Deal is tremendously overcrowded - something is to give

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stop complaining about this.

Everyone knows it is over-enrolled. It has been for a while and probably was when most of you purchased your homes or had your children.

It isn’t going to be addressed - aside from portables - until the next boundary review, which is 5 years away. That’s well before the projection mentioned in the master facilities plan takes effect.

If you don’t like it you can apply to another school via the lottery (how people in the rest of the city respond if they don’t like their IB school), apply to private school or move.

I almost think this topic continues to be posted by someone on a Russian troll farm. It certainly brings out every nasty, divisive instinct of people in this city, and isn’t it funny how no one ever says that their house or ES should be rezobed. It is always someone else.

That part is certainly not true. When we purchased our home even Murch didn't have trailers (besides the ever present Kaufman '"wing").

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure about the assumption that all the kids at feeders will move on to Wilson. At least in my Deal feeder neighborhood, it seems in the past twenty years to be moving from middle/upper middle class to more uniformly affluent. I wonder if more people will have the means to send their kids to private in the next decade or so, which would mean fewer kids move on to Deal/Hardy and Wilson, at least as a proportion of kids at each feeder. It may not completely relieve pressure, but perhaps mitigate some pressure. Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure about the assumption that all the kids at feeders will move on to Wilson. At least in my Deal feeder neighborhood, it seems in the past twenty years to be moving from middle/upper middle class to more uniformly affluent. I wonder if more people will have the means to send their kids to private in the next decade or so, which would mean fewer kids move on to Deal/Hardy and Wilson, at least as a proportion of kids at each feeder. It may not completely relieve pressure, but perhaps mitigate some pressure. Just a thought.

If this was going to happen it would have already started - the enrollment crunch is upon us now which is why Deal now is maxed out on portables despite having already been expanded twice now in just 12 years.

And there are not enough seats at privates to handle the overflow and I have to assume the overcrowding will generate some more demand for those seats and likely higher prices at privates. I'm not aware of any new private middle or upper schools or significant capacity increases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure about the assumption that all the kids at feeders will move on to Wilson. At least in my Deal feeder neighborhood, it seems in the past twenty years to be moving from middle/upper middle class to more uniformly affluent. I wonder if more people will have the means to send their kids to private in the next decade or so, which would mean fewer kids move on to Deal/Hardy and Wilson, at least as a proportion of kids at each feeder. It may not completely relieve pressure, but perhaps mitigate some pressure. Just a thought.

All of the private schools have zoning caps on enrollment. So while the number of students in the area is steadily and significantly increasing, the number of private school seats is the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure about the assumption that all the kids at feeders will move on to Wilson. At least in my Deal feeder neighborhood, it seems in the past twenty years to be moving from middle/upper middle class to more uniformly affluent. I wonder if more people will have the means to send their kids to private in the next decade or so, which would mean fewer kids move on to Deal/Hardy and Wilson, at least as a proportion of kids at each feeder. It may not completely relieve pressure, but perhaps mitigate some pressure. Just a thought.

All of the private schools have zoning caps on enrollment. So while the number of students in the area is steadily and significantly increasing, the number of private school seats is the same.

PP here. I guess you're right; not many new private school seats will be made available. This will likely drive up the cost of private schools in the area, and perhaps lead to some minor expansion at some of them.

The only new private I can think of is the Whittle School, which will provide 2,500 new seats, but I'm not sure who their target market is..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if anyone thinks schools are segregated now, try removing OOB feeder rights and see what happens. Deal could retain some diversity with existing boundaries, but Hardy would become all white

But of course most people on this forum don't care about diversity

This is a serious question - what about diversity EOTP where there currently is very little. Or I should say where currently very few white students are attending their neighborhood schools.

Folks do realize that most of the so called gentrifiers are not sending their kids to their neighborhood public schools, in part because of charters and in part because of the release valve of Deal and Wilson? And if you got rid of those options you'd actually have diverse public schools EOTP?

Hi, welcome to DCUM. I'm sorry, but although you may feel your question is serious, you have clearly not seriously considered it.

Yep - they obviously don't have kids of their own, or they'd realize that without charters and the "release valve" of Deal and Wilson, those of us EOTP would take our high incomes (but not high enough for 2+ kids @$44k/year private) to the suburbs.

I'm not real sure you can call Deal and Wilson a "release valve" for families EOTP. These kids are all coming from the feeder neighborhoods. If you actually walk around Deal now compared to even 3 or 4 years ago the diversity is almost gone, and the same thing is starting to happen at Wilson. Sorry to say everyone, this fantasy of shipping a bunch of WOTP kids to these underutilized schools is just that - a fantasy. It makes no logistical sense, and I can tell you no matter how progressive a resident of Chevy Chase or AU Park claims to be, the minute you start making their kid part of a social engineering experiment they will go CRAZY. That's why these discussions are all just a bunch of nonsense. NOTHING is going to change, there is no political will for it. And, BTW - I don't generally see a lot of Maryland plates on cars at Deal drop off or other events, but if I do I'll get my private investigator on it STAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if anyone thinks schools are segregated now, try removing OOB feeder rights and see what happens. Deal could retain some diversity with existing boundaries, but Hardy would become all white

But of course most people on this forum don't care about diversity

This is a serious question - what about diversity EOTP where there currently is very little. Or I should say where currently very few white students are attending their neighborhood schools.

Folks do realize that most of the so called gentrifiers are not sending their kids to their neighborhood public schools, in part because of charters and in part because of the release valve of Deal and Wilson? And if you got rid of those options you'd actually have diverse public schools EOTP?

Hi, welcome to DCUM. I'm sorry, but although you may feel your question is serious, you have clearly not seriously considered it.

Yep - they obviously don't have kids of their own, or they'd realize that without charters and the "release valve" of Deal and Wilson, those of us EOTP would take our high incomes (but not high enough for 2+ kids @$44k/year private) to the suburbs.

I'm not real sure you can call Deal and Wilson a "release valve" for families EOTP. These kids are all coming from the feeder neighborhoods. If you actually walk around Deal now compared to even 3 or 4 years ago the diversity is almost gone, and the same thing is starting to happen at Wilson. Sorry to say everyone, this fantasy of shipping a bunch of WOTP kids to these underutilized schools is just that - a fantasy. It makes no logistical sense, and I can tell you no matter how progressive a resident of Chevy Chase or AU Park claims to be, the minute you start making their kid part of a social engineering experiment they will go CRAZY. That's why these discussions are all just a bunch of nonsense. NOTHING is going to change, there is no political will for it. And, BTW - I don't generally see a lot of Maryland plates on cars at Deal drop off or other events, but if I do I'll get my private investigator on it STAT.

I came up with release valve and that was not the right term. Bail out option is more like it.

Deal is still very diverse.

And the argument is not to ship WOTP kids EOTP (though that might be necessary to get the required balance and there are some WOTP neighborhoods for which that would not really be such a big deal logistically) but the idea is to stop shipping middle class EOTP kids WOTP to jam packed Wilson & Deal. There are plenty of middle and upper middle class families in Crestwood, Shepherd Park, N Portal Estates, Mt Pleasant, Columbia Heights so you just need to in mass bundle this kids into the same MS & HS.

And by doing so Wilson/Deal can remain diverse by accepting need based kids into the schools.

There is this funny dynamic where EOTP people of color think their enemy when it comes to continued access to Deal/Wilson is wealthy whites living WOTP. But the real cause of overcrowding and the obstacle to improved schools EOTP are white middle class families crossing the park every day for school rather than staying in their own neighborhoods for school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if anyone thinks schools are segregated now, try removing OOB feeder rights and see what happens. Deal could retain some diversity with existing boundaries, but Hardy would become all white

But of course most people on this forum don't care about diversity

This is a serious question - what about diversity EOTP where there currently is very little. Or I should say where currently very few white students are attending their neighborhood schools.

Folks do realize that most of the so called gentrifiers are not sending their kids to their neighborhood public schools, in part because of charters and in part because of the release valve of Deal and Wilson? And if you got rid of those options you'd actually have diverse public schools EOTP?

Hi, welcome to DCUM. I'm sorry, but although you may feel your question is serious, you have clearly not seriously considered it.

Yep - they obviously don't have kids of their own, or they'd realize that without charters and the "release valve" of Deal and Wilson, those of us EOTP would take our high incomes (but not high enough for 2+ kids @$44k/year private) to the suburbs.

I'm not real sure you can call Deal and Wilson a "release valve" for families EOTP. These kids are all coming from the feeder neighborhoods. If you actually walk around Deal now compared to even 3 or 4 years ago the diversity is almost gone, and the same thing is starting to happen at Wilson. Sorry to say everyone, this fantasy of shipping a bunch of WOTP kids to these underutilized schools is just that - a fantasy. It makes no logistical sense, and I can tell you no matter how progressive a resident of Chevy Chase or AU Park claims to be, the minute you start making their kid part of a social engineering experiment they will go CRAZY. That's why these discussions are all just a bunch of nonsense. NOTHING is going to change, there is no political will for it. And, BTW - I don't generally see a lot of Maryland plates on cars at Deal drop off or other events, but if I do I'll get my private investigator on it STAT.

I came up with release valve and that was not the right term. Bail out option is more like it.

Deal is still very diverse.

And the argument is not to ship WOTP kids EOTP (though that might be necessary to get the required balance and there are some WOTP neighborhoods for which that would not really be such a big deal logistically) but the idea is to stop shipping middle class EOTP kids WOTP to jam packed Wilson & Deal. There are plenty of middle and upper middle class families in Crestwood, Shepherd Park, N Portal Estates, Mt Pleasant, Columbia Heights so you just need to in mass bundle this kids into the same MS & HS.

And by doing so Wilson/Deal can remain diverse by accepting need based kids into the schools.

There is this funny dynamic where EOTP people of color think their enemy when it comes to continued access to Deal/Wilson is wealthy whites living WOTP. But the real cause of overcrowding and the obstacle to improved schools EOTP are white middle class families crossing the park every day for school rather than staying in their own neighborhoods for school.

Yes, your solution to cut out Bancroft and Shepherd will cut out 70-80 kids. That will make you happy with current and projected size?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:if anyone thinks schools are segregated now, try removing OOB feeder rights and see what happens. Deal could retain some diversity with existing boundaries, but Hardy would become all white

But of course most people on this forum don't care about diversity

Diversity is more than skin-deep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does the fire department say?

The fire department says you can fit more bodies in a room than is educationally useful (think about auditoriums). Their main concern is how many exits do you have.

Wilson has at least two exits: Yale or jail. There may be a few. more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:End the oob feeder rights for starters.
It only happened 10 years ago, with Michelle Rhee.
Before that, everyone oob from feeder elementaries had to enter the lottery. Melissa Kim, the Deal principal in those days, believed in kids moving up with their classmates but she kept control of the numbers.
Michelle Rhee changed all that in one moment.

I wouldn’t end OOB feeder rights outright. Instead DCPS should condition the OOB ability to progress on to Deal and Wilson based on grades, test scores and a satisfactory conduct record. It’s a way of saying that DC has invested in certain kids by giving them a sought-after place in a Deal feeder. So then the student has to show that the investment has been worthwhile before DCPS doubles down on that investment. Take some of the spots held by the kids who are weeded out and give other OOB kids the chance at Deal, those who have demonstrated by their records that they will work hard and follow the rules.

Why do you assume that OOB students don't have good grades, test scores, good conduct?

DCPS is a public school system, not a private school. DCPS already has rules that if you are excessively truant or have excessive absences you can lose your OOB privileges. That is more than enough conditions.

The attendance conditions were removed this year.

"Alice Deal for all!"

[Anonymous]

There are many students at Deal that were once IB at deal or feeder but have left and didn’t get in via OOB. I imagine about 10%. Start there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:End the oob feeder rights for starters.
It only happened 10 years ago, with Michelle Rhee.
Before that, everyone oob from feeder elementaries had to enter the lottery. Melissa Kim, the Deal principal in those days, believed in kids moving up with their classmates but she kept control of the numbers.
Michelle Rhee changed all that in one moment.

I wouldn’t end OOB feeder rights outright. Instead DCPS should condition the OOB ability to progress on to Deal and Wilson based on grades, test scores and a satisfactory conduct record. It’s a way of saying that DC has invested in certain kids by giving them a sought-after place in a Deal feeder. So then the student has to show that the investment has been worthwhile before DCPS doubles down on that investment. Take some of the spots held by the kids who are weeded out and give other OOB kids the chance at Deal, those who have demonstrated by their records that they will work hard and follow the rules.

Why do you assume that OOB students don't have good grades, test scores, good conduct?

DCPS is a public school system, not a private school. DCPS already has rules that if you are excessively truant or have excessive absences you can lose your OOB privileges. That is more than enough conditions.

Many, if not the majority of OOB students are working at grade level and have a good conduct record. But for those who are not doing the work or acting out, why do they deserve a full path to Wilson through a guaranteed feeder that is not reviewed? OOB spots are a scarce resource, and if certain kids aren't taking advantage of the opportunity, then give the opportunity to a more deserving student.

DC's law is written so that schools have to take all students who live within the school boundary area. However, OOB enrollment is discretionary and it is only fair to add conditions to it, in order to be able to advance to the next school. Give the chance to those who will use it to the fullest. Otherwise just end feeder rights.

[Anonymous]

Just like shipping WOTP kids to a half-empty school EOTP is a non-starter, so is excluding Bancroft (majority Hispanic) and Shepherd (majority AA) from their historic feeder pattern. One solution from another thread was to pull Ward 4 schools -- Lafayette and Shepherd -- into another middle school together as a compromise where families both east and west of the park feel the "pain" of a new feeder system. A solution like that where no "side" wins is the only thing that's politically viable. The people who bitch about EOTP hipsters or middle-class black families using YOUR schools are sadly bitter and obviously new to how DC works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just like shipping WOTP kids to a half-empty school EOTP is a non-starter, so is excluding Bancroft (majority Hispanic) and Shepherd (majority AA) from their historic feeder pattern. One solution from another thread was to pull Ward 4 schools -- Lafayette and Shepherd -- into another middle school together as a compromise where families both east and west of the park feel the "pain" of a new feeder system. A solution like that where no "side" wins is the only thing that's politically viable. The people who bitch about EOTP hipsters or middle-class black families using YOUR schools are sadly bitter and obviously new to how DC works.

Again we devolve into stupidity in these discussions.

If you look at the history of the boundaries it is not in fact the full history that these schools have fed to Wilson & Deal.

In fact Wilson used to have boundaries that were essentially proportional to the neighborhood as were the rest of DC schools. And if you aren't aware of this you should educate yourself and this point is to the white and black EOTP parents digging in about this but the EOTP Middle and High Schools used to actually be quite diverse - I can't find the article now but I don't think I'm imagining that Coolidge was majority white until the mid 1960's.

But either way we all lose if this doesn't get solved and the only way to solve it is to move significant numbers of students to a different MS & HS. Unless you think it makes sense for our kids to attend a MS with 2000 kids and a HS with 3000 - and we are going to get there in 3-4 years if something is not done.

WOTP slots for kids from outside of the immediate neighborhood should be going to low income kids from poorly performing schools not to middle class kids who can easily be bundled into a new set of high performing schools EOTP. And that will incidentally maintain WOTP diversity and increase it EOTP - I trust that you understand diversity can also be inclusive of white and middle class families and doesn't just mean a school with some number of minority students?