- white and asian - compete for spots in elite univ, then they have different sets of standards.

I am Asian. I don't consider myself white in terms of race, obviously, but I know that when academia talks about whites and minorities, they usually lump us in with whites. Maybe it's because as a whole, asians are a small minority. But, yes, this is what happens. It is a disservice to many of the poor asian families who aren't educated and are low income. They are equally at a disadvantage as blacks and hispanics when it comes to enrichment and access.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, PP, I do realize this. I stated that Asians are de facto whites in general in academics because they are not "under represented minorities", and have high test scores *as a group*. I am not talking about individuals. You can chill. I am not insinuating that there are no black or hispanic smart people.

PP, I think that you really need to distinguish between "having high test scores" and "being white". To generalize -- white people do not consider Asian people to be de-facto whites in academics; white people consider Asian people to be not-black-or-Hispanic people. And, although I am not Asian, it does not seem to me that (as another generalization) Asian people consider themselves to be de-facto white people. If anything, Asian people consider white people to be

a. not-black-or-Hispanic people
b. the beneficiaries of affirmative action benefiting white people at the expense of Asian people.

In terms of academics, when they look at things like white vs minorities, they usually lump Asians in with whites. The funny thing is, when these two groups -- white and asian - compete for spots in elite univ, then they have different sets of standards.

I am Asian. I don't consider myself white in terms of race, obviously, but I know that when academia talks about whites and minorities, they usually lump us in with whites. Maybe it's because as a whole, asians are a small minority. But, yes, this is what happens. It is a disservice to many of the poor asian families who aren't educated and are low income. They are equally at a disadvantage as blacks and hispanics when it comes to enrichment and access.

No Asians are not considered White. Just think about how many GT programs are under attack national wide, be it TJ or Stuvy in NYC, it is always because Asians are the dominant group in those schools. The IVYs put a lid on Asian population, we only hear about protests here and there. Asians are in a terrible position. To go to the same top school, they need a SAT score that is 160 higher than Whites. I don't blame any Asian parents who fight to get their kids into the HGCs etc. They need any advantage they can get to level the playing field.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

In terms of academics, when they look at things like white vs minorities, they usually lump Asians in with whites. The funny thing is, when these two groups -- white and asian - compete for spots in elite univ, then they have different sets of standards.

I am Asian. I don't consider myself white in terms of race, obviously, but I know that when academia talks about whites and minorities, they usually lump us in with whites. Maybe it's because as a whole, asians are a small minority. But, yes, this is what happens. It is a disservice to many of the poor asian families who aren't educated and are low income. They are equally at a disadvantage as blacks and hispanics when it comes to enrichment and access.

Not to mention the poor white families who aren't educated and are low income. When we live in Montgomery County, it's easy to forget that there are such people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an Asian myself, I remembered how strict my parents were. We were nowhere near well off but my parents put a high emphasis on education going as far as helping me read, do math and other schoolwork. Granted I wasn't eligible for the G&T program and I had a learning disability but I still graduated high school with a 3.3 GPA.

I'm sure this has been mentioned before but it's obvious that parental involvement plays a huge role in a child's development. The county seems to think forced integration will solve all of societal ills. Nope. Parents who want their kids to do well in school will want to be with people with the same goals. This is why schools on the West, especially past 270 are doing well.

But can't necessarily afford it...

Also, how exactly is MCPS forcing integration?

They aren't. The County is by way of rezoning areas for low-income housing.

[Anonymous]

Mcps is by how they draw the cluster lines..in many cases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mcps is by how they draw the cluster lines..in many cases.

If you consider that "forced integration", your definition of both "forced" and "integration" must be different from mine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why can't applications be viewed in a ethnicity, race, and income neutral environment (e.g. take name, address, home school off what the review panel sees)? I am referring to the GT programs. The language immersion programs, IMO, should be dismantled or completely revamped so the options exists for all MCPS students. GT programs should exist to meet the educational needs of students who qualify for them (I know more qualify than are accepted-these programs should be expanded).

They can, of course. However, the applicants don't live in an ethnicity, race, and income neutral environment.

What test can you come up with that isn't influenced by income, mother's education level, resources to prep for the test, English as a second language etc ...and would end up roughly reflecting the surrounding population?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why can't applications be viewed in a ethnicity, race, and income neutral environment (e.g. take name, address, home school off what the review panel sees)? I am referring to the GT programs. The language immersion programs, IMO, should be dismantled or completely revamped so the options exists for all MCPS students. GT programs should exist to meet the educational needs of students who qualify for them (I know more qualify than are accepted-these programs should be expanded).

They can, of course. However, the applicants don't live in an ethnicity, race, and income neutral environment.

What test can you come up with that isn't influenced by income, mother's education level, resources to prep for the test, English as a second language etc ...and would end up roughly reflecting the surrounding population?

None. Which is why

1. nobody should consider a test to be a neutral measure of "merit", and
2. admission should not be based solely or primarily on test results

[Anonymous]

What should it be based on then no snark intended