Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see the New York Times has finally belatedly acknowledged that Hamas used horrific sexual violence against Israeli women on 10/7, though I assume that does not matter to the Hamas supporters here who denied the rapes occurred because there weren’t rape kits or whatever, just extremely graphic and extremely obvious videos.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html

I assume HRW and UN Women and all those supposed human rights organizations are still silent on the matter of Israeli women being sexually tortured by Hamas, but my standards for them are so low now that it’s not a surprise.

Do you not read the NYT very often? They have been covering this story for more than a month:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-israel-hamas-sexual-violence.html

Are you upset that they’re also covering the brutality in Gaza? Are you upset that they aren’t discussing these rapes more? What is the real problem because it certainly isn’t that NYT “just acknowledged” anything.

Nice derailing. The article you referenced does not actually confirm anything. It’s all allegedly and “Hamas denies” which is similar to the rape apologists here on DCUM. The reluctance to cover and give credence to what was blindingly obvious—that Hamas sexually tortured its victims—is horrifying.

What would be nice would be if the NYT was equally believing of victims. I am happy to have the brutality in Gaza covered but the disparity in how they discuss the victims is notable. Like here on DCUM, there is a clear desire to minimize, defend, and excuse the sexual torture the women experienced, while Gazan stories of brutality are easily believed.

I mean, whatever. I didn’t expect more from DCUM or the progressive left. You are all fine with rape and sexual torture when the victims are Jewish, that much is clear. The progressive left has embraced vicious misogyny across the board lately, so this is just the antisemitic version of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Horrific rapes =/= ok to murder 22,000 people many via war crimes

I presume you have another way to remove Hamas from power and ensure the security of the Jewish people. A real, practical plan, no doubt! Let's hear it.

Let's also hear what you are doing in your activism that makes demands of Hamas and its many backers like Iran and Russia. Because surely you are not coming here merely to demand the Jews turn the other cheek.

They are not going to remove Hamas. They cannot do it. They are seeking vengeance.

So in other words, those women who were raped and sexually tortured should be fine with that and get over it because Hamas is embedded throughout Gaza? Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Horrific rapes =/= ok to murder 22,000 people many via war crimes

I presume you have another way to remove Hamas from power and ensure the security of the Jewish people. A real, practical plan, no doubt! Let's hear it.

Let's also hear what you are doing in your activism that makes demands of Hamas and its many backers like Iran and Russia. Because surely you are not coming here merely to demand the Jews turn the other cheek.

They are not going to remove Hamas. They cannot do it. They are seeking vengeance.

Actually, they’re doing a reasonably good job so far.

Significant Hamas force reductions, significant Hamas infrastructure destroyed, substantial numbers of Hamas leaders eliminated.

Long way to go, and too soon to be sure, but if I were Israel, I’d be satisfied with military metrics so far.

Will they “destroy” Hamas? Probably not.

Will they destroy Hamas’s military capability? Quite possibly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Picture this: Your daughter is taken from you in a raid from a Taylor Swift concert that you were so excited to go to. She is taken in a van deep into a place and you have no idea where. Probably in a dark tunnel with hardly food, is potentially being assaulted, and probably drugged. She doesn't see light for close to three months. You are still at home wondering where she is, if she's alive, and with every passing day you fear for the worst. You can't sleep, you can barely eat with worry. What should your government do to help you? The people who took her are threatening to do it again and again and again. How should your government respond? The people who took her dress like civilians and don't care about how many people die. In fact, they encourage civilian death because this helps their cause. You daughter is wasting away. Your daughter is dying. Your daughter fears for her life every minute. Hope is fading for all.

Genocide is an interesting term that has been coopted. Actually, I'm frustrated by the fact that many things go unreported or the reporting is distorted. Among them the following:

In general the civilian : combatant ratio os 50/50. This has been true for centuries. In this war, it is closer to 61-63%/39%-37%. More children are dying that usual because of the way that the combatants have embedded themselves in the society. Yet still, that is not crazy far off the mark of all wars throughout all centuries.

When was the last time you heard casualties that counted terrorists in them. 20K people have been killed is the mantra. But if you use the stats then 13-14K are civilians and 6-7K are combatants. Why are we constantly conflating them in this war only?

Missiles are still raining down on Israel. The iron dome negates most of them but not all. Some still fly into bedrooms, living rooms, cars. All of them bring debris raining down indescriminantly from the sky. Shrapnel is everywhere, hitting anything.

13,000 missiles have been shot from Gaza. 2,000 of them have misfired and fallen back down into Gaza creating some of the havoc that we are seeing (clearly Israel is doing more damage), but some of the damage and death is attributable to that.

You can dismiss all of this as zionistic pr or you can take a minute and absorb that not everything is shameful unless it's shameful for all of humanity because no one is innocent in this.

Except the children. All the children on both sides are innocent.

I do have sympathy for those parents. And I think what Hamas did was horrible.

That doesn't give Israel an excuse to starve over 2 million people and inflict collective punishment on them.

36 children were killed on October 7. 8,800 Palestinian children have been killed since October 7. That's almost 250 Palestinian children killed for every 1 Israeli child.

Israel bombs schools. They bomb churches. They bomb mosques. They bomb apartments. They bomb hospitals. They bomb bakeries. They bomb wheat mills. They bomb water treatment plants. They bomb libraries, municipal buildings, and cultural institutions.

What Israel done in Gaza is horrific.

So sad Hamas started this war, does not care about their children, and hides amongst civilians like cowards, and refuse to give up the remaining hostages. What Hamas has done is horrific to its people.

What Hamas did was horrible but what Israel did both before and after 10/7 was even worse. You surely know that yet you still can’t shut up.

She wasn't talking about Israel, not a point in her discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see the New York Times has finally belatedly acknowledged that Hamas used horrific sexual violence against Israeli women on 10/7, though I assume that does not matter to the Hamas supporters here who denied the rapes occurred because there weren’t rape kits or whatever, just extremely graphic and extremely obvious videos.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html

I assume HRW and UN Women and all those supposed human rights organizations are still silent on the matter of Israeli women being sexually tortured by Hamas, but my standards for them are so low now that it’s not a surprise.

Do you not read the NYT very often? They have been covering this story for more than a month:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-israel-hamas-sexual-violence.html

Are you upset that they’re also covering the brutality in Gaza? Are you upset that they aren’t discussing these rapes more? What is the real problem because it certainly isn’t that NYT “just acknowledged” anything.

Nice derailing. The article you referenced does not actually confirm anything. It’s all allegedly and “Hamas denies” which is similar to the rape apologists here on DCUM. The reluctance to cover and give credence to what was blindingly obvious—that Hamas sexually tortured its victims—is horrifying.

What would be nice would be if the NYT was equally believing of victims. I am happy to have the brutality in Gaza covered but the disparity in how they discuss the victims is notable. Like here on DCUM, there is a clear desire to minimize, defend, and excuse the sexual torture the women experienced, while Gazan stories of brutality are easily believed.

I mean, whatever. I didn’t expect more from DCUM or the progressive left. You are all fine with rape and sexual torture when the victims are Jewish, that much is clear. The progressive left has embraced vicious misogyny across the board lately, so this is just the antisemitic version of that.

I have never seen the NYT not use “allegedly” when discussing sexual violence, until someone is convicted at which point they say “convicted of”.
Look at the coverage of Weinstein and even Epstein and you will see a lot of “alleged” and— reliably— “Weinstein/his attorney denied these claims”.

Something I hope the coverage leads to is that sexual violence shouldn’t be an afterthought, even in cases like this. I think people will be retraumatized by having their loved ones disinterred to have any chance of bringing their rapists to justice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Horrific rapes =/= ok to murder 22,000 people many via war crimes

I presume you have another way to remove Hamas from power and ensure the security of the Jewish people. A real, practical plan, no doubt! Let's hear it.

Let's also hear what you are doing in your activism that makes demands of Hamas and its many backers like Iran and Russia. Because surely you are not coming here merely to demand the Jews turn the other cheek.

They are not going to remove Hamas. They cannot do it. They are seeking vengeance.

Actually, they’re doing a reasonably good job so far.

Significant Hamas force reductions, significant Hamas infrastructure destroyed, substantial numbers of Hamas leaders eliminated.

Long way to go, and too soon to be sure, but if I were Israel, I’d be satisfied with military metrics so far.

Will they “destroy” Hamas? Probably not.

Will they destroy Hamas’s military capability? Quite possibly.

Yeah wonderful. Now lets talk about the fact that indiscriminately killing civilians creates more terrorists long term.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

DP: That's what war is, snowflake. It's what it has been for quite some time, in many countries, and most of the time, you just weren't paying attention.

Does it make more terrorists? Sure. But I'd imagine it also makes more people turn against the leaders who provoked it. I know that's who I'd be going after, were I Israeli or Palestinian. I don't mean violently. But I'd get them the hell out of power.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Horrific rapes =/= ok to murder 22,000 people many via war crimes

I presume you have another way to remove Hamas from power and ensure the security of the Jewish people. A real, practical plan, no doubt! Let's hear it.

Let's also hear what you are doing in your activism that makes demands of Hamas and its many backers like Iran and Russia. Because surely you are not coming here merely to demand the Jews turn the other cheek.

They are not going to remove Hamas. They cannot do it. They are seeking vengeance.

Actually, they’re doing a reasonably good job so far.

Significant Hamas force reductions, significant Hamas infrastructure destroyed, substantial numbers of Hamas leaders eliminated.

Long way to go, and too soon to be sure, but if I were Israel, I’d be satisfied with military metrics so far.

Will they “destroy” Hamas? Probably not.

Will they destroy Hamas’s military capability? Quite possibly.

Yeah wonderful. Now lets talk about the fact that indiscriminately killing civilians creates more terrorists long term.

I think that this argument is often overstated.

Fact is, the inability of the two sides to arrive at a peaceful solution “creates” terrorists, and has since 1947.

I’m sure that military action has some additional incremental effect, but it’s likely marginal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

DP: That's what war is, snowflake. It's what it has been for quite some time, in many countries, and most of the time, you just weren't paying attention.

Does it make more terrorists? Sure. But I'd imagine it also makes more people turn against the leaders who provoked it. I know that's who I'd be going after, were I Israeli or Palestinian. I don't mean violently. But I'd get them the hell out of power.

I’m the PP and you misread my post.

I agree that a building with 20 Hamas and 40 civilians is a legitimate military target.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

Is there some method I'm not aware of where you can implode tunnels and not having the buildings above them be affected?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

DP: That's what war is, snowflake. It's what it has been for quite some time, in many countries, and most of the time, you just weren't paying attention.

Does it make more terrorists? Sure. But I'd imagine it also makes more people turn against the leaders who provoked it. I know that's who I'd be going after, were I Israeli or Palestinian. I don't mean violently. But I'd get them the hell out of power.

I’m the PP and you misread my post.

I agree that a building with 20 Hamas and 40 civilians is a legitimate military target.

Apologies, it seems many here disagree. I just assumed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

DP.

We have different definitions of “bad guys”.

As a thought experiment, if 20 Hamas fighters are in an apartment building along with 40 civilians, would you say that it’s legitimate and appropriate to attack the building?

That’s fine I’m ok with different definitions of bad guys.

To your experiment, it would depend on who the 20 Hamas Fighters are. Sinwar and 19 friends? Yeah. The death of the 40 civilians credibly saves the lives of thousands. He’s credibly believed to have directed October 7. That’s tragic but proportionate. Similarly— 20 people who participated in Oct 7? Probably proportionate.

20 nobody rock throwers that can’t even for sure be linked to Hamas? 20 men of “fighting age”? No, that’s neither legitimate nor appropriate.