Our Current Situation - Not thrilled

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can any state level policy maker explain why our states aren’t fighting over kids who want to major in computer science and got a 700+ on the math SAT? Aren’t these kids going to be the major innovators of the future? Generate enormous increases in quality of life for Americans and humanity at large? And generate large tax bills too? State policy makers should be bending over backwards to have vibrant and well-funded CS programs and fill them with as many kids as they can who can do the work.

They do. Just that posters here are shooting for the top state schools.

For example, there are tons of schools in CA to learn computer science, but a lot of people are just fixated on berkeley.

OP is also shooting for out of state at flagship state schools. State schools primarily exist to save in state students.

But wouldnt it be in Indiana’s interest to nab this kid? Even if there’s only a 5% chance he stays in state after graduation, it would be worth it financially to educate him. And even if he doesn’t stay in state, he will have connections with other kids who do and those connections will help the state.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I did not read the entire thread, but I hope you are staying positive for your kid. He has some excellent admittances and I would not be surprised if he gets offered a spot at Purdue.

UT Austin, Rice, and University of Washington were never going to happen. Georgia Tech is a toss up, but probably also a "no". Wisconsin seems like he should have a good shot.

I went through this with my kid last year. You need to be VERY positive about all of his acceptances and remind him why he likes those schools.

Huh. Why?? (not OP).

The kid has PERFECT stats.

So do thousands of others. (Tens or hundreds of thousands in TO world.)

You seriously think there are "hundreds of thousands" of high school seniors with perfect 4.0 uw GPAs AND who have taken 9 AP courses to include AP Physics, AP Calc BC, etc. AND who are Eagle Scouts AND have the equivalent of OP's kid's other accomplishments? No way.

NP here—hi OP. There may not be hundreds of thousands but there is certainly at least a hundred thousand. Public high schools give out 4.0s like candy. 100,000 would still be less than 1% of graduating seniors. So PP is right that there are hundreds of thousands of stellar students competing for the same spots. And there isn’t just one kind of “perfect.”

Come again?

It’s not less than 1%, but more like 2.5%. There are about 4 million graduating students—and that’s just the US. Point still stands, there are at least 100,000 students as stellar or more so than OP’s kid.

By GPA alone, sure. But you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the student has taken/is taking 9 APs across a range of subjects - to include ones likes AP Physics and AP Calc BC - on top of other achievements (Eagle Scouts, etc.). Are there thousands of equivalent kids? Yeah, probably. But 100,000? Again, no way.

Noooooobody cares about Eagle Scouts. It’s 2023, not 1995. Unless you get the 0.174% of admissions reps who are old men who were themselves Eagle Scouts and still think it’s a big deal that should factor into highly competitive admissions.

Whether or not you value scouts, everyone knows becoming an Eagle Scout takes hard work and commitment. Both attributes are likely valued by AOs.

+1

+2 The anti Eagle Scout crowd has no idea of the time and commitment involved and the resulting positive influence it has on the young person with discipline, work ethic, and philanthropic ideas/actions. I suspect individual bias is the impetus behind these negative views but such is life, especially in 2023.

Nobody is saying that Eagle Scout is not an accomplishment, people are saying that it isn't going to move the needle to get your kid into an elite university. My guess is that this has been true since the 90s at least.

Everyone says elite colleges want to see ECs that involve passion and commitment. Eagle Scout does that.

Not really. I know several Eagle Scouts and I wouldn't call any of them passionate. They attended lots of meetings and did lots of fun projects, and ultimately a project (that lots of the moms helped them with). Definitely time consuming. But highly structured and not something, if I were judging based on what I know, would describe as passion and commitment.

One kid I know did some weeding and build a park bench. Roll out the red carpet to Harvard and Yale!

——-/——

Two of my kids are Eagle Scouts - now 24 and 21.

Scouting is a good kid thing that is fantastic through the middle school years in particular. If you raced, you could get through the requirements by 14. The vast majority are 16/17 when they finish if they keep going to try and reach the Eagle rank. You have to work through various levels over time, earn merit badges of certain numbers and types. Do leadership roles within the troop for at least specific time periods (6 months typically). Do a certain number of overnights camping, and more. The Eagle project itself is one part of getting to that rank. It is not about what is done. It is about the process of doing something like that. Projects can only benefit 501(c)(3)s, approved established charities, and government entities. Kids bounce ideas off an adult project coordinator within their troop. They typically explore 4 or 5 options and 2 or maybe 3 seriously. Kids talk to appropriate people about projects, develop cost estimates, calculate labor requirements, figure out approval processes. Projects must use group labor. The Scout has to write everything up in advance and get their plan approved by a review board (not part of the troop) in advance. Then the Scout must’ve proceed to plan and schedule the actual work. They need to raise money for supplies, create and coordinate a work schedule, track and account for money raised and things purchased, deal with and document changes. They also track all labor. Who worked and many hours. Process all volunteer time paperwork (for kids who get school credit), and then write up a final report. After the report is submitted (outside the troop) it is reviewed - usually a follow up question or two is asked just like a supervisor might - then it is approved.

For many kids the project is the last requirement needed to reach the Eagle rank, but for a good number there are still things to complete. You have until age 18.

So - let’s say a kid wants to install two seating benches and plantings around the flag pole outside City Hall as their Eagle project. Okay. How do they do that? The kid will work with their parents and the troop project coordinator to figure out the process. Step 1: Does the City want the project? Maybe they have other plans for the space. Maybe the work will be a pain to mow around. You have to figure out who in the city to talk too. You, the Scout, has to go talk to them and pitch the project. They may have to pitch the project to the Mayor or City Council. How do you get that done? You learn how to make a proposal. You learn how to present your proposal and practice so you are comfortable enough. You practice anticipating likely questions.

Now - originally - the thought may have been to buy two good benches from Lowe’s, but the City requires sturdier benches and they need to be affixed. You work with the grounds person to decide what gets installed, and you get all necessary approvals for that. Let’s say the plan was for $400 in cost to buy 2 benches, but the new plan costs $1500. How do you adapt your fund raising? Maybe go see the VFW leadership and the City beautification Board. You attend their meetings and get their approvals. And, you still have not put a shovel in the ground.

With the money you buy the benches and other materials. You have them delivered to a good location. You thought your home first, but can you get them to City Hall later? Can you use the Troop trailer? How do you get permission to do that? How do you get kids and adults to turn up at City Hall on the day and time? What do you fo if it rains? Will you provide lunch? Drinks? Did you budget for that? What about first aid coverage? Do you have the right tools and supplies? Have you ever used cement in a hole before? Did you practice? Can you explain the process to other scouts at the site? What other work is to be done - are you making garden beds too? What plantings have you planned and why those? How did you adapt the project when your team started digging and found that the current flag pole cement pad was laid over a cement sidewalk in one area that was just covered with 6inches of dirt and sod.

Afterwards, including clean up and meetings with City government folks to ensure they are satisfied, you do your final write up. It gets read and approved by you, the person at the City who oversaw the project, and your troop Eagle project coordinator. That report is then sent to be reviewed and approved by BSA.

Ta-dah Now you know a neighbor’s kid who just stuck a couple benches and some flowers by a flag pole to get her Eagle.

——/

My kids have “Eagle Scout” on their resume currently in the Personal Interest part. It reads: Camping and hiking. (Eagle Scout).

The stuff they learned can be learned elsewhere of course. But, they learned it in Scouts. A couple years ago my youngest was working nights at an ice packing plant. 2 guys bagging ice and loading trucks to go out in the morning. His co-worker got his hand caught in a gear breaking 3 fingers. My kid used his first aid knowledge to stabilize the hand and arm, and control the bleeding. He shut down the plant and drove his co-worker to the ER. Didn’t panic.

Used stuff he learned in Scouts. And - both have been asked in interviews to prove they are Eagle Scouts. They carry a card in their wallet. They guys who asked then showed them their cards.

I read college applications for a large public university. This is all well and good, but if the student doesn't explain more about the process in the application, it can still read like a "kid who just stuck a couple benches and some flowers by a flag pole to get her Eagle."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I did not read the entire thread, but I hope you are staying positive for your kid. He has some excellent admittances and I would not be surprised if he gets offered a spot at Purdue.

UT Austin, Rice, and University of Washington were never going to happen. Georgia Tech is a toss up, but probably also a "no". Wisconsin seems like he should have a good shot.

I went through this with my kid last year. You need to be VERY positive about all of his acceptances and remind him why he likes those schools.

Huh. Why?? (not OP).

The kid has PERFECT stats.

So do thousands of others. (Tens or hundreds of thousands in TO world.)

You seriously think there are "hundreds of thousands" of high school seniors with perfect 4.0 uw GPAs AND who have taken 9 AP courses to include AP Physics, AP Calc BC, etc. AND who are Eagle Scouts AND have the equivalent of OP's kid's other accomplishments? No way.

NP here—hi OP. There may not be hundreds of thousands but there is certainly at least a hundred thousand. Public high schools give out 4.0s like candy. 100,000 would still be less than 1% of graduating seniors. So PP is right that there are hundreds of thousands of stellar students competing for the same spots. And there isn’t just one kind of “perfect.”

Come again?

It’s not less than 1%, but more like 2.5%. There are about 4 million graduating students—and that’s just the US. Point still stands, there are at least 100,000 students as stellar or more so than OP’s kid.

By GPA alone, sure. But you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the student has taken/is taking 9 APs across a range of subjects - to include ones likes AP Physics and AP Calc BC - on top of other achievements (Eagle Scouts, etc.). Are there thousands of equivalent kids? Yeah, probably. But 100,000? Again, no way.

Noooooobody cares about Eagle Scouts. It’s 2023, not 1995. Unless you get the 0.174% of admissions reps who are old men who were themselves Eagle Scouts and still think it’s a big deal that should factor into highly competitive admissions.

Whether or not you value scouts, everyone knows becoming an Eagle Scout takes hard work and commitment. Both attributes are likely valued by AOs.

+1

+2 The anti Eagle Scout crowd has no idea of the time and commitment involved and the resulting positive influence it has on the young person with discipline, work ethic, and philanthropic ideas/actions. I suspect individual bias is the impetus behind these negative views but such is life, especially in 2023.

Nobody is saying that Eagle Scout is not an accomplishment, people are saying that it isn't going to move the needle to get your kid into an elite university. My guess is that this has been true since the 90s at least.

Everyone says elite colleges want to see ECs that involve passion and commitment. Eagle Scout does that.

Not really. I know several Eagle Scouts and I wouldn't call any of them passionate. They attended lots of meetings and did lots of fun projects, and ultimately a project (that lots of the moms helped them with). Definitely time consuming. But highly structured and not something, if I were judging based on what I know, would describe as passion and commitment.

One kid I know did some weeding and build a park bench. Roll out the red carpet to Harvard and Yale!

——-/——

Two of my kids are Eagle Scouts - now 24 and 21.

Scouting is a good kid thing that is fantastic through the middle school years in particular. If you raced, you could get through the requirements by 14. The vast majority are 16/17 when they finish if they keep going to try and reach the Eagle rank. You have to work through various levels over time, earn merit badges of certain numbers and types. Do leadership roles within the troop for at least specific time periods (6 months typically). Do a certain number of overnights camping, and more. The Eagle project itself is one part of getting to that rank. It is not about what is done. It is about the process of doing something like that. Projects can only benefit 501(c)(3)s, approved established charities, and government entities. Kids bounce ideas off an adult project coordinator within their troop. They typically explore 4 or 5 options and 2 or maybe 3 seriously. Kids talk to appropriate people about projects, develop cost estimates, calculate labor requirements, figure out approval processes. Projects must use group labor. The Scout has to write everything up in advance and get their plan approved by a review board (not part of the troop) in advance. Then the Scout must’ve proceed to plan and schedule the actual work. They need to raise money for supplies, create and coordinate a work schedule, track and account for money raised and things purchased, deal with and document changes. They also track all labor. Who worked and many hours. Process all volunteer time paperwork (for kids who get school credit), and then write up a final report. After the report is submitted (outside the troop) it is reviewed - usually a follow up question or two is asked just like a supervisor might - then it is approved.

For many kids the project is the last requirement needed to reach the Eagle rank, but for a good number there are still things to complete. You have until age 18.

So - let’s say a kid wants to install two seating benches and plantings around the flag pole outside City Hall as their Eagle project. Okay. How do they do that? The kid will work with their parents and the troop project coordinator to figure out the process. Step 1: Does the City want the project? Maybe they have other plans for the space. Maybe the work will be a pain to mow around. You have to figure out who in the city to talk too. You, the Scout, has to go talk to them and pitch the project. They may have to pitch the project to the Mayor or City Council. How do you get that done? You learn how to make a proposal. You learn how to present your proposal and practice so you are comfortable enough. You practice anticipating likely questions.

Now - originally - the thought may have been to buy two good benches from Lowe’s, but the City requires sturdier benches and they need to be affixed. You work with the grounds person to decide what gets installed, and you get all necessary approvals for that. Let’s say the plan was for $400 in cost to buy 2 benches, but the new plan costs $1500. How do you adapt your fund raising? Maybe go see the VFW leadership and the City beautification Board. You attend their meetings and get their approvals. And, you still have not put a shovel in the ground.

With the money you buy the benches and other materials. You have them delivered to a good location. You thought your home first, but can you get them to City Hall later? Can you use the Troop trailer? How do you get permission to do that? How do you get kids and adults to turn up at City Hall on the day and time? What do you fo if it rains? Will you provide lunch? Drinks? Did you budget for that? What about first aid coverage? Do you have the right tools and supplies? Have you ever used cement in a hole before? Did you practice? Can you explain the process to other scouts at the site? What other work is to be done - are you making garden beds too? What plantings have you planned and why those? How did you adapt the project when your team started digging and found that the current flag pole cement pad was laid over a cement sidewalk in one area that was just covered with 6inches of dirt and sod.

Afterwards, including clean up and meetings with City government folks to ensure they are satisfied, you do your final write up. It gets read and approved by you, the person at the City who oversaw the project, and your troop Eagle project coordinator. That report is then sent to be reviewed and approved by BSA.

Ta-dah Now you know a neighbor’s kid who just stuck a couple benches and some flowers by a flag pole to get her Eagle.

——/

My kids have “Eagle Scout” on their resume currently in the Personal Interest part. It reads: Camping and hiking. (Eagle Scout).

The stuff they learned can be learned elsewhere of course. But, they learned it in Scouts. A couple years ago my youngest was working nights at an ice packing plant. 2 guys bagging ice and loading trucks to go out in the morning. His co-worker got his hand caught in a gear breaking 3 fingers. My kid used his first aid knowledge to stabilize the hand and arm, and control the bleeding. He shut down the plant and drove his co-worker to the ER. Didn’t panic.

Used stuff he learned in Scouts. And - both have been asked in interviews to prove they are Eagle Scouts. They carry a card in their wallet. They guys who asked then showed them their cards.

I read college applications for a large public university. This is all well and good, but if the student doesn't explain more about the process in the application, it can still read like a "kid who just stuck a couple benches and some flowers by a flag pole to get her Eagle."

You understand.

[Anonymous]

This list is so random and feels like safetys for in-state kids but odd choices for out of state. Is it a $ driven list? Where are the highly-ranked privates besides Rice?

[Anonymous]

I read college applications for a large public university. This is all well and good, but if the student doesn't explain more about the process in the application, it can still read like a "kid who just stuck a couple benches and some flowers by a flag pole to get her Eagle."




Do you think a kid who plays trumpet in a Jazz band that performs in local venues picked up the instrument a week ago? The kid who has a painting hanging in the boardroom of a large bank bought a brush and some paint at ACE Hardware earlier this month? Did the kid who came up with the program to track open parking spaces just hit some buttons on her phone? Eagle Scouts are not new. Over 100 years old.

My advice - if a kid puts something on an application that you do not know about - learn about it. Then you will know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I did not read the entire thread, but I hope you are staying positive for your kid. He has some excellent admittances and I would not be surprised if he gets offered a spot at Purdue.

UT Austin, Rice, and University of Washington were never going to happen. Georgia Tech is a toss up, but probably also a "no". Wisconsin seems like he should have a good shot.

I went through this with my kid last year. You need to be VERY positive about all of his acceptances and remind him why he likes those schools.

Huh. Why?? (not OP).

The kid has PERFECT stats.

So do thousands of others. (Tens or hundreds of thousands in TO world.)

You seriously think there are "hundreds of thousands" of high school seniors with perfect 4.0 uw GPAs AND who have taken 9 AP courses to include AP Physics, AP Calc BC, etc. AND who are Eagle Scouts AND have the equivalent of OP's kid's other accomplishments? No way.

NP here—hi OP. There may not be hundreds of thousands but there is certainly at least a hundred thousand. Public high schools give out 4.0s like candy. 100,000 would still be less than 1% of graduating seniors. So PP is right that there are hundreds of thousands of stellar students competing for the same spots. And there isn’t just one kind of “perfect.”

Come again?

It’s not less than 1%, but more like 2.5%. There are about 4 million graduating students—and that’s just the US. Point still stands, there are at least 100,000 students as stellar or more so than OP’s kid.

By GPA alone, sure. But you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the student has taken/is taking 9 APs across a range of subjects - to include ones likes AP Physics and AP Calc BC - on top of other achievements (Eagle Scouts, etc.). Are there thousands of equivalent kids? Yeah, probably. But 100,000? Again, no way.

Noooooobody cares about Eagle Scouts. It’s 2023, not 1995. Unless you get the 0.174% of admissions reps who are old men who were themselves Eagle Scouts and still think it’s a big deal that should factor into highly competitive admissions.

Whether or not you value scouts, everyone knows becoming an Eagle Scout takes hard work and commitment. Both attributes are likely valued by AOs.

+1

+2 The anti Eagle Scout crowd has no idea of the time and commitment involved and the resulting positive influence it has on the young person with discipline, work ethic, and philanthropic ideas/actions. I suspect individual bias is the impetus behind these negative views but such is life, especially in 2023.

Nobody is saying that Eagle Scout is not an accomplishment, people are saying that it isn't going to move the needle to get your kid into an elite university. My guess is that this has been true since the 90s at least.

Everyone says elite colleges want to see ECs that involve passion and commitment. Eagle Scout does that.

Not really. I know several Eagle Scouts and I wouldn't call any of them passionate. They attended lots of meetings and did lots of fun projects, and ultimately a project (that lots of the moms helped them with). Definitely time consuming. But highly structured and not something, if I were judging based on what I know, would describe as passion and commitment.

One kid I know did some weeding and build a park bench. Roll out the red carpet to Harvard and Yale!

——-/——

Two of my kids are Eagle Scouts - now 24 and 21.

Scouting is a good kid thing that is fantastic through the middle school years in particular. If you raced, you could get through the requirements by 14. The vast majority are 16/17 when they finish if they keep going to try and reach the Eagle rank. You have to work through various levels over time, earn merit badges of certain numbers and types. Do leadership roles within the troop for at least specific time periods (6 months typically). Do a certain number of overnights camping, and more. The Eagle project itself is one part of getting to that rank. It is not about what is done. It is about the process of doing something like that. Projects can only benefit 501(c)(3)s, approved established charities, and government entities. Kids bounce ideas off an adult project coordinator within their troop. They typically explore 4 or 5 options and 2 or maybe 3 seriously. Kids talk to appropriate people about projects, develop cost estimates, calculate labor requirements, figure out approval processes. Projects must use group labor. The Scout has to write everything up in advance and get their plan approved by a review board (not part of the troop) in advance. Then the Scout must’ve proceed to plan and schedule the actual work. They need to raise money for supplies, create and coordinate a work schedule, track and account for money raised and things purchased, deal with and document changes. They also track all labor. Who worked and many hours. Process all volunteer time paperwork (for kids who get school credit), and then write up a final report. After the report is submitted (outside the troop) it is reviewed - usually a follow up question or two is asked just like a supervisor might - then it is approved.

For many kids the project is the last requirement needed to reach the Eagle rank, but for a good number there are still things to complete. You have until age 18.

So - let’s say a kid wants to install two seating benches and plantings around the flag pole outside City Hall as their Eagle project. Okay. How do they do that? The kid will work with their parents and the troop project coordinator to figure out the process. Step 1: Does the City want the project? Maybe they have other plans for the space. Maybe the work will be a pain to mow around. You have to figure out who in the city to talk too. You, the Scout, has to go talk to them and pitch the project. They may have to pitch the project to the Mayor or City Council. How do you get that done? You learn how to make a proposal. You learn how to present your proposal and practice so you are comfortable enough. You practice anticipating likely questions.

Now - originally - the thought may have been to buy two good benches from Lowe’s, but the City requires sturdier benches and they need to be affixed. You work with the grounds person to decide what gets installed, and you get all necessary approvals for that. Let’s say the plan was for $400 in cost to buy 2 benches, but the new plan costs $1500. How do you adapt your fund raising? Maybe go see the VFW leadership and the City beautification Board. You attend their meetings and get their approvals. And, you still have not put a shovel in the ground.

With the money you buy the benches and other materials. You have them delivered to a good location. You thought your home first, but can you get them to City Hall later? Can you use the Troop trailer? How do you get permission to do that? How do you get kids and adults to turn up at City Hall on the day and time? What do you fo if it rains? Will you provide lunch? Drinks? Did you budget for that? What about first aid coverage? Do you have the right tools and supplies? Have you ever used cement in a hole before? Did you practice? Can you explain the process to other scouts at the site? What other work is to be done - are you making garden beds too? What plantings have you planned and why those? How did you adapt the project when your team started digging and found that the current flag pole cement pad was laid over a cement sidewalk in one area that was just covered with 6inches of dirt and sod.

Afterwards, including clean up and meetings with City government folks to ensure they are satisfied, you do your final write up. It gets read and approved by you, the person at the City who oversaw the project, and your troop Eagle project coordinator. That report is then sent to be reviewed and approved by BSA.

Ta-dah Now you know a neighbor’s kid who just stuck a couple benches and some flowers by a flag pole to get her Eagle.

——/

My kids have “Eagle Scout” on their resume currently in the Personal Interest part. It reads: Camping and hiking. (Eagle Scout).

The stuff they learned can be learned elsewhere of course. But, they learned it in Scouts. A couple years ago my youngest was working nights at an ice packing plant. 2 guys bagging ice and loading trucks to go out in the morning. His co-worker got his hand caught in a gear breaking 3 fingers. My kid used his first aid knowledge to stabilize the hand and arm, and control the bleeding. He shut down the plant and drove his co-worker to the ER. Didn’t panic.

Used stuff he learned in Scouts. And - both have been asked in interviews to prove they are Eagle Scouts. They carry a card in their wallet. They guys who asked then showed them their cards.

I read college applications for a large public university. This is all well and good, but if the student doesn't explain more about the process in the application, it can still read like a "kid who just stuck a couple benches and some flowers by a flag pole to get her Eagle."

You understand.

That's true with any EC, they need to be presented well in the app to have value. ECs in general rank low in the evaluation criteria in terms of importance for most schools and anyone banking on an EC as the thing to get them admitted is probably not the best move. ECs should among other things demonstrate leadership, commitment, service, time management, responsibility etc. An Eagle Scout can demonstrate all of these if presented well. It should not be their only EC and there are many ECs that can demonstrate these criteria at least as well. A lot of it comes down to the student, they should be engaged with ECs that mean something to them so hopefully they get something out of it and are not just checking a box for college admission sake. Not the PP in this thread, but am the parent of more than one Eagle Scout and of course know several more. For this current group of kids Eagle Scout was one (just one) of their ECs and all are happy at the moment with the acceptances they have. The Eagle Scout EC is not what got them admitted, they are all high achievers and the Eagle EC was just an element of their applications and the process of becoming an Eagle was a shared experience over a number of years that has resulted in a close group of friends. I hope that other kids that have different ECs that mean something to them also get what they are looking for from their chosen ECs and more importantly enjoy the experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can any state level policy maker explain why our states aren’t fighting over kids who want to major in computer science and got a 700+ on the math SAT? Aren’t these kids going to be the major innovators of the future? Generate enormous increases in quality of life for Americans and humanity at large? And generate large tax bills too? State policy makers should be bending over backwards to have vibrant and well-funded CS programs and fill them with as many kids as they can who can do the work.

They do. Just that posters here are shooting for the top state schools.

For example, there are tons of schools in CA to learn computer science, but a lot of people are just fixated on berkeley.

OP is also shooting for out of state at flagship state schools. State schools primarily exist to save in state students.

But wouldnt it be in Indiana’s interest to nab this kid? Even if there’s only a 5% chance he stays in state after graduation, it would be worth it financially to educate him. And even if he doesn’t stay in state, he will have connections with other kids who do and those connections will help the state.

But you are assuming they don't have many other kids to choose from that scored over 700+ on the math SAT. According to Common App there are as many as 70,000 students mostly applying to flagships and other top programs. Also, CS is a popular major, and as the PP noted, state schools are there to serve their own students. Finally, you assume that there are enough resources on any campus to expand CS programs (especially public institutions). There are infrastructure factors, labor (faculty), etc. that need to be considered. Just because a state provides more funding doesn't mean there are people to teach, for example. Even with high salaries (for academia), it is difficult to compete with the private sector and students (and parents) do not want adjuncts teaching most of the classes. Also, public universities are not CS schools--there are other majors that need resources, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can any state level policy maker explain why our states aren’t fighting over kids who want to major in computer science and got a 700+ on the math SAT? Aren’t these kids going to be the major innovators of the future? Generate enormous increases in quality of life for Americans and humanity at large? And generate large tax bills too? State policy makers should be bending over backwards to have vibrant and well-funded CS programs and fill them with as many kids as they can who can do the work.

They do. Just that posters here are shooting for the top state schools.

For example, there are tons of schools in CA to learn computer science, but a lot of people are just fixated on berkeley.

And for undergrad, majority of those students would get a much better academic experience at any of those other schools---where they won't be fighting to get into the necessary courses, won't be sitting in courses with 500+ students, where they wont be fighting for computer lab time, etc... Undergrad CS major is pretty much the same courses everywhere. The research opportunities at Berkeley are not readily available for undergrads, the courses are often taught by TAs. B is a place to go for grad school, not undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can any state level policy maker explain why our states aren’t fighting over kids who want to major in computer science and got a 700+ on the math SAT? Aren’t these kids going to be the major innovators of the future? Generate enormous increases in quality of life for Americans and humanity at large? And generate large tax bills too? State policy makers should be bending over backwards to have vibrant and well-funded CS programs and fill them with as many kids as they can who can do the work.

They do. Just that posters here are shooting for the top state schools.

For example, there are tons of schools in CA to learn computer science, but a lot of people are just fixated on berkeley.

I
And for undergrad, majority of those students would get a much better academic experience at any of those other schools---where they won't be fighting to get into the necessary courses, won't be sitting in courses with 500+ students, where they wont be fighting for computer lab time, etc... Undergrad CS major is pretty much the same courses everywhere. The research opportunities at Berkeley are not readily available for undergrads, the courses are often taught by TAs. B is a place to go for grad school, not undergrad.

Berkeley attracts a lot to good CS kids because of its number 1 rank in CS. That is one of the reason kids want to go there. CS lower division classes are currently crowded everywhere. My DS is at Berkeley and says while classes are crowded , he is surrounded by very motivated and talented kids making his experience worthwhile. But I get your point about it being crowded and that was our initial fear as well.

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Anonymous wrote:Can any state level policy maker explain why our states aren’t fighting over kids who want to major in computer science and got a 700+ on the math SAT? Aren’t these kids going to be the major innovators of the future? Generate enormous increases in quality of life for Americans and humanity at large? And generate large tax bills too? State policy makers should be bending over backwards to have vibrant and well-funded CS programs and fill them with as many kids as they can who can do the work.

They do. Just that posters here are shooting for the top state schools.

For example, there are tons of schools in CA to learn computer science, but a lot of people are just fixated on berkeley.

And for undergrad, majority of those students would get a much better academic experience at any of those other schools---where they won't be fighting to get into the necessary courses, won't be sitting in courses with 500+ students, where they wont be fighting for computer lab time, etc... Undergrad CS major is pretty much the same courses everywhere. The research opportunities at Berkeley are not readily available for undergrads, the courses are often taught by TAs. B is a place to go for grad school, not undergrad.

+100 A long time ago I turned down Berkeley for Cal Poly SLO (when both were a lot less selective than now) for undergrad. The smaller, undergrad focused school was absolutely the right choice for me as a smart but shy and insecure HS senior. Had a great time there and built my confidence. UCLA for grad school.

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Anonymous wrote:Madison CS is stuffed to the brim and overflowing. Great program but CROWDED. I wouldn't be too upset about this deferral and I wouldn't be too excited about an admission. Apparently you declare a CS major later and there is currently no cap on the program. You can get much better experiences elsewhere where the number of kids is limited. Seems like EVERYONE wants to do CS these days.

And most will be displaced by AI. Be very careful if your kid wants to go into CS. The small availability to program AI will be incredibly competitive...

You are correct if you consider CS to be a technical degree that teaches coding. There will always be a need for people who can develop the newest tech -- whatever it is that follows AI.

+1 it is almost as if PP doesn't understand who invented AI.

Machine learning? An offshoot of statistics. So “invented” by applied mathematicians. Not dragging on CS majors at all. But they are nut being trained (at the undergrad level) to handle the potential disruptions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can any state level policy maker explain why our states aren’t fighting over kids who want to major in computer science and got a 700+ on the math SAT? Aren’t these kids going to be the major innovators of the future? Generate enormous increases in quality of life for Americans and humanity at large? And generate large tax bills too? State policy makers should be bending over backwards to have vibrant and well-funded CS programs and fill them with as many kids as they can who can do the work.

They are certainly going to be a part of our future. As to what the future skills tech needs, we don’t know necessarily what those are right now. Maybe what is being taught in CS. Maybe something emerging from physics or math or neuroscience.

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Anonymous wrote:OP, I did not read the entire thread, but I hope you are staying positive for your kid. He has some excellent admittances and I would not be surprised if he gets offered a spot at Purdue.

UT Austin, Rice, and University of Washington were never going to happen. Georgia Tech is a toss up, but probably also a "no". Wisconsin seems like he should have a good shot.

I went through this with my kid last year. You need to be VERY positive about all of his acceptances and remind him why he likes those schools.

Huh. Why?? (not OP).

The kid has PERFECT stats.

So do thousands of others. (Tens or hundreds of thousands in TO world.)

You seriously think there are "hundreds of thousands" of high school seniors with perfect 4.0 uw GPAs AND who have taken 9 AP courses to include AP Physics, AP Calc BC, etc. AND who are Eagle Scouts AND have the equivalent of OP's kid's other accomplishments? No way.

NP here—hi OP. There may not be hundreds of thousands but there is certainly at least a hundred thousand. Public high schools give out 4.0s like candy. 100,000 would still be less than 1% of graduating seniors. So PP is right that there are hundreds of thousands of stellar students competing for the same spots. And there isn’t just one kind of “perfect.”

Come again?

It’s not less than 1%, but more like 2.5%. There are about 4 million graduating students—and that’s just the US. Point still stands, there are at least 100,000 students as stellar or more so than OP’s kid.

By GPA alone, sure. But you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the student has taken/is taking 9 APs across a range of subjects - to include ones likes AP Physics and AP Calc BC - on top of other achievements (Eagle Scouts, etc.). Are there thousands of equivalent kids? Yeah, probably. But 100,000? Again, no way.

Noooooobody cares about Eagle Scouts. It’s 2023, not 1995. Unless you get the 0.174% of admissions reps who are old men who were themselves Eagle Scouts and still think it’s a big deal that should factor into highly competitive admissions.

Whether or not you value scouts, everyone knows becoming an Eagle Scout takes hard work and commitment. Both attributes are likely valued by AOs.

+1

+2 The anti Eagle Scout crowd has no idea of the time and commitment involved and the resulting positive influence it has on the young person with discipline, work ethic, and philanthropic ideas/actions. I suspect individual bias is the impetus behind these negative views but such is life, especially in 2023.

Nobody is saying that Eagle Scout is not an accomplishment, people are saying that it isn't going to move the needle to get your kid into an elite university. My guess is that this has been true since the 90s at least.

Everyone says elite colleges want to see ECs that involve passion and commitment. Eagle Scout does that.

Not really. I know several Eagle Scouts and I wouldn't call any of them passionate. They attended lots of meetings and did lots of fun projects, and ultimately a project (that lots of the moms helped them with). Definitely time consuming. But highly structured and not something, if I were judging based on what I know, would describe as passion and commitment.

One kid I know did some weeding and build a park bench. Roll out the red carpet to Harvard and Yale!

——-/——

Two of my kids are Eagle Scouts - now 24 and 21.

Scouting is a good kid thing that is fantastic through the middle school years in particular. If you raced, you could get through the requirements by 14. The vast majority are 16/17 when they finish if they keep going to try and reach the Eagle rank. You have to work through various levels over time, earn merit badges of certain numbers and types. Do leadership roles within the troop for at least specific time periods (6 months typically). Do a certain number of overnights camping, and more. The Eagle project itself is one part of getting to that rank. It is not about what is done. It is about the process of doing something like that. Projects can only benefit 501(c)(3)s, approved established charities, and government entities. Kids bounce ideas off an adult project coordinator within their troop. They typically explore 4 or 5 options and 2 or maybe 3 seriously. Kids talk to appropriate people about projects, develop cost estimates, calculate labor requirements, figure out approval processes. Projects must use group labor. The Scout has to write everything up in advance and get their plan approved by a review board (not part of the troop) in advance. Then the Scout must’ve proceed to plan and schedule the actual work. They need to raise money for supplies, create and coordinate a work schedule, track and account for money raised and things purchased, deal with and document changes. They also track all labor. Who worked and many hours. Process all volunteer time paperwork (for kids who get school credit), and then write up a final report. After the report is submitted (outside the troop) it is reviewed - usually a follow up question or two is asked just like a supervisor might - then it is approved.

For many kids the project is the last requirement needed to reach the Eagle rank, but for a good number there are still things to complete. You have until age 18.

So - let’s say a kid wants to install two seating benches and plantings around the flag pole outside City Hall as their Eagle project. Okay. How do they do that? The kid will work with their parents and the troop project coordinator to figure out the process. Step 1: Does the City want the project? Maybe they have other plans for the space. Maybe the work will be a pain to mow around. You have to figure out who in the city to talk too. You, the Scout, has to go talk to them and pitch the project. They may have to pitch the project to the Mayor or City Council. How do you get that done? You learn how to make a proposal. You learn how to present your proposal and practice so you are comfortable enough. You practice anticipating likely questions.

Now - originally - the thought may have been to buy two good benches from Lowe’s, but the City requires sturdier benches and they need to be affixed. You work with the grounds person to decide what gets installed, and you get all necessary approvals for that. Let’s say the plan was for $400 in cost to buy 2 benches, but the new plan costs $1500. How do you adapt your fund raising? Maybe go see the VFW leadership and the City beautification Board. You attend their meetings and get their approvals. And, you still have not put a shovel in the ground.

With the money you buy the benches and other materials. You have them delivered to a good location. You thought your home first, but can you get them to City Hall later? Can you use the Troop trailer? How do you get permission to do that? How do you get kids and adults to turn up at City Hall on the day and time? What do you fo if it rains? Will you provide lunch? Drinks? Did you budget for that? What about first aid coverage? Do you have the right tools and supplies? Have you ever used cement in a hole before? Did you practice? Can you explain the process to other scouts at the site? What other work is to be done - are you making garden beds too? What plantings have you planned and why those? How did you adapt the project when your team started digging and found that the current flag pole cement pad was laid over a cement sidewalk in one area that was just covered with 6inches of dirt and sod.

Afterwards, including clean up and meetings with City government folks to ensure they are satisfied, you do your final write up. It gets read and approved by you, the person at the City who oversaw the project, and your troop Eagle project coordinator. That report is then sent to be reviewed and approved by BSA.

Ta-dah Now you know a neighbor’s kid who just stuck a couple benches and some flowers by a flag pole to get her Eagle.

——/

My kids have “Eagle Scout” on their resume currently in the Personal Interest part. It reads: Camping and hiking. (Eagle Scout).

The stuff they learned can be learned elsewhere of course. But, they learned it in Scouts. A couple years ago my youngest was working nights at an ice packing plant. 2 guys bagging ice and loading trucks to go out in the morning. His co-worker got his hand caught in a gear breaking 3 fingers. My kid used his first aid knowledge to stabilize the hand and arm, and control the bleeding. He shut down the plant and drove his co-worker to the ER. Didn’t panic.

Used stuff he learned in Scouts. And - both have been asked in interviews to prove they are Eagle Scouts. They carry a card in their wallet. They guys who asked then showed them their cards.

I read college applications for a large public university. This is all well and good, but if the student doesn't explain more about the process in the application, it can still read like a "kid who just stuck a couple benches and some flowers by a flag pole to get her Eagle."

I am appalled that an Admission's office wouldn't know the time commitment and dedication it takes to earn Eagle Scout. I'm a woman with no scouts, no boy scouts and even I knew how hard it was to persevere for Eagle Scout just based on info from when I was growing up.

It's pretty disturbing any admission's officer would not know about Eagle Scouts.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Can any state level policy maker explain why our states aren’t fighting over kids who want to major in computer science and got a 700+ on the math SAT? Aren’t these kids going to be the major innovators of the future? Generate enormous increases in quality of life for Americans and humanity at large? And generate large tax bills too? State policy makers should be bending over backwards to have vibrant and well-funded CS programs and fill them with as many kids as they can who can do the work.

They are certainly going to be a part of our future. As to what the future skills tech needs, we don’t know necessarily what those are right now. Maybe what is being taught in CS. Maybe something emerging from physics or math or neuroscience.

These kids aren’t valuable just because they are majoring in computer science. They are valuable because their intelligence and motivation will lead them to do, on average, great things over the course of their lifetime. These are the kids who will start companies, apply for patents, and be able to think rigorously and quantitatively about society’s problems. The same goes for a kid scoring 750 on the verbal section. I guess I just wonder why states aren’t fighting for these kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Can any state level policy maker explain why our states aren’t fighting over kids who want to major in computer science and got a 700+ on the math SAT? Aren’t these kids going to be the major innovators of the future? Generate enormous increases in quality of life for Americans and humanity at large? And generate large tax bills too? State policy makers should be bending over backwards to have vibrant and well-funded CS programs and fill them with as many kids as they can who can do the work.

They are certainly going to be a part of our future. As to what the future skills tech needs, we don’t know necessarily what those are right now. Maybe what is being taught in CS. Maybe something emerging from physics or math or neuroscience.

These kids aren’t valuable just because they are majoring in computer science. They are valuable because their intelligence and motivation will lead them to do, on average, great things over the course of their lifetime. These are the kids who will start companies, apply for patents, and be able to think rigorously and quantitatively about society’s problems. The same goes for a kid scoring 750 on the verbal section. I guess I just wonder why states aren’t fighting for these kids.

Why fight for them when you have more applicants than spaces for them, and they are ALL at least as good as that? It's not a rare thing at this point, even if it was at some time.