Doing a mini-CTCL tour - thoughts on these?

[Anonymous]

Because they want to learn the basics of science in small classes, from actual professors (vs TA's). Because they don't want to have to compete with graduate students for research experiences on campus. Because they want a broadly (vs narrowly) focused education. To come out a well rounded, educated citizen of the world.

[Anonymous]

I dont wasn’t to hijack the thread but I’m the previous poster that asked why Denison is not considered a liberal arts school and I was legitimately interested in hearing the answer as my DC is a Denisonian.

I somewhat expected the answer that was provided and I think both sides have merit. I firmly believe that attending a liberal arts college and learning for the sake of learning is one of the biggest luxuries we can provide our children. And when I looked at the books my DC was buying this year for school I was pretty impressed - my son is going to be educated. When I went to school I had a pragmatic approach and frankly it served me well. But I didn’t have the luxury to learn for the sake of learning. And I took some interesting courses - logic and economics were fun and I enjoyed being exposed to psych and sociology but I was on a mission to get a degree so that I could get a job and start a career. Always seemed so short sided in hindsight.

So I believe in the core mission of the liberal arts. And yet the reality is that the world has gotten smaller, there’s a surfeit of labor, and despite the news reports we are living through very uncertain economic times. So colleges like Denison are trying to straddle both worlds and set the tone that while enjoying the luxury of a liberal arts college experience, young people have a bit of the pragmatism I had, by necessity, all those years ago. Frankly if I hadn’t done ok in life I might not have the mindset I have and my DC would be studying accounting or what I would call a hard major. So I quess see both sides as I remember being slightly turned off at Hobart when their admissions folks had a strong focus on results. It does feel to be a sign of the times and yet I do believe it is messaging that is being embraced by the 2nd and 3rd tier SLACs. And that is not necessarily a knock against them but I think the very top SLACs have the recruiting and networking that can solely focus on academics. But that’s a rarefied list as schools as well regarded as Colgate and W&L are pretty focused on outcomes. They may not have to market it as such given their on campus recruiting and networks but they both have a pre-professional feel. I do see a time when most schooling is online and vocational in nature and a true liberal arts education is reserved for the learned and wealthy. But when that happens we will need a lot less SLACs so it is understandable that during what I see as a period of transition that some schools try to figure out how to best provide value.

And to try and close the circle I do believe the CTCL marketing or branding is effective and that these schools provide a real value. The branding opened my mind that my DC could attend a SLAC even if the grades or the money didn’t allow an ED application to the Amherst’s and the Middlebury’s of the world. Sorry to hijack the thread but I think it’s a topic worth discussing especially for parents considering CTCL schools.

[Anonymous]

Well stated. Thank you for that thoughtful post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the meaning of the size of the endowment for students? I am new to this.

It's how much endowment money there is per student. For instance, Georgetown has an endowment over a billion but around 100,000 per student, whereas Williams also has an endowment over a billion and has a 1,000,000 in endowment per student. Assuming a school spends 5% of their endowment a year Williams is spending 50,000 per student vs. 5,000 a student for Georgetown. It really shows what schools have resources besides tuition money. Here's a helpful link, though it only shows private schools:

https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/EndowmentPerStudent

NP -- an addendum to clarify further. Any 501c3 (which virtually all colleges and universities are) are required to spend a minimu of 5% of their endowment each year on mission related activities. There are no reqirements where that fundong needs to go and it can change each year.

So schools with higher endowments tend to have nicer facilities, updated dorms, support for more off campus experiences -- such as subsidized student research opportunities.

You can find rankings of universities by endowment per student is you want to evaluate that way.

But money isn't everything. DC really liked Beloit and was offered a significant merit scholarship. When we visited, you could see a difference in the campus compared to some of the more well-endowed schools -- less updated dorms, a more dated student union -- but that didn't both them, and the 2 classes they sat in on were led by engaging and thoughtful faculty.

I am glad to read of your positive experience visiting Beloit. My DC graduated (also received a significant merit scholarship making it the same price as in-state tuition in VA) from there not quite 2 years ago and I cannot say enough good things about the academics and close relationships with professors, which in turn led to many outside the classroom opportunities, such as independent research and presentations of same at national conventions (much of which Beloit did subsidize). DC and several of her professors have stayed in touch and they continue to provide encouragement for career and grad school. The classes we attended on parent weekends were full of inquisitive and engaged students and all of DCs friends have gone on to work or continue studying in their fields. When DC was deciding between Beloit and a big research university, she met with Beloit graduates who were pursuing PhD's at the university in the field DC was interested in. They have also stayed in touch and been mentors. And DC's friends who wanted similar experiences from Beloit had/has them.

Yes, Beloit is experiencing some financial issues but they have also taken difficult steps necessary to deal with them. Some of the dorms and other facilities, like the existing student union, are not state of the art, ridiculously posh IMO facilities that you may find at other colleges. But Beloit is building a great new student union/athletic facilities that has received national awards, paid for 100% by donations, and the science center is new and fabulous. If living in older, cinder block dorms and eating in a rather dull looking cafeteria is not your kid's idea of college, look elsewhere. But if your student wants to go to college to be truly engaged in their studies and really know their professors/have their professors really know them, I highly recommend Beloit. I have two other DCs currently in college, one at UVA and the other at a top 20 SLAC, and hands down do I think my DC who attended Beloit had a better, more personal academic experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Check the financial condition of these schools. Many are struggling.

Endowments per student (rounded):

Earlham 367,000,
Lawrence 206,000
Kalamazoo 150,000
Ohio Wesleyan 135,000
Beloit 112,000, credit rating
Knox 106,000
Butler 45,000

With the exception of Butler, these all have decent endowments, & Earlham and Lawrence's are quite good. They offer good tuition discounts, but yes, barely anyone pays full sticker price. If your UMC, that works in your favor. We visited Lawrence & Kalamazoo, and my kid liked both a lot. I would be happy if he went to either.

Another important financial aspect to look at is Moody's credit rating, for instance of these for 2018:

Kalamazoo A1
Earlham Aa3
Lawrence Baa1
Beloit Ba3

Knox and Butler I think are in the low B's but I couldn't quickly locate. Don't know about Ohio Wesleyan. If a college is somewhere in the A1s and 2's I feel okay with their finances regardless if outlook is positive, stable or negative, because dropping down within a class of A is fine and normal as demographics shift (they base some ratings on. demographics/economics of region). So you shouldn't think a "downgrade" is terrible--it's fairly normal in small schools. If they are in the B's I look for them to be on the higher end and try to avoid negative outlook.