schools w/ no merit aid

[Anonymous]

"But the world was not my oyster coming from Big State U because many employers that open doors, like Wall Street or consulting, wouldn’t give me an interview, despite my top grades. That’s my point. The name brand DOES matter because the UMC people doing the hiring believe that wherever you go to school, that was the best you could do."

It isn't really about just brand names or schools that are household names. Everyone knows the schools that play D1 football or basketball on TV and in bowl games, but only a few of those schools will cause people to assume that you're smart or sharp just because you graduated from there. A school that nobody has heard of like Bryn Mawr is going to open lots more doors than TCU. It sounds like and is in fact a "snooty East Coast woman's school" where rich professional types send their smart daughters. People will give a Bryn Mawr grad the benefit of the doubt with respect to how smart and qualified she is for a position or a spot in a competitive grad program. Meanwhile, the top TCU grads have to show that they spent their four years doing something other than attending horned frog football games with evangelical randos from Texas.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Long story short: we will not get any financial aid. We make too much for help but don't make enough to go full pay at a private in a way that leaves any wiggle room.

We are just starting this process, and child is an athlete that is in the midst of recruiting (only D3 at this point b/c of NCAA limits- and FTR I don't care if DC plays a sport or not but she does). I'm looking at the finances of the various schools and was shocked to learn that some of the schools she's been talking to give NO MERIT aid. DC has excellent grades, community service, ECs, and athletics.

I get she's one of many like man others . . . and I know at DC there are no athletic scholarships. But, how are people affording places like Wellesley? Their website and what I'm finding says they give ZERO aid on the basis that, essentially, "everyone there is special."

Yes, she can look elsewhere. And she is. But it is so sad to have to shut down a possibility that would, honestly, be such a perfect fit for her in every way. With room and board, etc. the cost per year is nearly $80K!!!! Two years would eat up more than our 529 has in it. Super bummed to have to limit her.

This whole thread is weird, and I gave up in the middle after people just kept yelling at this person for being rightly upset that college costs have gotten so insane. I went to NYU in 1993, which I think was literally the most expensive college in the country. It was about 25,000 a year. My dad was a doctor. Not a specialist. We were upper middle class, and my parents had saved money. I later transferred and that savings had enough money to support me through a graduate degree.

I did the math, and the cost of NYU has gone wayyyyy up proportionally from what it used to be--- and that's all colleges. Yes. If you were paying attention you knew it. We have a 529 plan and my parents did the in state tuition plan for our kid (which now I sort of regret), but it's still a big difference when you're theoretically considering this stuff to being like--wow---we could end up spending 360,000 for one kid's undergraduate education? We are probably top 2% of household wealth, and WE don't want to pay that. Not unless our kid is getting into an Ivy, which she isn't.

That is why merit aid exists. It's not a "subsidy." It's because colleges realize that even wealthy families understand that the price is NOT worth it--not when you consider that your kid might go on to some kind of graduate program.

Thank you for the merit aid website. I was actually looking for a list JUST like that after reading his book.

OP, I get it. I think most of my friends get it. They either stick to the top publics if their kids can get in, go for lower ranking schools with merit, and few bite the bullet and pay full price.

You make 400K+?

where does it state they make "400k+"? It just says college could cost 360K for one kid.

for example, We were making 300K combined when our first was born. One of us became SAHP, so income went to 200K. We started saving for education immediately. So even with the cut in income, we were able to save $10-12k/year. By time oldest was 12,we had enough saved for them at "top tier university". Did same thing for next kid as well. Now Our income increased to ~300K when oldest was 4. So at that point we upped the amount saved per year--that's how we achieved our savings by time they were 12. But we choose to redirect ~$15-30K/year per kid to savings until we had enough saved. We made the choice to save, as we knew they would NOT get any financial aide and didn't want them restricted to colleges that would give enough merit. We knew it would be much easier to save for college than attempt to figure out how to cash flow $75-80K/year.

Then we let it grown, adjusted/added if needed and made sure to pull it out to "safer" investments as we approached college. We live in the DC area, so HCOL and even spent 4 years in San Fran, which makes DC look LCOL. But when we got married, we chose to buy a house that could be afforded on one income if needed (at about 2.5x the highest income at that point). We didn't purchase a home worth double that despite the fact we could have easily done that. Instead we learned to live on a bit less in anticipation of wanting a SAHP (despite the fact I made over 6 figures when I took leave and we could have easily afforded a nanny). That choice (among others) allowed us to save for college once kids came along. But mainly it was making the choice to forgo other things in life in order to save.

SO while not everyone can do that (if you are truly living paycheck to paycheck, it's hard to save), I'd argue that most people making $200K+ (even in DCUM area) can probably find a way to save enough for a kid to have $50-60K/year and if you are earning that much can afford to take parent loans/cashflow the difference, if attending an 80K school is that important to you.

We are in our "starter home", driving 12 year old cars. Haven't been on a real vacation in almost 4 years. I had a serious medical issue, as did my DH, which tallied about $400K in medical bills. 4 sets of elderly parents that need help from time to time. Then there are taxes, insurance, and all the little fees and costs that eat way at the salary. We aren't "paycheck to paycheck." But we cannot save what you think we can. And it is absurd to think you speak for what everyone else "should be able to do." Screw you.

I never said "everyone else should be able to do so". I get that some have other financial issues. I grew up in a LMC family---I ate free lunch for several years at school when my parents were laid off and job searching, I stood in line for free food from local food banks back in the 70s/80s. So I get that. However, I was not eligible for full FA when attending college. So I had to choose what was AFFORDABLE for my family. I did not demand that I go to Harvard or Yale without paying the price. I choose a school that we could afford without me going into major debt (I took the student loans each year, my parents could not afford to take parent loans or help much at all). So I looked for merit and went that route. Got into more elite schools (3 of them) but still couldn't' afford it, so I didn't attend.

But I still will hold that many many could make changes and afford more but they CHOOSE not to. 50%+ of people I know drive new cars every 4-5 years, get Starbucks (or the equivalent) multiple times per day for themselves and all 3 kids, eat out constantly, go on vacation all the time, etc. Yet as our kids hit College age, many complain they can't afford more than in-state because they have not saved. For them, it was truly a choice, and they choose to live a fancy life when they could have saved and still had a better life than 80% of people.


Basically, everyone can find somewhere that's affordable---if 80K/year isn't for you, then search for merit elsewhere.
There are still many many many great options for college---going into debt is silly for college

No one is "demanding" anything. And I agree with the posters who say that people should not -have- to give those options up. There is a big benefit to going to some of those schools and you know it. But, it's somehow acceptable to dump on UMC people who aren't wealthy in the sense most of you think they are. After working their butts off (I also come from poor beginnings) and then they're punished for it.

The rest of your post is just conjecture and silly. Eating out and Starbucks is not a "fancy life."

I'm not "demanding" your car I just don't think I should -have- to give up the option of taking off in it. There is a big benefit to me having your car and we all know it. But somehow it's acceptable to dump on people without a car just because I can't afford to buy it from you.

Except you can buy a car that will drive from A to B, you just want a fancier brand name. And no, I don’t think the brand name matters.

Look, I think brand name matters a lot. It’s true that after your first job it’s generally your experience and not your school that matters, but to get experience you need to get good early jobs and that can be hard or even impossible without the right credentials. So I’m not going to deny that PPs have a point there.

But that’s just life. There are lots of things we all guess would probably advantage our kids but can’t or won’t pay for. It’s nothing new, unique, or special about this generation. I didn’t apply to top schools because I knew my parents hadn’t saved for college. That was true of literally all my classmates at my small midwestern high school. A kid who graduated with an unweighted 4.0 and a 35 ACT went to Big State U. That’s always been normal.

The attitude that brand name matters a lot will set you and your kid up for disappointment.
98% of people do NOT attend undergrad at an elite school, yet majority go on to life fulfilling lives and contribute to society and are happy. Just because you are smart does not entitle you to a brand name/elite university. In fact, I'd argue if you are so smart, you might recognize that fact and realize that what you do at college matters so much more than where you go. Especially in today's world, where you can job search online and not just at what companies come to your career center. The world is your oyster, you just have to do something with it---and that something does not involve complaining that you deserve better

But the world was not my oyster coming from Big State U because many employers that open doors, like Wall Street or consulting, wouldn’t give me an interview, despite my top grades. That’s my point. The name brand DOES matter because the UMC people doing the hiring believe that wherever you go to school, that was the best you could do.

In which case, it depends on which state u you attended. There are state schools that will still land you there, as well as mid tier slacs. Not sure Wellesley is known for placing students on Wall Street.

I love the shift from brand name doesn’t matter and the world is your Oyster for 98% of graduates to, but only if you go to the right school. If you’re rich enough that you aren’t getting any aid, the odds that a graduate of any school, let alone a random school, will do as well as you are small. Look at the average salaries both a lot graduation and mid career, and it becomes apparent that brand name does matter and that the world is not your Oyster if you have a BA from Savannah State.

Who’s talking about Savanah state? We are talking about affordability, not no academic standards whatsoever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"But the world was not my oyster coming from Big State U because many employers that open doors, like Wall Street or consulting, wouldn’t give me an interview, despite my top grades. That’s my point. The name brand DOES matter because the UMC people doing the hiring believe that wherever you go to school, that was the best you could do."

It isn't really about just brand names or schools that are household names. Everyone knows the schools that play D1 football or basketball on TV and in bowl games, but only a few of those schools will cause people to assume that you're smart or sharp just because you graduated from there. A school that nobody has heard of like Bryn Mawr is going to open lots more doors than TCU. It sounds like and is in fact a "snooty East Coast woman's school" where rich professional types send their smart daughters. People will give a Bryn Mawr grad the benefit of the doubt with respect to how smart and qualified she is for a position or a spot in a competitive grad program. Meanwhile, the top TCU grads have to show that they spent their four years doing something other than attending horned frog football games with evangelical randos from Texas.

Personally think a graduate of Virginia Tech or Penn State is going to do far better than one from Bryn Mawr. Why? Name recognition and the size of the alumni network.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Long story short: we will not get any financial aid. We make too much for help but don't make enough to go full pay at a private in a way that leaves any wiggle room.

We are just starting this process, and child is an athlete that is in the midst of recruiting (only D3 at this point b/c of NCAA limits- and FTR I don't care if DC plays a sport or not but she does). I'm looking at the finances of the various schools and was shocked to learn that some of the schools she's been talking to give NO MERIT aid. DC has excellent grades, community service, ECs, and athletics.

I get she's one of many like man others . . . and I know at DC there are no athletic scholarships. But, how are people affording places like Wellesley? Their website and what I'm finding says they give ZERO aid on the basis that, essentially, "everyone there is special."

Yes, she can look elsewhere. And she is. But it is so sad to have to shut down a possibility that would, honestly, be such a perfect fit for her in every way. With room and board, etc. the cost per year is nearly $80K!!!! Two years would eat up more than our 529 has in it. Super bummed to have to limit her.

This whole thread is weird, and I gave up in the middle after people just kept yelling at this person for being rightly upset that college costs have gotten so insane. I went to NYU in 1993, which I think was literally the most expensive college in the country. It was about 25,000 a year. My dad was a doctor. Not a specialist. We were upper middle class, and my parents had saved money. I later transferred and that savings had enough money to support me through a graduate degree.

I did the math, and the cost of NYU has gone wayyyyy up proportionally from what it used to be--- and that's all colleges. Yes. If you were paying attention you knew it. We have a 529 plan and my parents did the in state tuition plan for our kid (which now I sort of regret), but it's still a big difference when you're theoretically considering this stuff to being like--wow---we could end up spending 360,000 for one kid's undergraduate education? We are probably top 2% of household wealth, and WE don't want to pay that. Not unless our kid is getting into an Ivy, which she isn't.

That is why merit aid exists. It's not a "subsidy." It's because colleges realize that even wealthy families understand that the price is NOT worth it--not when you consider that your kid might go on to some kind of graduate program.

Thank you for the merit aid website. I was actually looking for a list JUST like that after reading his book.

OP, I get it. I think most of my friends get it. They either stick to the top publics if their kids can get in, go for lower ranking schools with merit, and few bite the bullet and pay full price.

You make 400K+?

where does it state they make "400k+"? It just says college could cost 360K for one kid.

for example, We were making 300K combined when our first was born. One of us became SAHP, so income went to 200K. We started saving for education immediately. So even with the cut in income, we were able to save $10-12k/year. By time oldest was 12,we had enough saved for them at "top tier university". Did same thing for next kid as well. Now Our income increased to ~300K when oldest was 4. So at that point we upped the amount saved per year--that's how we achieved our savings by time they were 12. But we choose to redirect ~$15-30K/year per kid to savings until we had enough saved. We made the choice to save, as we knew they would NOT get any financial aide and didn't want them restricted to colleges that would give enough merit. We knew it would be much easier to save for college than attempt to figure out how to cash flow $75-80K/year.

Then we let it grown, adjusted/added if needed and made sure to pull it out to "safer" investments as we approached college. We live in the DC area, so HCOL and even spent 4 years in San Fran, which makes DC look LCOL. But when we got married, we chose to buy a house that could be afforded on one income if needed (at about 2.5x the highest income at that point). We didn't purchase a home worth double that despite the fact we could have easily done that. Instead we learned to live on a bit less in anticipation of wanting a SAHP (despite the fact I made over 6 figures when I took leave and we could have easily afforded a nanny). That choice (among others) allowed us to save for college once kids came along. But mainly it was making the choice to forgo other things in life in order to save.

SO while not everyone can do that (if you are truly living paycheck to paycheck, it's hard to save), I'd argue that most people making $200K+ (even in DCUM area) can probably find a way to save enough for a kid to have $50-60K/year and if you are earning that much can afford to take parent loans/cashflow the difference, if attending an 80K school is that important to you.

We are in our "starter home", driving 12 year old cars. Haven't been on a real vacation in almost 4 years. I had a serious medical issue, as did my DH, which tallied about $400K in medical bills. 4 sets of elderly parents that need help from time to time. Then there are taxes, insurance, and all the little fees and costs that eat way at the salary. We aren't "paycheck to paycheck." But we cannot save what you think we can. And it is absurd to think you speak for what everyone else "should be able to do." Screw you.

I never said "everyone else should be able to do so". I get that some have other financial issues. I grew up in a LMC family---I ate free lunch for several years at school when my parents were laid off and job searching, I stood in line for free food from local food banks back in the 70s/80s. So I get that. However, I was not eligible for full FA when attending college. So I had to choose what was AFFORDABLE for my family. I did not demand that I go to Harvard or Yale without paying the price. I choose a school that we could afford without me going into major debt (I took the student loans each year, my parents could not afford to take parent loans or help much at all). So I looked for merit and went that route. Got into more elite schools (3 of them) but still couldn't' afford it, so I didn't attend.

But I still will hold that many many could make changes and afford more but they CHOOSE not to. 50%+ of people I know drive new cars every 4-5 years, get Starbucks (or the equivalent) multiple times per day for themselves and all 3 kids, eat out constantly, go on vacation all the time, etc. Yet as our kids hit College age, many complain they can't afford more than in-state because they have not saved. For them, it was truly a choice, and they choose to live a fancy life when they could have saved and still had a better life than 80% of people.


Basically, everyone can find somewhere that's affordable---if 80K/year isn't for you, then search for merit elsewhere.
There are still many many many great options for college---going into debt is silly for college

No one is "demanding" anything. And I agree with the posters who say that people should not -have- to give those options up. There is a big benefit to going to some of those schools and you know it. But, it's somehow acceptable to dump on UMC people who aren't wealthy in the sense most of you think they are. After working their butts off (I also come from poor beginnings) and then they're punished for it.

The rest of your post is just conjecture and silly. Eating out and Starbucks is not a "fancy life."

I'm not "demanding" your car I just don't think I should -have- to give up the option of taking off in it. There is a big benefit to me having your car and we all know it. But somehow it's acceptable to dump on people without a car just because I can't afford to buy it from you.

Except you can buy a car that will drive from A to B, you just want a fancier brand name. And no, I don’t think the brand name matters.

Look, I think brand name matters a lot. It’s true that after your first job it’s generally your experience and not your school that matters, but to get experience you need to get good early jobs and that can be hard or even impossible without the right credentials. So I’m not going to deny that PPs have a point there.

But that’s just life. There are lots of things we all guess would probably advantage our kids but can’t or won’t pay for. It’s nothing new, unique, or special about this generation. I didn’t apply to top schools because I knew my parents hadn’t saved for college. That was true of literally all my classmates at my small midwestern high school. A kid who graduated with an unweighted 4.0 and a 35 ACT went to Big State U. That’s always been normal.

The attitude that brand name matters a lot will set you and your kid up for disappointment.
98% of people do NOT attend undergrad at an elite school, yet majority go on to life fulfilling lives and contribute to society and are happy. Just because you are smart does not entitle you to a brand name/elite university. In fact, I'd argue if you are so smart, you might recognize that fact and realize that what you do at college matters so much more than where you go. Especially in today's world, where you can job search online and not just at what companies come to your career center. The world is your oyster, you just have to do something with it---and that something does not involve complaining that you deserve better

But the world was not my oyster coming from Big State U because many employers that open doors, like Wall Street or consulting, wouldn’t give me an interview, despite my top grades. That’s my point. The name brand DOES matter because the UMC people doing the hiring believe that wherever you go to school, that was the best you could do.

In which case, it depends on which state u you attended. There are state schools that will still land you there, as well as mid tier slacs. Not sure Wellesley is known for placing students on Wall Street.

I love the shift from brand name doesn’t matter and the world is your Oyster for 98% of graduates to, but only if you go to the right school. If you’re rich enough that you aren’t getting any aid, the odds that a graduate of any school, let alone a random school, will do as well as you are small. Look at the average salaries both a lot graduation and mid career, and it becomes apparent that brand name does matter and that the world is not your Oyster if you have a BA from Savannah State.

Well you have to put in a bit more effort if you truly go to the middle of nowhere to a college where recruiters only coming from local companies...but that is a huge difference from o "my kid will attend CWRU, Oberlin, WPI, RPI, Santa Clara, Villanova, etc instead of a T20 schools". There are plenty of schools in the Top 100/150 that can be affordable for majority of people. And if Wall Street/high level consulting is a goal, then perhaps you need to find a school in the northeast (ie closer to Wall Street/consulting) that is affordable for you-----if you are smart enough for an Ivy, then you should realize that attending a school closer to the geographical area you want to ultimately work will make it easier to get hired. So find an affordable great school in that area (non-T25)----it can be done. Only your own choices will stop you (ie....don't go to a local small school where nobody from NYC ever recruits if you goal is to work in NYC).

However, I know several people from schools ranked over 200 who are executives at companies by the time they are early 30s, and multi millionaires before turning 40 or 50. How did they get to where they are? Because of hard work and drive and determination. They didn't give up because they didn't get into Harvard (or couldn't afford Harvard). The went to college got a degree, got a job and worked on achieving goals.

If your goal is Wall Street or certain consulting, then yes, attending T25 makes it easier, but there are plenty who make it that way outside of those T25---it just takes a bit more work.

[Anonymous]

There was a thread on here about 6 months ago where people answered questions about whether they now have, as adults, college friends that they are still close to, and whether those friends or others from their school had helped them get jobs at any point in their career since college. My recollection of it was that the only people from huge schools like Penn State who are still close with their college friends in ways that would lead to career help were the frat and sorority people who had structured help maintaining their connections. At a certain point, a school that's so big that there's no real cohesion point among the student body (like having been sorority sisters) isn't going to make their grads automatically want to help out fellow alumni in the way that almost all the women who attend Mt. Holyoke would for one another. There's enough of a shared experience among those MHC women that they can see themselves in a fellow graduate and feel a natural inclination to help them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There was a thread on here about 6 months ago where people answered questions about whether they now have, as adults, college friends that they are still close to, and whether those friends or others from their school had helped them get jobs at any point in their career since college. My recollection of it was that the only people from huge schools like Penn State who are still close with their college friends in ways that would lead to career help were the frat and sorority people who had structured help maintaining their connections. At a certain point, a school that's so big that there's no real cohesion point among the student body (like having been sorority sisters) isn't going to make their grads automatically want to help out fellow alumni in the way that almost all the women who attend Mt. Holyoke would for one another. There's enough of a shared experience among those MHC women that they can see themselves in a fellow graduate and feel a natural inclination to help them.

Lovely anecdote but incorrect.

[Anonymous]

I get this is not everyone, but if you’ve done a major kitchen and bathroom remodel when those rooms were totally functional but just outdated, and you are driving two fully loaded 50k vehicles and you have a lawn service and cleaning service and your average athlete kids play travel hockey etc etc, you threw yourself right into that donut hole yourself.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Long story short: we will not get any financial aid. We make too much for help but don't make enough to go full pay at a private in a way that leaves any wiggle room.

We are just starting this process, and child is an athlete that is in the midst of recruiting (only D3 at this point b/c of NCAA limits- and FTR I don't care if DC plays a sport or not but she does). I'm looking at the finances of the various schools and was shocked to learn that some of the schools she's been talking to give NO MERIT aid. DC has excellent grades, community service, ECs, and athletics.

I get she's one of many like man others . . . and I know at DC there are no athletic scholarships. But, how are people affording places like Wellesley? Their website and what I'm finding says they give ZERO aid on the basis that, essentially, "everyone there is special."

Yes, she can look elsewhere. And she is. But it is so sad to have to shut down a possibility that would, honestly, be such a perfect fit for her in every way. With room and board, etc. the cost per year is nearly $80K!!!! Two years would eat up more than our 529 has in it. Super bummed to have to limit her.

This whole thread is weird, and I gave up in the middle after people just kept yelling at this person for being rightly upset that college costs have gotten so insane. I went to NYU in 1993, which I think was literally the most expensive college in the country. It was about 25,000 a year. My dad was a doctor. Not a specialist. We were upper middle class, and my parents had saved money. I later transferred and that savings had enough money to support me through a graduate degree.

I did the math, and the cost of NYU has gone wayyyyy up proportionally from what it used to be--- and that's all colleges. Yes. If you were paying attention you knew it. We have a 529 plan and my parents did the in state tuition plan for our kid (which now I sort of regret), but it's still a big difference when you're theoretically considering this stuff to being like--wow---we could end up spending 360,000 for one kid's undergraduate education? We are probably top 2% of household wealth, and WE don't want to pay that. Not unless our kid is getting into an Ivy, which she isn't.

That is why merit aid exists. It's not a "subsidy." It's because colleges realize that even wealthy families understand that the price is NOT worth it--not when you consider that your kid might go on to some kind of graduate program.

Thank you for the merit aid website. I was actually looking for a list JUST like that after reading his book.

OP, I get it. I think most of my friends get it. They either stick to the top publics if their kids can get in, go for lower ranking schools with merit, and few bite the bullet and pay full price.

You make 400K+?

where does it state they make "400k+"? It just says college could cost 360K for one kid.

for example, We were making 300K combined when our first was born. One of us became SAHP, so income went to 200K. We started saving for education immediately. So even with the cut in income, we were able to save $10-12k/year. By time oldest was 12,we had enough saved for them at "top tier university". Did same thing for next kid as well. Now Our income increased to ~300K when oldest was 4. So at that point we upped the amount saved per year--that's how we achieved our savings by time they were 12. But we choose to redirect ~$15-30K/year per kid to savings until we had enough saved. We made the choice to save, as we knew they would NOT get any financial aide and didn't want them restricted to colleges that would give enough merit. We knew it would be much easier to save for college than attempt to figure out how to cash flow $75-80K/year.

Then we let it grown, adjusted/added if needed and made sure to pull it out to "safer" investments as we approached college. We live in the DC area, so HCOL and even spent 4 years in San Fran, which makes DC look LCOL. But when we got married, we chose to buy a house that could be afforded on one income if needed (at about 2.5x the highest income at that point). We didn't purchase a home worth double that despite the fact we could have easily done that. Instead we learned to live on a bit less in anticipation of wanting a SAHP (despite the fact I made over 6 figures when I took leave and we could have easily afforded a nanny). That choice (among others) allowed us to save for college once kids came along. But mainly it was making the choice to forgo other things in life in order to save.

SO while not everyone can do that (if you are truly living paycheck to paycheck, it's hard to save), I'd argue that most people making $200K+ (even in DCUM area) can probably find a way to save enough for a kid to have $50-60K/year and if you are earning that much can afford to take parent loans/cashflow the difference, if attending an 80K school is that important to you.

We are in our "starter home", driving 12 year old cars. Haven't been on a real vacation in almost 4 years. I had a serious medical issue, as did my DH, which tallied about $400K in medical bills. 4 sets of elderly parents that need help from time to time. Then there are taxes, insurance, and all the little fees and costs that eat way at the salary. We aren't "paycheck to paycheck." But we cannot save what you think we can. And it is absurd to think you speak for what everyone else "should be able to do." Screw you.

I never said "everyone else should be able to do so". I get that some have other financial issues. I grew up in a LMC family---I ate free lunch for several years at school when my parents were laid off and job searching, I stood in line for free food from local food banks back in the 70s/80s. So I get that. However, I was not eligible for full FA when attending college. So I had to choose what was AFFORDABLE for my family. I did not demand that I go to Harvard or Yale without paying the price. I choose a school that we could afford without me going into major debt (I took the student loans each year, my parents could not afford to take parent loans or help much at all). So I looked for merit and went that route. Got into more elite schools (3 of them) but still couldn't' afford it, so I didn't attend.

But I still will hold that many many could make changes and afford more but they CHOOSE not to. 50%+ of people I know drive new cars every 4-5 years, get Starbucks (or the equivalent) multiple times per day for themselves and all 3 kids, eat out constantly, go on vacation all the time, etc. Yet as our kids hit College age, many complain they can't afford more than in-state because they have not saved. For them, it was truly a choice, and they choose to live a fancy life when they could have saved and still had a better life than 80% of people.


Basically, everyone can find somewhere that's affordable---if 80K/year isn't for you, then search for merit elsewhere.
There are still many many many great options for college---going into debt is silly for college

No one is "demanding" anything. And I agree with the posters who say that people should not -have- to give those options up. There is a big benefit to going to some of those schools and you know it. But, it's somehow acceptable to dump on UMC people who aren't wealthy in the sense most of you think they are. After working their butts off (I also come from poor beginnings) and then they're punished for it.

The rest of your post is just conjecture and silly. Eating out and Starbucks is not a "fancy life."

I'm not "demanding" your car I just don't think I should -have- to give up the option of taking off in it. There is a big benefit to me having your car and we all know it. But somehow it's acceptable to dump on people without a car just because I can't afford to buy it from you.

Except you can buy a car that will drive from A to B, you just want a fancier brand name. And no, I don’t think the brand name matters.

Look, I think brand name matters a lot. It’s true that after your first job it’s generally your experience and not your school that matters, but to get experience you need to get good early jobs and that can be hard or even impossible without the right credentials. So I’m not going to deny that PPs have a point there.

But that’s just life. There are lots of things we all guess would probably advantage our kids but can’t or won’t pay for. It’s nothing new, unique, or special about this generation. I didn’t apply to top schools because I knew my parents hadn’t saved for college. That was true of literally all my classmates at my small midwestern high school. A kid who graduated with an unweighted 4.0 and a 35 ACT went to Big State U. That’s always been normal.

The attitude that brand name matters a lot will set you and your kid up for disappointment.
98% of people do NOT attend undergrad at an elite school, yet majority go on to life fulfilling lives and contribute to society and are happy. Just because you are smart does not entitle you to a brand name/elite university. In fact, I'd argue if you are so smart, you might recognize that fact and realize that what you do at college matters so much more than where you go. Especially in today's world, where you can job search online and not just at what companies come to your career center. The world is your oyster, you just have to do something with it---and that something does not involve complaining that you deserve better

But the world was not my oyster coming from Big State U because many employers that open doors, like Wall Street or consulting, wouldn’t give me an interview, despite my top grades. That’s my point. The name brand DOES matter because the UMC people doing the hiring believe that wherever you go to school, that was the best you could do.

In which case, it depends on which state u you attended. There are state schools that will still land you there, as well as mid tier slacs. Not sure Wellesley is known for placing students on Wall Street.

I love the shift from brand name doesn’t matter and the world is your Oyster for 98% of graduates to, but only if you go to the right school. If you’re rich enough that you aren’t getting any aid, the odds that a graduate of any school, let alone a random school, will do as well as you are small. Look at the average salaries both a lot graduation and mid career, and it becomes apparent that brand name does matter and that the world is not your Oyster if you have a BA from Savannah State.

Well you have to put in a bit more effort if you truly go to the middle of nowhere to a college where recruiters only coming from local companies...but that is a huge difference from o "my kid will attend CWRU, Oberlin, WPI, RPI, Santa Clara, Villanova, etc instead of a T20 schools". There are plenty of schools in the Top 100/150 that can be affordable for majority of people. And if Wall Street/high level consulting is a goal, then perhaps you need to find a school in the northeast (ie closer to Wall Street/consulting) that is affordable for you-----if you are smart enough for an Ivy, then you should realize that attending a school closer to the geographical area you want to ultimately work will make it easier to get hired. So find an affordable great school in that area (non-T25)----it can be done. Only your own choices will stop you (ie....don't go to a local small school where nobody from NYC ever recruits if you goal is to work in NYC).

However, I know several people from schools ranked over 200 who are executives at companies by the time they are early 30s, and multi millionaires before turning 40 or 50. How did they get to where they are? Because of hard work and drive and determination. They didn't give up because they didn't get into Harvard (or couldn't afford Harvard). The went to college got a degree, got a job and worked on achieving goals.

If your goal is Wall Street or certain consulting, then yes, attending T25 makes it easier, but there are plenty who make it that way outside of those T25---it just takes a bit more work.

You’re conflating being “smart” with being savvy and worldly. I didn’t know consulting was even a career path when I was 17 and picking University of Iowa over Iowa State. If you grew up in NYC or Boston or DC maybe you did. But I didn’t and really, had no way of knowing. Then by the time I figured out how important these first jobs were, it was too late.

I’ve been successful and made money but it all would have been much easier and smoother if I had been at a school that was in the business of sending kids down the right paths. But my parents thought they were a “donut hole” family (AKA they overspent on cars and other nonsense) so I was SOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I get this is not everyone, but if you’ve done a major kitchen and bathroom remodel when those rooms were totally functional but just outdated, and you are driving two fully loaded 50k vehicles and you have a lawn service and cleaning service and your average athlete kids play travel hockey etc etc, you threw yourself right into that donut hole yourself.

But they DESERVE a UMC lifestyle! And then they DESERVE a big name school for their kids because it’s education, not a luxury good!

[Anonymous]

I think it’s the parents who didn’t themselves go to T20 schools that overstate their importance. It’s not the golden meal ticket you think it is, the majority of students at these schools still have painfully average careers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Long story short: we will not get any financial aid. We make too much for help but don't make enough to go full pay at a private in a way that leaves any wiggle room.

We are just starting this process, and child is an athlete that is in the midst of recruiting (only D3 at this point b/c of NCAA limits- and FTR I don't care if DC plays a sport or not but she does). I'm looking at the finances of the various schools and was shocked to learn that some of the schools she's been talking to give NO MERIT aid. DC has excellent grades, community service, ECs, and athletics.

I get she's one of many like man others . . . and I know at DC there are no athletic scholarships. But, how are people affording places like Wellesley? Their website and what I'm finding says they give ZERO aid on the basis that, essentially, "everyone there is special."

Yes, she can look elsewhere. And she is. But it is so sad to have to shut down a possibility that would, honestly, be such a perfect fit for her in every way. With room and board, etc. the cost per year is nearly $80K!!!! Two years would eat up more than our 529 has in it. Super bummed to have to limit her.

They are either poor enough to get a lot of aid, rich enough to not need it, or had parents putting away a lot of money from conception.

Well it is no shock that top schools would cost ~$80K/year when my kid would enter college. So we did plan for that and sock away as much as we could from an early age, as we knew we wouldn't qualify for any FA. Had we not been able to do that, our kid would have had to search out more affordable schools.

Congratulations on making enough money to save 320k per kid?

No, it's congratulation on planning. Anyone smart enough to save $160K should be smart enough to know that college will be up to $80K/year in 2022. SO if attending those "Top schools" is important you plan accordingly.
Had we not been able to save enough, I would have set the mindset with my kids that while you can apply to T40 schools, we might not be able to afford them. So, you need to have a balanced list of college choices. To me, the most important part is finding great schools that are affordable to YOU. And there are many, many, many choices available for everyone. The OP has ~$40K/year saved for DD. There are literally hundreds of amazing options that will allow DD to graduate debt free. If only the OP would change their mindset and focus on what's available instead of complaining.

Similarly, I don't buy a house/car/vacation that I can't afford. I live within my means, or deal with the consequences. I don't expect others to compensate me for my lack of planning. OP could likely now cash flow another $10K+/year if they wanted to, based on their statements. So if the Top college is that important, they can do that and take parent loans and pay them off now that they have a higher income. (not saying I'd recommend that, as I actually think that's a bad idea----no school is worth going into debt for). But there are options. Smartest option (IMO) is to find a great school list that is affordable....and many many exist, just not T20 schools.

OP here. I guess I should have been smart enough not to acquire nearly $150K in medical bills due to cancer, as well?

Why don't you just stop with the speculation about what I should have done. We did all we could. And we saved a lot, notwithstanding that.

I never said my child did not have other options and wasn't considering other options. As I said, I grew up dirt poor and went to a non-elite school. I simply lamented HAVING to cross off schools -which are a perfect fit for her- solely based on finances. Especially when we saved aggressively for it. It sounds like people in the middle (too much money, but not enough) just can't go to these schools.

But, OP, pretty much everyone has to cross off certain schools that are a great fit, due to finances. Why did you think you’d be different? Why are you so angry? I’m sorry about your cancer but that should’ve been even more reason for you guys to realize that elite and expensive schools may not be possible. Or did you really live in a dream world where you thought the Wellesleys of the world needed to hand out merit aid to UMC kids?

I was thinking the same. Mine was interested in UMich and W&M (OOS), but they were out of our price range. No fafsa based aid at our middle class income and little merit available. Our efc was 45k. Mine ended up getting good aid from top need schools that use CSS with great offers from Northwestern and Wesleyan. OP, if your income doesn't qualify you for any aid, it must be quite good. If you are still recovering from medical costs, you can always try to submit a special circumstances or appeal to FA office. Also, you have a few more years to save and can keep paying some as you go during college. Plus, take a few loans. It's possible if that's what your kid really wants. We also had state flagship with awesome merit as a good alternative.

Your kid will have options. It's just not the scenario you'd hoped for or envisioned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Long story short: we will not get any financial aid. We make too much for help but don't make enough to go full pay at a private in a way that leaves any wiggle room.

We are just starting this process, and child is an athlete that is in the midst of recruiting (only D3 at this point b/c of NCAA limits- and FTR I don't care if DC plays a sport or not but she does). I'm looking at the finances of the various schools and was shocked to learn that some of the schools she's been talking to give NO MERIT aid. DC has excellent grades, community service, ECs, and athletics.

I get she's one of many like man others . . . and I know at DC there are no athletic scholarships. But, how are people affording places like Wellesley? Their website and what I'm finding says they give ZERO aid on the basis that, essentially, "everyone there is special."

Yes, she can look elsewhere. And she is. But it is so sad to have to shut down a possibility that would, honestly, be such a perfect fit for her in every way. With room and board, etc. the cost per year is nearly $80K!!!! Two years would eat up more than our 529 has in it. Super bummed to have to limit her.

This whole thread is weird, and I gave up in the middle after people just kept yelling at this person for being rightly upset that college costs have gotten so insane. I went to NYU in 1993, which I think was literally the most expensive college in the country. It was about 25,000 a year. My dad was a doctor. Not a specialist. We were upper middle class, and my parents had saved money. I later transferred and that savings had enough money to support me through a graduate degree.

I did the math, and the cost of NYU has gone wayyyyy up proportionally from what it used to be--- and that's all colleges. Yes. If you were paying attention you knew it. We have a 529 plan and my parents did the in state tuition plan for our kid (which now I sort of regret), but it's still a big difference when you're theoretically considering this stuff to being like--wow---we could end up spending 360,000 for one kid's undergraduate education? We are probably top 2% of household wealth, and WE don't want to pay that. Not unless our kid is getting into an Ivy, which she isn't.

That is why merit aid exists. It's not a "subsidy." It's because colleges realize that even wealthy families understand that the price is NOT worth it--not when you consider that your kid might go on to some kind of graduate program.

Thank you for the merit aid website. I was actually looking for a list JUST like that after reading his book.

OP, I get it. I think most of my friends get it. They either stick to the top publics if their kids can get in, go for lower ranking schools with merit, and few bite the bullet and pay full price.

You make 400K+?

where does it state they make "400k+"? It just says college could cost 360K for one kid.

for example, We were making 300K combined when our first was born. One of us became SAHP, so income went to 200K. We started saving for education immediately. So even with the cut in income, we were able to save $10-12k/year. By time oldest was 12,we had enough saved for them at "top tier university". Did same thing for next kid as well. Now Our income increased to ~300K when oldest was 4. So at that point we upped the amount saved per year--that's how we achieved our savings by time they were 12. But we choose to redirect ~$15-30K/year per kid to savings until we had enough saved. We made the choice to save, as we knew they would NOT get any financial aide and didn't want them restricted to colleges that would give enough merit. We knew it would be much easier to save for college than attempt to figure out how to cash flow $75-80K/year.

Then we let it grown, adjusted/added if needed and made sure to pull it out to "safer" investments as we approached college. We live in the DC area, so HCOL and even spent 4 years in San Fran, which makes DC look LCOL. But when we got married, we chose to buy a house that could be afforded on one income if needed (at about 2.5x the highest income at that point). We didn't purchase a home worth double that despite the fact we could have easily done that. Instead we learned to live on a bit less in anticipation of wanting a SAHP (despite the fact I made over 6 figures when I took leave and we could have easily afforded a nanny). That choice (among others) allowed us to save for college once kids came along. But mainly it was making the choice to forgo other things in life in order to save.

SO while not everyone can do that (if you are truly living paycheck to paycheck, it's hard to save), I'd argue that most people making $200K+ (even in DCUM area) can probably find a way to save enough for a kid to have $50-60K/year and if you are earning that much can afford to take parent loans/cashflow the difference, if attending an 80K school is that important to you.

We are in our "starter home", driving 12 year old cars. Haven't been on a real vacation in almost 4 years. I had a serious medical issue, as did my DH, which tallied about $400K in medical bills. 4 sets of elderly parents that need help from time to time. Then there are taxes, insurance, and all the little fees and costs that eat way at the salary. We aren't "paycheck to paycheck." But we cannot save what you think we can. And it is absurd to think you speak for what everyone else "should be able to do." Screw you.

I never said "everyone else should be able to do so". I get that some have other financial issues. I grew up in a LMC family---I ate free lunch for several years at school when my parents were laid off and job searching, I stood in line for free food from local food banks back in the 70s/80s. So I get that. However, I was not eligible for full FA when attending college. So I had to choose what was AFFORDABLE for my family. I did not demand that I go to Harvard or Yale without paying the price. I choose a school that we could afford without me going into major debt (I took the student loans each year, my parents could not afford to take parent loans or help much at all). So I looked for merit and went that route. Got into more elite schools (3 of them) but still couldn't' afford it, so I didn't attend.

But I still will hold that many many could make changes and afford more but they CHOOSE not to. 50%+ of people I know drive new cars every 4-5 years, get Starbucks (or the equivalent) multiple times per day for themselves and all 3 kids, eat out constantly, go on vacation all the time, etc. Yet as our kids hit College age, many complain they can't afford more than in-state because they have not saved. For them, it was truly a choice, and they choose to live a fancy life when they could have saved and still had a better life than 80% of people.


Basically, everyone can find somewhere that's affordable---if 80K/year isn't for you, then search for merit elsewhere.
There are still many many many great options for college---going into debt is silly for college

Well said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Personally think a graduate of Virginia Tech or Penn State is going to do far better than one from Bryn Mawr. Why? Name recognition and the size of the alumni network.

That’s a great thought, but what you don’t realize is that Beth Mawr is a 7 sisters school which has a quite large (because it’s 7 schools alumni networks combine) and extremely loyal and tight alumni network. Big state schools are a dime a dozen and the brand loyalty isn’t the same. And if you went to a big state school saying you never heard of Bryn Mawr just shows poorly on you, not the bryn mawr grad. People who have gone to more elite schools have the recognition of schools like Haverford, swarthmore, Wellesley, middlebury, Amherst, smith, Williams, etc. they don’t care about your Penn State degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Long story short: we will not get any financial aid. We make too much for help but don't make enough to go full pay at a private in a way that leaves any wiggle room.

We are just starting this process, and child is an athlete that is in the midst of recruiting (only D3 at this point b/c of NCAA limits- and FTR I don't care if DC plays a sport or not but she does). I'm looking at the finances of the various schools and was shocked to learn that some of the schools she's been talking to give NO MERIT aid. DC has excellent grades, community service, ECs, and athletics.

I get she's one of many like man others . . . and I know at DC there are no athletic scholarships. But, how are people affording places like Wellesley? Their website and what I'm finding says they give ZERO aid on the basis that, essentially, "everyone there is special."

Yes, she can look elsewhere. And she is. But it is so sad to have to shut down a possibility that would, honestly, be such a perfect fit for her in every way. With room and board, etc. the cost per year is nearly $80K!!!! Two years would eat up more than our 529 has in it. Super bummed to have to limit her.

That mindset will disappoint you and your daughter. There is no perfect school or dream school and your daughter is not "limited" because one school she likes doesn't offer merit.

Her daughter is literally limited to schools that do offer merit

But that is not "limiting" in the big picture of getting a great education at a school she loves where she can also play her sport. There are many, many schools that will be a better fit specifically because she can afford to attend them.

It is self-limiting to choose to believe you have been shut down by your "one true love."

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I get this is not everyone, but if you’ve done a major kitchen and bathroom remodel when those rooms were totally functional but just outdated, and you are driving two fully loaded 50k vehicles and you have a lawn service and cleaning service and your average athlete kids play travel hockey etc etc, you threw yourself right into that donut hole yourself.

In a high COL area, the donut hole hits families who could never afford a 50k car or major renovations. Around here, a teacher married to a cop can earn enough to hit donut hole status