Foreign Service Officers snooty?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just started a job at State. I really want to like the FS officers I meet, but they seem so full of themselves! Superficial even. Is it just the ones who got stuck in DC?

Snooty people are perceived as snooty, when really they just don't care if you like them or not.

NP here, but IMO people can tell the difference between self-confident and arrogant. The former is pleasant to be around because they’re curious and interested in other people’s lives. The latter is tiresome because they’re not interested in seeing beyond themselves and their lives . Many, not all, FSOs I know are the latter. It’s a curious pattern that I hadn’t really noticed before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a neighbor who’s FS. She acts like nobody but her has any right to an opinion about international politics. I don’t even find her that well informed, pretty parochial actually. My guess is that the job isn’t actually that exciting under the surface. Hard to make a difference there, so they console themselves by feeling worldly.

By definition, they ARE worldly. What a strange criticism.

Disagree. They work in foreign policy and live outside the US. But they do that in a bubble. I think it’s faux worldliness. As a taxpayer and American who lives overseas sometimes, I think their lack of worldliness, lack of curiosity and their arrogance overseas to be disappointing and doing more harm than good. The Ugly American lives on. So disappointing. They’re also way too arrogant and focused on status to hear this critique.

+1. Living in embassy housing with security and support infrastructure doing everything for you definitely doesn’t make you worldly. I would actually consider most FSOs I know sheltered and out of touch.

I agree with this. Especially those that live in poorer countries and have a full staff of live-in help at home. As someone said to me, “It takes about a week to get used to, and the rest of your life to get over.” I also have seen that, despite home leave, they get oddly out of touch with the US. It’s like they expect the US to be frozen in time from whenever they first left for their first assignment.

I think the snobbery also is a remainder of the days when most FSOs came from the Ivy League (like the CIA). They say that the KGB used to get the Ivy League yearbooks, because they could help identify CIA officers.

[Anonymous]

DS is the worst, followed by IMOs. They know how to do EVERYONE’S job, just ask them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They’re generally pampered and live an expat life, which is a lot like being the colonizer in colonialism. Foreign officials kiss their butts overseas, so they start to believe their opinions are actually worth more. They also live in fear of the “up or out” rule. It’s brutal really. Some folks love it but the life isn’t for those who are deep thinkers and crave authenticity.

Oh, absolutely. Such a good answer. As someone who has come into contact with them quite frequently outside the US, I find them almost universally arrogant. Very few exceptions to this.

They know the answer to everything and just try shutting them up !

[Anonymous]

In the FS world for 20 years. Many are full of themselves and - in my opinion - it's not "warranted" A surprising number are very parochial.

A good number are also not arrogant, and really deserve the more positive elements of the stereotypes.

It makes sense the groups would be insular when in the US; the lifestyle and adjustments are really different and isolating. I know I expect the US to be the same when I go back -- at some level -- and of course it's not.

You deal with much less of the foreign culture (or CAN deal with much less) when you are with State vs. other overseas occupations.

You def get used to the "help."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m at State and definitely stereotype based on FSO job. The obnoxious ones usually come from certain cones.

Interesting. Could you elaborate on what the different cones wrt to your comment about some being more obnoxious than others?

The stereotype is political coned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In the FS world for 20 years. Many are full of themselves and - in my opinion - it's not "warranted" A surprising number are very parochial.

A good number are also not arrogant, and really deserve the more positive elements of the stereotypes.

It makes sense the groups would be insular when in the US; the lifestyle and adjustments are really different and isolating. I know I expect the US to be the same when I go back -- at some level -- and of course it's not.

You deal with much less of the foreign culture (or CAN deal with much less) when you are with State vs. other overseas occupations.

You def get used to the "help."

The corollary is that people expect FS people to be the same when they return from overseas and don't want to hear about the last X years of your life because they don't get, won't get, or don't think time counts outside the US. It can be hard to relay details of your life if time overseas is off-limits. That also probably contributes to the insular environment you mention.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a neighbor who’s FS. She acts like nobody but her has any right to an opinion about international politics. I don’t even find her that well informed, pretty parochial actually. My guess is that the job isn’t actually that exciting under the surface. Hard to make a difference there, so they console themselves by feeling worldly.

By definition, they ARE worldly. What a strange criticism.

Disagree. They work in foreign policy and live outside the US. But they do that in a bubble. I think it’s faux worldliness. As a taxpayer and American who lives overseas sometimes, I think their lack of worldliness, lack of curiosity and their arrogance overseas to be disappointing and doing more harm than good. The Ugly American lives on. So disappointing. They’re also way too arrogant and focused on status to hear this critique.

+1 I work for a USAID implementer in food security, and so I'm often spending months and sometimes a year setting up programs in some of the most difficult environments in the world. The FSOs live in a tiny bubble, rarely speak to locals who aren't employed by or through the Embassy, and are paranoid AF that everyone they meet is a spy, even fellow Americans. It seems like a lonely life, and not one that would actually make one worldly in the way that we use the word in English.

You take the fact that the multi-stage test and interview screens for a very specific personality type, and add the fact that they all go through the same training, and you get a pretty homogenous type of individual. Add the insularity of FSO life since 9/11 (Embassies moved to the outer regions of the capital cities, FSOs living in compounds even in countries where other internationals live in normal housing) and you have a recipe for weird snobbery.

[Anonymous]

I work at State (in L — thanks lawyer hater!). I actually think it’s hard to be an FSO in Washington, because in many gigs you’re surrounded by civil service folks who have been in their position for 10 years, so both know way more than you but are often also resentful you’re there/uninterested in helping you learn. Most FSOs hate their Washington tours until they move up the chain enough to be like a DAS level and so they’re really just trying to impress the “right” people for their next gig so they can move on through. That can definitely make them unpleasant to deal with if you’re not one of those people. On the flip side, FSOs are typically more flexible/open to input than civil service folks and is a bit smarter on average.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work at State (in L — thanks lawyer hater!). I actually think it’s hard to be an FSO in Washington, because in many gigs you’re surrounded by civil service folks who have been in their position for 10 years, so both know way more than you but are often also resentful you’re there/uninterested in helping you learn. Most FSOs hate their Washington tours until they move up the chain enough to be like a DAS level and so they’re really just trying to impress the “right” people for their next gig so they can move on through. That can definitely make them unpleasant to deal with if you’re not one of those people. On the flip side, FSOs are typically more flexible/open to input than civil service folks and is a bit smarter on average.

I actually find the FSOs to be extremely risk averse and not open to input. They treat every person as if they’re going to be their COM down the road and will never speak truth to power. They’re agreeable and willing to work as much as it will help their EERs, but will never initiate the real change for the Department. They don’t like being in Washington because it’s a big pay cut. They actually have to pay for housing.

Sadly, I have to interact with the worst of the FSOs as part of my job, and the bad ones are bad in a shocking way. Not sure that it’s different than any other large organization, but that undoubtedly colors my view.

[Anonymous]

Don’t know if they’re snooty, but they do all sleep with each other, marriages be damned. It’s like Melrose Place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work at State (in L — thanks lawyer hater!). I actually think it’s hard to be an FSO in Washington, because in many gigs you’re surrounded by civil service folks who have been in their position for 10 years, so both know way more than you but are often also resentful you’re there/uninterested in helping you learn. Most FSOs hate their Washington tours until they move up the chain enough to be like a DAS level and so they’re really just trying to impress the “right” people for their next gig so they can move on through. That can definitely make them unpleasant to deal with if you’re not one of those people. On the flip side, FSOs are typically more flexible/open to input than civil service folks and is a bit smarter on average.

I actually find the FSOs to be extremely risk averse and not open to input. They treat every person as if they’re going to be their COM down the road and will never speak truth to power. They’re agreeable and willing to work as much as it will help their EERs, but will never initiate the real change for the Department. They don’t like being in Washington because it’s a big pay cut. They actually have to pay for housing.

Sadly, I have to interact with the worst of the FSOs as part of my job, and the bad ones are bad in a shocking way. Not sure that it’s different than any other large organization, but that undoubtedly colors my view.

Perhaps risk averse = inclined to listen to L!

[Anonymous]

The father of one of my son's friends is one, and I find him insufferable. He never talks about anything but himself, and never asks me a single thing about myself. If my son didn't like his, I would never, ever interact with such a person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The father of one of my son's friends is one, and I find him insufferable. He never talks about anything but himself, and never asks me a single thing about myself. If my son didn't like his, I would never, ever interact with such a person.

Bingo! I can be around my FSO acquaintances and they never ever ever ask anything about others. One of them I call a friend, but even that relationship is pretty transactional. Maybe they just don’t have friendships due to the nature of the job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t know if they’re snooty, but they do all sleep with each other, marriages be damned. It’s like Melrose Place.

I am not an FSO but I do want that notch on my belt. Mmmm, I like older white men.