The Bible is an immoral book

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Context matters, I'm sure. Do you know much about the bible? A list of random quotes doesn't tell anyone much, one way or the other.

Also, about that bee in your bonnet. Some threads, like this one are inviting conversation on a topic to explore various sides of it. The thread that appears to have triggered you was the equivalent of someone saying "Happy Birthday" and you arguing about whether or not it was really happy, and why should it be, and how do we even know you were really born on this day no matter what the birth certificate says, and so on. Some things aren't asking for discussion and debate, like common holiday exclamations and traditional phrases like "happy birthday," "allelujah, he is risen," "merry christmas," "mazel tov," etc. They aren't arguments.

I suspect OP is reacting to the many times when Christians told non-believers not to participate their discussions. OP clearly stated "this thread is for people who believe the bible to be an immoral book." Yet it seems CHristians feel a need to defend their book, knowing their opinion is not wanted.

How does it feel to have your point of view discounted in a public discussion group?

Where are the Christians defending their book?

Most, not all, of the quotes are from the Old Testament. Which means your audience is Jews as well as Christians, who think the New Testament supersedes the Old.

But I suspect most people think a bunch of quotes taken out of context do not prove it’s an immoral book. So they don’t think this thread applies to them and, as you requested, they’re ignoring you.

Yet Christians quote the OT whenever it suits them and don't address how Jesus's Dad -- the God of the old testament - can be discounted. I mean, he's the father in the holy trinity.

You are creating a straw man by say "Christians" say or do this or that. Its a very broad group of people with a pretty wide variety of views on how to view the biblical texts. So your complaints actually don't make sense to a lot of people who understand this and make you sound like you are an average 5th grader arguing in a PhD astrophysics class about something you read about in the kid's edition of National Geographic. I think these debates are great, but you are starting from a point of view that just doesn't exist (i.e., that all Christian's believe this or that and never debate or question anything.)

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi so I’m a Christian and here is my response. So you have to remember that in much of Israel’s history they were a theocracy, meaning God was their leader instead of an human ruler like a king. So anything that was offensive to God could be punished. That is why you have verses like “don’t allow a sorceress to live” because witchcraft is directly offensive to God. Since he’s in charge, it is justified for Him to punish things that offend him.

And the big other thing you mentioned was various verses about God’s commandment to wipe out or drive out various people groups. Now on the surface it seems like God takes sides. I’d recommend you read about the post-Flood Nephilim, they really explain why there was so much killing and violence toward other nations.

So you don't disagree those things are immoral, then? Good, thanks for being honest. It is genuinely appreciated.

Different poster (although you said you don’t want either of us here). The quote is from the Old Testament. PP is a bible literalist, and they’re in the minority. Most Christians believe, as Jesus told us, that the New Testament supplants the Old, that violence is always wrong, that we should turn the other cheek, etc.

Why would Christians believe that when Jesus said the opposite?:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John 7:19)

The passage from Matthew, above, is the law according to Jesus.

Can you cite that for us please?

It’s already at 7:02. Ignoring all responses is exactly the bad faith on your part that stops people from engaging with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi so I’m a Christian and here is my response. So you have to remember that in much of Israel’s history they were a theocracy, meaning God was their leader instead of an human ruler like a king. So anything that was offensive to God could be punished. That is why you have verses like “don’t allow a sorceress to live” because witchcraft is directly offensive to God. Since he’s in charge, it is justified for Him to punish things that offend him.

And the big other thing you mentioned was various verses about God’s commandment to wipe out or drive out various people groups. Now on the surface it seems like God takes sides. I’d recommend you read about the post-Flood Nephilim, they really explain why there was so much killing and violence toward other nations.

So you don't disagree those things are immoral, then? Good, thanks for being honest. It is genuinely appreciated.

Different poster (although you said you don’t want either of us here). The quote is from the Old Testament. PP is a bible literalist, and they’re in the minority. Most Christians believe, as Jesus told us, that the New Testament supplants the Old, that violence is always wrong, that we should turn the other cheek, etc.

Why would Christians believe that when Jesus said the opposite?:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John 7:19)

The passage from Matthew, above, is the law according to Jesus.

Can you cite that for us please?

It’s already at 7:02. Ignoring all responses is exactly the bad faith on your part that stops people from engaging with you.

Please accept the possibility that I simply don't understand how the 7:02 post cites a misinterpretation of the Matthew quote and explain it to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi so I’m a Christian and here is my response. So you have to remember that in much of Israel’s history they were a theocracy, meaning God was their leader instead of an human ruler like a king. So anything that was offensive to God could be punished. That is why you have verses like “don’t allow a sorceress to live” because witchcraft is directly offensive to God. Since he’s in charge, it is justified for Him to punish things that offend him.

And the big other thing you mentioned was various verses about God’s commandment to wipe out or drive out various people groups. Now on the surface it seems like God takes sides. I’d recommend you read about the post-Flood Nephilim, they really explain why there was so much killing and violence toward other nations.

So you don't disagree those things are immoral, then? Good, thanks for being honest. It is genuinely appreciated.

Different poster (although you said you don’t want either of us here). The quote is from the Old Testament. PP is a bible literalist, and they’re in the minority. Most Christians believe, as Jesus told us, that the New Testament supplants the Old, that violence is always wrong, that we should turn the other cheek, etc.

Why would Christians believe that when Jesus said the opposite?:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John 7:19)

The passage from Matthew, above, is the law according to Jesus.

Can you cite that for us please?

It’s already at 7:02. Ignoring all responses is exactly the bad faith on your part that stops people from engaging with you.

It’s obvious on its face of you read carefully—or if you read it at all, which apparently you haven’t. Nobody is going to let you troll them like this.

Please accept the possibility that I simply don't understand how the 7:02 post cites a misinterpretation of the Matthew quote and explain it to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi so I’m a Christian and here is my response. So you have to remember that in much of Israel’s history they were a theocracy, meaning God was their leader instead of an human ruler like a king. So anything that was offensive to God could be punished. That is why you have verses like “don’t allow a sorceress to live” because witchcraft is directly offensive to God. Since he’s in charge, it is justified for Him to punish things that offend him.

And the big other thing you mentioned was various verses about God’s commandment to wipe out or drive out various people groups. Now on the surface it seems like God takes sides. I’d recommend you read about the post-Flood Nephilim, they really explain why there was so much killing and violence toward other nations.

So you don't disagree those things are immoral, then? Good, thanks for being honest. It is genuinely appreciated.

Different poster (although you said you don’t want either of us here). The quote is from the Old Testament. PP is a bible literalist, and they’re in the minority. Most Christians believe, as Jesus told us, that the New Testament supplants the Old, that violence is always wrong, that we should turn the other cheek, etc.

Why would Christians believe that when Jesus said the opposite?:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John 7:19)

The passage from Matthew, above, is the law according to Jesus.

Can you cite that for us please?

It’s already at 7:02. Ignoring all responses is exactly the bad faith on your part that stops people from engaging with you.

It’s obvious on its face of you read carefully—or if you read it at all, which apparently you haven’t. Nobody is going to let you troll them like this.

Please accept the possibility that I simply don't understand how the 7:02 post cites a misinterpretation of the Matthew quote and explain it to me.

I’m out of here. OP is a ridiculous troll and never intended to discuss anything in good faith. Nobody has time for this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi so I’m a Christian and here is my response. So you have to remember that in much of Israel’s history they were a theocracy, meaning God was their leader instead of an human ruler like a king. So anything that was offensive to God could be punished. That is why you have verses like “don’t allow a sorceress to live” because witchcraft is directly offensive to God. Since he’s in charge, it is justified for Him to punish things that offend him.

And the big other thing you mentioned was various verses about God’s commandment to wipe out or drive out various people groups. Now on the surface it seems like God takes sides. I’d recommend you read about the post-Flood Nephilim, they really explain why there was so much killing and violence toward other nations.

So you don't disagree those things are immoral, then? Good, thanks for being honest. It is genuinely appreciated.

Different poster (although you said you don’t want either of us here). The quote is from the Old Testament. PP is a bible literalist, and they’re in the minority. Most Christians believe, as Jesus told us, that the New Testament supplants the Old, that violence is always wrong, that we should turn the other cheek, etc.

Why would Christians believe that when Jesus said the opposite?:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John 7:19)

The passage from Matthew, above, is the law according to Jesus.

Can you cite that for us please?

It’s already at 7:02. Ignoring all responses is exactly the bad faith on your part that stops people from engaging with you.

Please accept the possibility that I simply don't understand how the 7:02 post cites a misinterpretation of the Matthew quote and explain it to me.

It’s obvious on its face of you read carefully—or if you read it at all, which apparently you haven’t. Nobody is going to let you troll them like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Context matters, I'm sure. Do you know much about the bible? A list of random quotes doesn't tell anyone much, one way or the other.

Also, about that bee in your bonnet. Some threads, like this one are inviting conversation on a topic to explore various sides of it. The thread that appears to have triggered you was the equivalent of someone saying "Happy Birthday" and you arguing about whether or not it was really happy, and why should it be, and how do we even know you were really born on this day no matter what the birth certificate says, and so on. Some things aren't asking for discussion and debate, like common holiday exclamations and traditional phrases like "happy birthday," "allelujah, he is risen," "merry christmas," "mazel tov," etc. They aren't arguments.

I suspect OP is reacting to the many times when Christians told non-believers not to participate their discussions. OP clearly stated "this thread is for people who believe the bible to be an immoral book." Yet it seems CHristians feel a need to defend their book, knowing their opinion is not wanted.

How does it feel to have your point of view discounted in a public discussion group?

Where are the Christians defending their book?

Most, not all, of the quotes are from the Old Testament. Which means your audience is Jews as well as Christians, who think the New Testament supersedes the Old.

But I suspect most people think a bunch of quotes taken out of context do not prove it’s an immoral book. So they don’t think this thread applies to them and, as you requested, they’re ignoring you.

Yet Christians quote the OT whenever it suits them and don't address how Jesus's Dad -- the God of the old testament - can be discounted. I mean, he's the father in the holy trinity.

You are creating a straw man by say "Christians" say or do this or that. Its a very broad group of people with a pretty wide variety of views on how to view the biblical texts. So your complaints actually don't make sense to a lot of people who understand this and make you sound like you are an average 5th grader arguing in a PhD astrophysics class about something you read about in the kid's edition of National Geographic. I think these debates are great, but you are starting from a point of view that just doesn't exist (i.e., that all Christian's believe this or that and never debate or question anything.)

+100

So how do you know who's right, espeially on the big questions. There's another thread in which a seminary president doesn't support the resurrection. Is she right?

[Anonymous]

Please, Christians and Jews and everybody else, don’t engage with this troll.

In just three pages she’s shown she’s bigoted and unwilling to engage in even the most basic dialogue. Also, her op says she doesn’t want you anyway.

[Anonymous]

Don’t feed the troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi so I’m a Christian and here is my response. So you have to remember that in much of Israel’s history they were a theocracy, meaning God was their leader instead of an human ruler like a king. So anything that was offensive to God could be punished. That is why you have verses like “don’t allow a sorceress to live” because witchcraft is directly offensive to God. Since he’s in charge, it is justified for Him to punish things that offend him.

And the big other thing you mentioned was various verses about God’s commandment to wipe out or drive out various people groups. Now on the surface it seems like God takes sides. I’d recommend you read about the post-Flood Nephilim, they really explain why there was so much killing and violence toward other nations.

So you don't disagree those things are immoral, then? Good, thanks for being honest. It is genuinely appreciated.

Different poster (although you said you don’t want either of us here). The quote is from the Old Testament. PP is a bible literalist, and they’re in the minority. Most Christians believe, as Jesus told us, that the New Testament supplants the Old, that violence is always wrong, that we should turn the other cheek, etc.

Why would Christians believe that when Jesus said the opposite?:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John 7:19)

The passage from Matthew, above, is the law according to Jesus.

Can you cite that for us please?

It’s already at 7:02. Ignoring all responses is exactly the bad faith on your part that stops people from engaging with you.

Please accept the possibility that I simply don't understand how the 7:02 post cites a misinterpretation of the Matthew quote and explain it to me.

It’s obvious on its face of you read carefully—or if you read it at all, which apparently you haven’t. Nobody is going to let you troll them like this.

DP - 7:02 is a list of quotes from Matthew. Some Christians think citing chapter and verse of the Bible is sufficient explanation, with no need to explain their relevance. It could also mean that they don't really understand themselves, so fall back on the "authority" of the Bible to avoid further discussion

[Anonymous]

I adore the Old Testament as history and literature. It's all right there: the greatest story ever told, and certainly a foundational text of western civilization. And, yes, it contains descriptions of actions that one may deem "immoral," but the book isn't immoral.

[Anonymous]

Could the Jews here discuss these?


“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi so I’m a Christian and here is my response. So you have to remember that in much of Israel’s history they were a theocracy, meaning God was their leader instead of an human ruler like a king. So anything that was offensive to God could be punished. That is why you have verses like “don’t allow a sorceress to live” because witchcraft is directly offensive to God. Since he’s in charge, it is justified for Him to punish things that offend him.

And the big other thing you mentioned was various verses about God’s commandment to wipe out or drive out various people groups. Now on the surface it seems like God takes sides. I’d recommend you read about the post-Flood Nephilim, they really explain why there was so much killing and violence toward other nations.

So you don't disagree those things are immoral, then? Good, thanks for being honest. It is genuinely appreciated.

Different poster (although you said you don’t want either of us here). The quote is from the Old Testament. PP is a bible literalist, and they’re in the minority. Most Christians believe, as Jesus told us, that the New Testament supplants the Old, that violence is always wrong, that we should turn the other cheek, etc.

Why would Christians believe that when Jesus said the opposite?:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John 7:19)

The passage from Matthew, above, is the law according to Jesus.

Can you cite that for us please?

It’s already at 7:02. Ignoring all responses is exactly the bad faith on your part that stops people from engaging with you.

Please accept the possibility that I simply don't understand how the 7:02 post cites a misinterpretation of the Matthew quote and explain it to me.

It’s obvious on its face of you read carefully—or if you read it at all, which apparently you haven’t. Nobody is going to let you troll them like this.

DP - 7:02 is a list of quotes from Matthew. Some Christians think citing chapter and verse of the Bible is sufficient explanation, with no need to explain their relevance. It could also mean that they don't really understand themselves, so fall back on the "authority" of the Bible to avoid further discussion

It’s not a “list of quotes,” it’s a single speech. And yes, the point it makes is extremely obvious and needs no explanation—unless you’re deliberately trying to miss the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t feed the troll.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I adore the Old Testament as history and literature. It's all right there: the greatest story ever told, and certainly a foundational text of western civilization. And, yes, it contains descriptions of actions that one may deem "immoral," but the book isn't immoral.

Agreed, it's only immoral if presented as a modern guide to morality. It's a book of stories from antiquity. Some stories have moral guidance (for those times) and/or factual information in them, some don't, like an other story.