FAFSA - is middle-class waste time applying?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many likely were not taught to save.

That is not a character flaw, but it is an obstacle.

My DH and I were not taught this either, but being married and working together we have improved our financial literacy over decades and are lucky to have DCUM UMC salaries.

We are terrible savers, but if we can automate and never see the money that works for us.

I think the “pay yourself first”, meaning savings, mentality is great but hard for many people who don’t think long term to execute. This is not something taught in school or society. People do not talk about money and people don’t like feeling as if they do not make as much as their friends and neighbors. It is hard for many to say “I cannot afford that” because of shame.

It is easier to live on a salary of $150K than to have a salary of $300K and live on a salary of $150K.

Those that are better at savings appear to balance the pain of frugality with the joy of experiencing superiority.

People feel bad that private college is expensive and they cannot afford to give that to their children. College is crazy expensive. There are less expensive options.

Our children will be better off for not getting everything they want.

No, it’s easier to live off $300k and save a lot than 150k. Your poor choices are not colleges problem. It’s yours. We talk about money in our home all the time.

+1

Most seem to forget that life is all about choices. They could live off $150K easily. They just chose to spend more and save less. In fact, it would only take a few years living off $150K and they would have enough front loaded for college to increase their living up to $200K and still contribute to college and everything else.

There is so much holier than thou on this forum.

It takes resolve that many people do not have to earn $300K and live like year earn $150K.

Why don’t the people that make $150K live like they make $75K and save the difference? You could say this at any income level.

Look, I am not saying that people that make $300K should qualify for financial aid. They should not.

And there is a range of circumstances of families that have saved various amounts and will choose a variety of schools.

But all this condescension implying it is so easy ignores many of the realities of life. What is easy for one person is hard for another.

The more you earn, the easier it is to both save more than, and live more comfortably than those who make less.

Like yeah, sure it is disciplined to make 300k per year then live like you make 150k and save the other half. But you’re still living a much more comfortable life than someone earning 100k, or 75k.


We need a show like Wifeswap, except entire families just switch households snd living conditions and adopt eachother’s budgets. I would watch this show.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

I thought about this. If you google “what is middle class”, it will usually be some sort of distribution for the region area and break that up into tiers. But if you search things like how much did you need to make to afford x or y back when we grew up - potentially people in that middle income range could afford a home, healthcare, and if it was a good job with a pension, they also had a retirement. I live in a neighborhood where people had 4-5 kids or more (back in the 1960’s) , sometimes one income, sent the kids to Catholic school and they could retire with a pension and healthcare. Fast forward to today and say 120K for a family of four in Alexandria is considered middle income with 49% adults in the region - what that lifestyle looks like for middle income is different now than it was when we were growing up and it’s hard to say it’s a pick 3 - do you want to buy a single family home, fund retirement, have adequate healthcare, be able to have a parent stay home, pay for college etc. This shifts that you have to be in that tier beyond middle income to afford what back is generation ago was middle class. And one more income tier to live the lifestyle that was x years ago considered upper middle class.

We have a million times more wants than families had in the 60s and 70s.

What was considered middle class back then is comparable to what is considered lower class now.

Such as 3 generations in one home, 4 to 6 kids in a 3 bedroom - 1 bathroom house with no AC, a 10x12 ft eat in kitchen, no dishwasher, 1 small TV, 1 family car, eating out only on birthdays/special occasion, no tracel sports - SAT prep - private voice lessons - dance competition team - specialized summer camps, kids getting jobs around middle school like babysitting/mowing lawns, no flying vacations...

300K is rich and everyone posting here has a far more luxurious lifestyle than any middle class family from the 60s or 70s.

Exactly! Previous generations had a lot less stuff. We lived in much smaller homes, kids shared bedrooms, homes had 1-2 bathrooms not 4+, we ate 1-2 meals per month of takeout or at the restaurant, no 10-12/week, we didn't have AC (I grew up in the Midwest--we needed it), etc.

Mowed our own lawns, cleaned our own houses, painted and did minor repairs ourselves....

Hung our laundry on a line...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would like to hear more from UMC people about how College is a special consumer good where family income shouldn’t matter and the net price should be essentially zero when literally everything else in the world is allocated by family wealth, including “free” public school (you have to be able to afford to live in the district).

You thought it was fair when you bought your way into everything else in your lifestyle, well now welcome to the big leagues.

I don't think UMC families are saying that they should be given aid. Just lamenting that they cannot afford it, even if some insist that they can. Many of us have 529 accounts, but those funds didn't grow that much, even putting in more than $2500 per year per account, and we have multiple kids. It's enough for in state, but not 80k per year. When we started saving college was a bit cheaper. Several years ago, when my DC was in MS, we looked at an expensive private. It was $60K/year. Now it's closer to $85k per year. Saving $240k is doable. Saving closer to $350K is much harder.

If you still have 20 working years, I could see how you think you can afford to pull back on funding retirement, and save later, but if you are 55+, you don't have that luxury.

Obviously, saving only $2500/year/kid is not going to produce enough for $80K/year schools in 18 years (which will cost way more than 80K then).

Majority of kids have to pick schools they can afford, most cannot afford 80K/year, or they could but smartly realize that saved money would be nice to have for grad school.

Read bolded.. we saved way more than $2500 per year per account. We have two accounts per child. Still not enough to cover $80K per year per child given that the 529 didn't grow that much.

So why write it that way? How much did you save per year? Why did the 529 not grow that much? If you dont have it all in the growth market, it may not. But that is on you, as there are 529s that allow you to do that. You can pick one (may not be your state's) that allows you to select the MF to invest in. American Funds in VA is an excellent example. My kid's funds earned 8-9% annual on average during the aggressive years. We didn't pull back until age 15/16 to less aggressive.

DP. Even with 8-9% growth, saving 20K year since 2007 only gets you to ~600K after you factor in expense ratios etc. Not enough to cover 2 kids at 80-90K schools (and that is not even Harvard but say Amherst/Colorado College.) And this simple calculation doesn't actually account for the real fluctuations (e.g. crash in 2008/2009 and again in 2020. Yes, there were rebounds, but plugging in actual numbers and accounting for management fees only gets you to the number I quoted above. Colllege costs are ridiculous right now. And before you jump in with state options, DC doesn't have a state university (obv) and DCTAG helps but not as much.

If you chose to live in DC and have kids, you know there is no state option. So you have 18 years to consider moving to MD/VA if you want that option. It's all about choices, but this wasn't a surprise to you.

Yes college costs have increased drastically. But there are still plenty of excellent options for attending with no or minimal debt. Search merit at "2nd tier" schools or lower. My own 1500/3.98UW/9 AP kid got $42K/year at a T50 so instead of 80k+/year it would only be $40K. Could have gotten even more if they'd searched schools in the 60-120 range (didn't Because we don't need the merit, but point is they could find plenty of good options if needed).
So if you take off the blinders of believing you need to attend a T25 school, you can find something affordable for you.

For the life of me I cannot understand why the residential areas of DC aren't just returned to Maryland. DC is basically a Maryland city. They should be Maryland residents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FAFSA should be tiered based on geography. DMV people are getting nothing because we are all fabulously wealthy here despite living in small 2800 square foot houses with mortgages (that cost 1.3M)

I am the poster who said that 300k is not rich for this area (and i stand by that, given high cost of living here, mainly housing and child care). 300k is decent but not extravagant for this area.

That being said, hell no, someone making 300k should not be eligible for FAFSA. Those funds should go to people who truly actually need them, not a family that makes 300k and chooses to live in a 1.3m place (which frankly if at low interest rate of 2020/2021 is only like 5-6k a month anyway, which leaves like 10k for everything else).

Also lol 2800sq feet is small? Not sure if serious or not but if serious, you really need a reality check.

$300K is LOADED for this area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some non-need-based awards and scholarships required FAFSA on file.

This!

[Anonymous]

I would love to see some questions on css like, in the past 10 years have you:

Used a lawn service
Bought an appliance from the Viking/subzero family
Been a member of a country club
Leased a car for more than 600/mo


Etc etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would love to see some questions on css like, in the past 10 years have you:

Used a lawn service
Bought an appliance from the Viking/subzero family
Been a member of a country club
Leased a car for more than 600/mo


Etc etc

Paid for college counseling

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

I thought about this. If you google “what is middle class”, it will usually be some sort of distribution for the region area and break that up into tiers. But if you search things like how much did you need to make to afford x or y back when we grew up - potentially people in that middle income range could afford a home, healthcare, and if it was a good job with a pension, they also had a retirement. I live in a neighborhood where people had 4-5 kids or more (back in the 1960’s) , sometimes one income, sent the kids to Catholic school and they could retire with a pension and healthcare. Fast forward to today and say 120K for a family of four in Alexandria is considered middle income with 49% adults in the region - what that lifestyle looks like for middle income is different now than it was when we were growing up and it’s hard to say it’s a pick 3 - do you want to buy a single family home, fund retirement, have adequate healthcare, be able to have a parent stay home, pay for college etc. This shifts that you have to be in that tier beyond middle income to afford what back is generation ago was middle class. And one more income tier to live the lifestyle that was x years ago considered upper middle class.

We have a million times more wants than families had in the 60s and 70s.

What was considered middle class back then is comparable to what is considered lower class now.

Such as 3 generations in one home, 4 to 6 kids in a 3 bedroom - 1 bathroom house with no AC, a 10x12 ft eat in kitchen, no dishwasher, 1 small TV, 1 family car, eating out only on birthdays/special occasion, no tracel sports - SAT prep - private voice lessons - dance competition team - specialized summer camps, kids getting jobs around middle school like babysitting/mowing lawns, no flying vacations...

300K is rich and everyone posting here has a far more luxurious lifestyle than any middle class family from the 60s or 70s.

That’s an interesting point. But people, making 150K have more than 1 car, kids are on dance competition teams etc. Even if you didn’t do all those things, that doesn’t mean someone making 150K today could easily afford a home, raise 2 kids, retire, health insurance, pay for their kids to go to college (especially an 80K/year private college). There has been a rise in costs for everyone for the basics of “middle class” lifestyle- home ownership, food, retirement, healthcare and raising kids (https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-costs-raise-kid-us-americans-have-fewer-kids-2022-8?op=1) even for a no frill lifestyle. At the same time there is a rise in consumerism (or so it feels), that people don’t see having one car, no cell phones, kids sharing a room, no private lessons of any kind, no AC etc, but having a home as being as reached middle class lifestyle.

I’m not saying someone that makes 300K would qualify for need based aid. I’m just saying it makes sense to me why everyone is bickering. Middle income is not the same as middle-class lifestyle even though we act like it is the same thing. And we all have our own perceptions of what sort of lifestyle one should have making x amount of money when one is still working for their money opposed to their money working for them. I will stand by the statement that someone making 300K late in life (say kids in high school) and no family assistance is not living a baller/MTV Cribs lifestyle in the DC area unless they had helluva investments. And yes, that would put them in the top 15% (at least) of income for this area and they won’t qualify for aid. And to the people that say they fully affording everything we associate with a 2023 “middle class lifestyle” on 150K in the DC area with zero financial help from anyone - they need to drop the budget/financial details and teach a masterclass because honestly that’s the blueprint I needed to know in my mid-20’s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When we applied (three kids, upper middle class), we were told our expected family contribution was $209K a year, if that tells you anything. Meaning they would give aid after we spent 209K a year on college. I will say, some colleges are attempting to get to that, but to date, I believe that still means no aid anywhere

What is your income?

around 500K but think about 40% going to taxes and having to pay a nanny for younger kids. Etc Etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would love to see some questions on css like, in the past 10 years have you:

Used a lawn service
Bought an appliance from the Viking/subzero family
Been a member of a country club
Leased a car for more than 600/mo


Etc etc

Agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When we applied (three kids, upper middle class), we were told our expected family contribution was $209K a year, if that tells you anything. Meaning they would give aid after we spent 209K a year on college. I will say, some colleges are attempting to get to that, but to date, I believe that still means no aid anywhere

What is your income?

around 500K but think about 40% going to taxes and having to pay a nanny for younger kids. Etc Etc.

Seriously? You don’t need a nanny and you can comfortably full pay for college. You are not upper middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:around 500K but think about 40% going to taxes and having to pay a nanny for younger kids. Etc Etc.

We make that much too, and don't pay anywhere near an effective tax rate of 40 percent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

I thought about this. If you google “what is middle class”, it will usually be some sort of distribution for the region area and break that up into tiers. But if you search things like how much did you need to make to afford x or y back when we grew up - potentially people in that middle income range could afford a home, healthcare, and if it was a good job with a pension, they also had a retirement. I live in a neighborhood where people had 4-5 kids or more (back in the 1960’s) , sometimes one income, sent the kids to Catholic school and they could retire with a pension and healthcare. Fast forward to today and say 120K for a family of four in Alexandria is considered middle income with 49% adults in the region - what that lifestyle looks like for middle income is different now than it was when we were growing up and it’s hard to say it’s a pick 3 - do you want to buy a single family home, fund retirement, have adequate healthcare, be able to have a parent stay home, pay for college etc. This shifts that you have to be in that tier beyond middle income to afford what back is generation ago was middle class. And one more income tier to live the lifestyle that was x years ago considered upper middle class.

We have a million times more wants than families had in the 60s and 70s.

What was considered middle class back then is comparable to what is considered lower class now.

Such as 3 generations in one home, 4 to 6 kids in a 3 bedroom - 1 bathroom house with no AC, a 10x12 ft eat in kitchen, no dishwasher, 1 small TV, 1 family car, eating out only on birthdays/special occasion, no tracel sports - SAT prep - private voice lessons - dance competition team - specialized summer camps, kids getting jobs around middle school like babysitting/mowing lawns, no flying vacations...

300K is rich and everyone posting here has a far more luxurious lifestyle than any middle class family from the 60s or 70s.

That’s an interesting point. But people, making 150K have more than 1 car, kids are on dance competition teams etc. Even if you didn’t do all those things, that doesn’t mean someone making 150K today could easily afford a home, raise 2 kids, retire, health insurance, pay for their kids to go to college (especially an 80K/year private college). There has been a rise in costs for everyone for the basics of “middle class” lifestyle- home ownership, food, retirement, healthcare and raising kids (https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-costs-raise-kid-us-americans-have-fewer-kids-2022-8?op=1) even for a no frill lifestyle. At the same time there is a rise in consumerism (or so it feels), that people don’t see having one car, no cell phones, kids sharing a room, no private lessons of any kind, no AC etc, but having a home as being as reached middle class lifestyle.

I’m not saying someone that makes 300K would qualify for need based aid. I’m just saying it makes sense to me why everyone is bickering. Middle income is not the same as middle-class lifestyle even though we act like it is the same thing. And we all have our own perceptions of what sort of lifestyle one should have making x amount of money when one is still working for their money opposed to their money working for them. I will stand by the statement that someone making 300K late in life (say kids in high school) and no family assistance is not living a baller/MTV Cribs lifestyle in the DC area unless they had helluva investments. And yes, that would put them in the top 15% (at least) of income for this area and they won’t qualify for aid. And to the people that say they fully affording everything we associate with a 2023 “middle class lifestyle” on 150K in the DC area with zero financial help from anyone - they need to drop the budget/financial details and teach a masterclass because honestly that’s the blueprint I needed to know in my mid-20’s.

On $150K or so, our kids are in multiple expensive activities, private music lessons, we own our house (small, cheaper one), have college savings for a state college, retirement savings, and basically can do what we want within reason. We on the surface look middle class but we've managed our money well and made it work. So, I don't get screaming poverty. We could pay for a private college between income and savings if we need to. No family help (not even for babysitting in an emergency let alone money). And, we've had the normal SN kid, parent needing help, and other bad things happen.

But, what we aren't doing is expensive vacations a few times a year or even yearly, we shop at Aldi's, Lidl, Walmart and similar stores for food, stick with lower cost restaurants, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When we applied (three kids, upper middle class), we were told our expected family contribution was $209K a year, if that tells you anything. Meaning they would give aid after we spent 209K a year on college. I will say, some colleges are attempting to get to that, but to date, I believe that still means no aid anywhere

What is your income?

around 500K but think about 40% going to taxes and having to pay a nanny for younger kids. Etc Etc.

You're joking, right?
Oh my goodness, the entitlement. We make a third what you make with 2 kids that I cared for while working from home and when they were in preschool/ES. And, no, 40% of you income does not go to tax. Also, how much are you pulling in with capital gains on investments? Thise taxes are minimal, and did you even include those amounts?

You are freaking ridiculous. I agree with a PP, let's do a household finances swap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

I thought about this. If you google “what is middle class”, it will usually be some sort of distribution for the region area and break that up into tiers. But if you search things like how much did you need to make to afford x or y back when we grew up - potentially people in that middle income range could afford a home, healthcare, and if it was a good job with a pension, they also had a retirement. I live in a neighborhood where people had 4-5 kids or more (back in the 1960’s) , sometimes one income, sent the kids to Catholic school and they could retire with a pension and healthcare. Fast forward to today and say 120K for a family of four in Alexandria is considered middle income with 49% adults in the region - what that lifestyle looks like for middle income is different now than it was when we were growing up and it’s hard to say it’s a pick 3 - do you want to buy a single family home, fund retirement, have adequate healthcare, be able to have a parent stay home, pay for college etc. This shifts that you have to be in that tier beyond middle income to afford what back is generation ago was middle class. And one more income tier to live the lifestyle that was x years ago considered upper middle class.

We have a million times more wants than families had in the 60s and 70s.

What was considered middle class back then is comparable to what is considered lower class now.

Such as 3 generations in one home, 4 to 6 kids in a 3 bedroom - 1 bathroom house with no AC, a 10x12 ft eat in kitchen, no dishwasher, 1 small TV, 1 family car, eating out only on birthdays/special occasion, no tracel sports - SAT prep - private voice lessons - dance competition team - specialized summer camps, kids getting jobs around middle school like babysitting/mowing lawns, no flying vacations...

300K is rich and everyone posting here has a far more luxurious lifestyle than any middle class family from the 60s or 70s.

That’s an interesting point. But people, making 150K have more than 1 car, kids are on dance competition teams etc. Even if you didn’t do all those things, that doesn’t mean someone making 150K today could easily afford a home, raise 2 kids, retire, health insurance, pay for their kids to go to college (especially an 80K/year private college). There has been a rise in costs for everyone for the basics of “middle class” lifestyle- home ownership, food, retirement, healthcare and raising kids (https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-costs-raise-kid-us-americans-have-fewer-kids-2022-8?op=1) even for a no frill lifestyle. At the same time there is a rise in consumerism (or so it feels), that people don’t see having one car, no cell phones, kids sharing a room, no private lessons of any kind, no AC etc, but having a home as being as reached middle class lifestyle.

I’m not saying someone that makes 300K would qualify for need based aid. I’m just saying it makes sense to me why everyone is bickering. Middle income is not the same as middle-class lifestyle even though we act like it is the same thing. And we all have our own perceptions of what sort of lifestyle one should have making x amount of money when one is still working for their money opposed to their money working for them. I will stand by the statement that someone making 300K late in life (say kids in high school) and no family assistance is not living a baller/MTV Cribs lifestyle in the DC area unless they had helluva investments. And yes, that would put them in the top 15% (at least) of income for this area and they won’t qualify for aid. And to the people that say they fully affording everything we associate with a 2023 “middle class lifestyle” on 150K in the DC area with zero financial help from anyone - they need to drop the budget/financial details and teach a masterclass because honestly that’s the blueprint I needed to know in my mid-20’s.

On $150K or so, our kids are in multiple expensive activities, private music lessons, we own our house (small, cheaper one), have college savings for a state college, retirement savings, and basically can do what we want within reason. We on the surface look middle class but we've managed our money well and made it work. So, I don't get screaming poverty. We could pay for a private college between income and savings if we need to. No family help (not even for babysitting in an emergency let alone money). And, we've had the normal SN kid, parent needing help, and other bad things happen.

But, what we aren't doing is expensive vacations a few times a year or even yearly, we shop at Aldi's, Lidl, Walmart and similar stores for food, stick with lower cost restaurants, etc.

DP. I don't think any of us at 150k are screaming poverty. It's the 250k, 300k and 500k people "lamenting. " Oh, the injustice![facepalm]