Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

What will probably happen is both Israel and Palestine will get new people in charge. Hopefully, saner people.

For all how everyone hates "colonialsm" and empires, this is pretty much how a lot of them come to pass. Someone comes in and makes both sides stop killing each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

Is there some method I'm not aware of where you can implode tunnels and not having the buildings above them be affected?

Yes— first, unlike Christmas Eve, you target the correct buildings.

And not relying on aerial bombardment which doesn’t seem to be destroying these tunnels (see above on Hamas leadership still doing fine…) seems appropriate at this stage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

That’s fine I’m ok with different definitions of bad guys.

To your experiment, it would depend on who the 20 Hamas Fighters are. Sinwar and 19 friends? Yeah. The death of the 40 civilians credibly saves the lives of thousands. He’s credibly believed to have directed October 7. That’s tragic but proportionate. Similarly— 20 people who participated in Oct 7? Probably proportionate.

20 nobody rock throwers that can’t even for sure be linked to Hamas? 20 men of “fighting age”? No, that’s neither legitimate nor appropriate.

Got a magic wand or telepathy to determine who's a spear chucker, or rock thrower and who is important? Look, war is full of mistakes. That is part of it. It's awful. It makes people terrible and it makes terrible people worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Horrific rapes =/= ok to murder 22,000 people many via war crimes

I presume you have another way to remove Hamas from power and ensure the security of the Jewish people. A real, practical plan, no doubt! Let's hear it.

Let's also hear what you are doing in your activism that makes demands of Hamas and its many backers like Iran and Russia. Because surely you are not coming here merely to demand the Jews turn the other cheek.

DP. Creating more terrorists like Israel is doing isn't going to ensure the security of Jewish people. It does the opposite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

That’s fine I’m ok with different definitions of bad guys.

To your experiment, it would depend on who the 20 Hamas Fighters are. Sinwar and 19 friends? Yeah. The death of the 40 civilians credibly saves the lives of thousands. He’s credibly believed to have directed October 7. That’s tragic but proportionate. Similarly— 20 people who participated in Oct 7? Probably proportionate.

20 nobody rock throwers that can’t even for sure be linked to Hamas? 20 men of “fighting age”? No, that’s neither legitimate nor appropriate.

In most instances, that level of granular differentiation is simply not possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

Is there some method I'm not aware of where you can implode tunnels and not having the buildings above them be affected?

Yes— first, unlike Christmas Eve, you target the correct buildings.

And not relying on aerial bombardment which doesn’t seem to be destroying these tunnels (see above on Hamas leadership still doing fine…) seems appropriate at this stage.

I don't think you understand how buildings work. You can collapse from both above and below. I also don't think you, or I, have enough information about what happened to make an assessment of its effectiveness. You have a collection of opinions and some chaotic first-hand accounts. And you have an opinion you decided already: Israel is in the wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Horrific rapes =/= ok to murder 22,000 people many via war crimes

I presume you have another way to remove Hamas from power and ensure the security of the Jewish people. A real, practical plan, no doubt! Let's hear it.

Let's also hear what you are doing in your activism that makes demands of Hamas and its many backers like Iran and Russia. Because surely you are not coming here merely to demand the Jews turn the other cheek.

DP. Creating more terrorists like Israel is doing isn't going to ensure the security of Jewish people. It does the opposite.

Maybe. Or, as I said, and as generally happens in history, Israel and Palestine will end up with different people in charge, their old leaders will be blamed (rightfully, I think), for the carnage, and everyone will try to rebuild and heal. That's usually how this goes. Either that or another world war... you pick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

Is there some method I'm not aware of where you can implode tunnels and not having the buildings above them be affected?

Yes— first, unlike Christmas Eve, you target the correct buildings.

And not relying on aerial bombardment which doesn’t seem to be destroying these tunnels (see above on Hamas leadership still doing fine…) seems appropriate at this stage.

I don't think you understand how buildings work. You can collapse from both above and below. I also don't think you, or I, have enough information about what happened to make an assessment of its effectiveness. You have a collection of opinions and some chaotic first-hand accounts. And you have an opinion you decided already: Israel is in the wrong.

I think Israel’s conduct is wrong. I think they are not in the wrong for retaliating for October 7. I think they had a huge amount of international support which they have since lost by indiscriminately killing civilians. After October 7th I supported Israel’s right to respond and hoped they would do so in a surgical and devastating way. I was disappointed.

If Israel was conducting themselves as they did after 1972, they would have my support and, I imagine, the support of the international community, even though there were civilian casualties in that instance as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That’s fine I’m ok with different definitions of bad guys.

To your experiment, it would depend on who the 20 Hamas Fighters are. Sinwar and 19 friends? Yeah. The death of the 40 civilians credibly saves the lives of thousands. He’s credibly believed to have directed October 7. That’s tragic but proportionate. Similarly— 20 people who participated in Oct 7? Probably proportionate.

20 nobody rock throwers that can’t even for sure be linked to Hamas? 20 men of “fighting age”? No, that’s neither legitimate nor appropriate.

Of course the Hamas Ministry of Health will claim that all 20 were civilians, and children most of them. A 17-18 year old can be an accomplished and motivated fighter, and we all know that Hamas has indoctrination down to a science.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

That’s fine I’m ok with different definitions of bad guys.

To your experiment, it would depend on who the 20 Hamas Fighters are. Sinwar and 19 friends? Yeah. The death of the 40 civilians credibly saves the lives of thousands. He’s credibly believed to have directed October 7. That’s tragic but proportionate. Similarly— 20 people who participated in Oct 7? Probably proportionate.

20 nobody rock throwers that can’t even for sure be linked to Hamas? 20 men of “fighting age”? No, that’s neither legitimate nor appropriate.

Got a magic wand or telepathy to determine who's a spear chucker, or rock thrower and who is important? Look, war is full of mistakes. That is part of it. It's awful. It makes people terrible and it makes terrible people worse.

Having seen that Netanyahu is just Assad with a yarmulke I no longer give a crap about what happens to Israel or Jews anywhere else who are apologists for the Israeli war machine. Just do what you want to do without using my tax dollars or corrupting my government.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

That’s fine I’m ok with different definitions of bad guys.

To your experiment, it would depend on who the 20 Hamas Fighters are. Sinwar and 19 friends? Yeah. The death of the 40 civilians credibly saves the lives of thousands. He’s credibly believed to have directed October 7. That’s tragic but proportionate. Similarly— 20 people who participated in Oct 7? Probably proportionate.

20 nobody rock throwers that can’t even for sure be linked to Hamas? 20 men of “fighting age”? No, that’s neither legitimate nor appropriate.

In most instances, that level of granular differentiation is simply not possible.

But in this case it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s fine I’m ok with different definitions of bad guys.

To your experiment, it would depend on who the 20 Hamas Fighters are. Sinwar and 19 friends? Yeah. The death of the 40 civilians credibly saves the lives of thousands. He’s credibly believed to have directed October 7. That’s tragic but proportionate. Similarly— 20 people who participated in Oct 7? Probably proportionate.

20 nobody rock throwers that can’t even for sure be linked to Hamas? 20 men of “fighting age”? No, that’s neither legitimate nor appropriate.

Of course the Hamas Ministry of Health will claim that all 20 were civilians, and children most of them. A 17-18 year old can be an accomplished and motivated fighter, and we all know that Hamas has indoctrination down to a science.

Absolutely they can. They can also be a high school kid. An anime nerd. A soccer star. Every time you get it wrong you cement the international idea of brutality, and convince the population of Gaza that you’re coming for their high school students.

Because really don’t think anyone cares that they *wanted* to get the accomplished and motivated fighter when the anime nerd never sees his eighteenth birthday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

That’s fine I’m ok with different definitions of bad guys.

To your experiment, it would depend on who the 20 Hamas Fighters are. Sinwar and 19 friends? Yeah. The death of the 40 civilians credibly saves the lives of thousands. He’s credibly believed to have directed October 7. That’s tragic but proportionate. Similarly— 20 people who participated in Oct 7? Probably proportionate.

20 nobody rock throwers that can’t even for sure be linked to Hamas? 20 men of “fighting age”? No, that’s neither legitimate nor appropriate.

In most instances, that level of granular differentiation is simply not possible.

I can’t help observing that Abbottobad is still standing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

That’s fine I’m ok with different definitions of bad guys.

To your experiment, it would depend on who the 20 Hamas Fighters are. Sinwar and 19 friends? Yeah. The death of the 40 civilians credibly saves the lives of thousands. He’s credibly believed to have directed October 7. That’s tragic but proportionate. Similarly— 20 people who participated in Oct 7? Probably proportionate.

20 nobody rock throwers that can’t even for sure be linked to Hamas? 20 men of “fighting age”? No, that’s neither legitimate nor appropriate.

Got a magic wand or telepathy to determine who's a spear chucker, or rock thrower and who is important? Look, war is full of mistakes. That is part of it. It's awful. It makes people terrible and it makes terrible people worse.

Having seen that Netanyahu is just Assad with a yarmulke I no longer give a crap about what happens to Israel or Jews anywhere else who are apologists for the Israeli war machine. Just do what you want to do without using my tax dollars or corrupting my government.

Very un-Christian like to not wish good for your enemies--and in addition, none of the people you mentioned are your enemies actually, as they haven't done anything to you. Also, as a collective, they haven't done anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

Is there some method I'm not aware of where you can implode tunnels and not having the buildings above them be affected?

Yes— first, unlike Christmas Eve, you target the correct buildings.

And not relying on aerial bombardment which doesn’t seem to be destroying these tunnels (see above on Hamas leadership still doing fine…) seems appropriate at this stage.

I don't think you understand how buildings work. You can collapse from both above and below. I also don't think you, or I, have enough information about what happened to make an assessment of its effectiveness. You have a collection of opinions and some chaotic first-hand accounts. And you have an opinion you decided already: Israel is in the wrong.

I think Israel’s conduct is wrong. I think they are not in the wrong for retaliating for October 7. I think they had a huge amount of international support which they have since lost by indiscriminately killing civilians. After October 7th I supported Israel’s right to respond and hoped they would do so in a surgical and devastating way. I was disappointed.

If Israel was conducting themselves as they did after 1972, they would have my support and, I imagine, the support of the international community, even though there were civilian casualties in that instance as well.

Oh, no! Not their conduct!

Nothing you say is wrong, and yet everything you say is wrong. I don't think you have the toolset to understand it. Really, this all boils down to a very simple set of questions: what do you expect Israel to do? Turn the other cheek? And how do you expect that would go? In your fantasy world, perhaps it would go well, but this is a world with magic bullets and bombs that only kill bad people. How many terrorists acts are okay with you? Have you ever lived in a country with car bombs and rapists who drape women across their trucks like trophiess? Does that sound good to you? No? Well, then.