Q for divorced/separated moms: how did your husband react when you asked for divorce or separation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Um, OP, I think you need to consult an attorney.

Giving you the silent treatment sounds like a toxic environment for you and the kids. Hopefully he will be willing to work out a more productive co-parenting relationship eventually.

OP again. Silent Treatment is kind of his expertise, if you will. He doesn't have any close friends, nor is he close to his parents or siblings. He is a good person at heart, but almost like a parody of Dr. Spock--a bit of a loner and doesn't show any emotion. He didn't used to be this way--has been dealing with major depression for a few years now, until recently when he decided to go off his meds and stop going to therapy. I still love him (or the version of him I used to know) but I can't spend my life caring and covering (Daddy's in bed in the middle of the day on a weekend because he's sick, again, for the 6th consecutive weekend...) for someone who can't or won't care for himself (forget about even trying to meet my emotional needs). Anyway, I guess my sense is that he is emotionally fragile/angry right now, and I'm not sure what consulting an attorney would add to the mix, besides make it even more toxic. I just don't want to go there.

I was in the same situation with my now-ex. He had bipolar, not major depression as you seem to indicate yours does. In your situation, I would recommend --

1) Contacting your husband's pdoc who was treating him for depression. Convey the signs you see -- hypersomnia, withdrawal, irritability, frequent complaints about being ill, gone off meds, refuses therapy -- and tell the pdoc that it is so serious that you have raised the possibility of divorce. Ask the pdoc to follow up with your husband and try to get him to come in. If your husband is NOT seeing a pdoc, he should be. Depression is a serious but treatable illness and many people have to try a number of meds or treatment approaches to find the thing that works. Counseling in the absence of medication is IMO an absolute waste of time. Your husband can't even begin to benefit from therapy if he is not getting treatment. Kind of like asking a diabetic to get nutritional counseling while not offering insulin. If your husband's doc refuses to hear from you that is a BAD sign. All the best practices of care call for physicians managing depression to get input from family members because it is well known that many people with mood disorders are unable to accurately report their moods. A good/sensitive doc can navigate HIPPAA/privacy laws and still get input from you and reach out to your husband.

2) You have to think about/formulate what you want right now and what you want in the long term. If you are at the end of your rope, it is OK to divorce, but you will still be tied to this person, and I can tell you from personal experience, that your divorced life and the lives of your kids will be better if your husband gets treatment. Formulate your plan -- asking him for a separation, to move out or straight to divorce, whatever you need.

3) See an attorney for at least 2 hours. Get that person to go through the elements of a divorce custody and property agreement with you & the major decisions that have to be made.

4) Sit down with your husband. Give him your boundaries that you decided in 2 and follow up as you have stated. (i.e. "I want you to move out by X". Or "I am concerned about you because you still seem depressed and we can't live like this, you have an appointment with the doctor on X day." "If you don't do X I will file for divorce." "I have talked with an attorney and these are the outlines I propose for a settlement. I will have my attorney draw up a proposed settlement agreement based on what we have discussed." Whatever your boundaries are, you have to state them, state the consequences of hubby not respecting them and follow through.)

5) If you still want this to work out (and if you don't, that's ok), then you have to try to calmly send him the message at every opportunity -- you aren't your old self, you don't seem happy, we can't live like this, you/we have to get help, help can make things better.

6) consider contacting the state bar association and ask them what help is available for attorneys with personal problems. There's usually something called a "lawyer's assistance program" and sometimes peer mentors are available to confidentially mentor attorneys with depression and/or their family members (that's YOU). See http://www.dcbar.org/for_lawyers/bar_services/counseling/about.cfm

BTW, consulting an attorney doesn't have to be done jointly. You don't even have to tell your husband you've done it if you don't want, but you DO need to DO it.

Also, please consider getting into a support group for spouses of those with depression or other mental illnesses. NAMI and DBSA offer them. NAMI also offers an excellent 12 week course called Family to Family.

BTW, in answer to your original question, my husband was shell-shocked when I finally asked him to move out of the house. He did not understand the situation until I came to him and said, "I want you to move out this Friday. You can come pickup a suitcase Friday during the day while the kids are at school. You can stay with your brother or your friend X or in a hotel until you can find an apartment. You can come over and see the kids X, Y and Z days and I will come back to you in a few weeks with a proposed separation agreement we can discuss."

He seriously did not understand how far his behavior had deteriorated and how it affected us nor did he understand how serious I was about ending our relationship, despite the fact that I had made myself clear in private to him and together with therapists. Fortunately, he later hooked up with a better pdoc than the one he had at the time (who misdiagnosed and mistreated him) and he is doing better, but unfortunately it is too late for our relationship.

Good luck

OP here. Thanks for the thorough and amazing advice. (If you don't already have a shingle hanging from your door, get one!)
Here is an update. I essentially did a combination of 2, 4 and 5, and the upshot is that he has agreed to go back to his psychiatrist to restart meds. Not the same as acknowledging the damage his failures of self-care have done to our marriage and our family, but I believe an understanding that the time for languishing is done, and that I will really leave if things don't change. So in that way, his reaction when we finally started speaking again was similar to how you describe your ex--
"can it really be that bad?"

I'm not a big fan of his psychiatrist, but returning to professional care is a start and I fully intend to follow-up with this guy per your excellent suggestion. The thought had occurred to me (I swear I am not as milquetoast as I may sound) but I was concerned about the extent to which my outreach would be accepted/appropriate given HIPAA. The best practices you mention make perfect sense and show me at least another way to think about my role. I have no doubt that he is mis-stating (and not fully appreciating in the first place) his moods and state of mind, and thus not able to self-advocate for the best treatment regimen.

I don't know what will happen, but in the short term, being clearer about 2, and then pushing the envelope with 4 really opened the floodgates for us, probably by helping me refine my own thinking and being better prepared to talk with him. Regardless of what happens between us, I feel much more comfortable with the present state of things--silent treatment is more or less a crisis situation--and his pursuing treatment will be better for all of us whether we stay married or not.

Thanks, PP. I am really grateful for how clearly and honestly you put things.

[Anonymous]

13:56 here. Glad the logjam broke! But tread lightly; a lot of things have to go right to get out of the woods. Going back to the pdoc is just the first step. (Not to rain on the parade).

W/ pdoc, you might actually ask your hubby if you can attend his first session back w/ the pdoc for a few minutes at the beginning of the session. Introduce yourself, be super calm and polite, and just say that you came because you were really concerned. Give hubby props for returning to the pdoc and ask if you could just stay a minute or two to add a few things about red flags you've seen. Stick to unemotional facts like sleeping a lot, irritable, missing work, always being sick, etc. This gives the pdoc an opening to ask you questions if he gets the feeling he's not getting the straight scoop from hubby. Also a good doc will use this opportunity to ask something like, "oh I'm sure your husband would want you to get in touch with me if you were worried, right husband?" In that way, pdoc solves HIPPA problem by getting patient's consent (either by explicit patient response or implicitly by lack of patient objection).

Another approach is to call the pdoc the day before your husband's appointment and leave a voicemail with a few unemotionally stated concerns let him know if he can let your husband know you called and an "if you have questions you can call me at #". Pdoc may call (good sign), may call and say he can't talk to you (bad sign) or just not call at all (neutral).

Of course, only you can feel out how trying such a move will go over with husband.

Also, still highly recommend getting help for yourself -- spousal depression support group, NAMI 12 week Family to Family course, reading up on depression, and/or your own therapist to help you cope (must be one highly experienced in treating depression!)

yea!
good luck. Depression is a treatable disease.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:13:56 here. Glad the logjam broke! But tread lightly; a lot of things have to go right to get out of the woods. Going back to the pdoc is just the first step. (Not to rain on the parade).

W/ pdoc, you might actually ask your hubby if you can attend his first session back w/ the pdoc for a few minutes at the beginning of the session. Introduce yourself, be super calm and polite, and just say that you came because you were really concerned. Give hubby props for returning to the pdoc and ask if you could just stay a minute or two to add a few things about red flags you've seen. Stick to unemotional facts like sleeping a lot, irritable, missing work, always being sick, etc. This gives the pdoc an opening to ask you questions if he gets the feeling he's not getting the straight scoop from hubby. Also a good doc will use this opportunity to ask something like, "oh I'm sure your husband would want you to get in touch with me if you were worried, right husband?" In that way, pdoc solves HIPPA problem by getting patient's consent (either by explicit patient response or implicitly by lack of patient objection).

Another approach is to call the pdoc the day before your husband's appointment and leave a voicemail with a few unemotionally stated concerns let him know if he can let your husband know you called and an "if you have questions you can call me at #". Pdoc may call (good sign), may call and say he can't talk to you (bad sign) or just not call at all (neutral).

Of course, only you can feel out how trying such a move will go over with husband.

Also, still highly recommend getting help for yourself -- spousal depression support group, NAMI 12 week Family to Family course, reading up on depression, and/or your own therapist to help you cope (must be one highly experienced in treating depression!)

yea!
good luck. Depression is a treatable disease.

Yes, with your help, the silent treatment logjam broke, which allows us to have the discussions about what the heck comes next. I definitely know we're not out of the woods. Husband essentially ran back into the psychiatrist today (first available, apparently) so I missed the chance for the "first appointment back". I am going to follow-up and see what I can do to be explicit in my contact with the doc to make sure everyone is above board on the HIPAA front--the last thing I want to do is undermine his faith in his doc if he feels like I'm a conspiring in the process.

I also signed up for individual counseling, with the family therapist (PhD) who has worked with us as a couple in the past and knows our dynamics. I will need to do this no matter what happens--because anything could happen. I also plan to ask this therapist about whether the kids should be included in some way--they are old enough and smart enough to have questions about all that is going on. I don't know if it's too late for us, but I feel like each of us getting help puts us in the right direction for whatever happens.

Thank you so much for helping a complete stranger. I will be sending lots of positive energy your way through my various channels and hope the good karma gets to you in spades.

[Anonymous]

13:56 has given you some excellent advice OP.

[Anonymous]

OP, so glad you are moving on getting help and that you have gotten DH moving in the right directions as well. Wishing your family all the best of luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Thank you so much for helping a complete stranger. I will be sending lots of positive energy your way through my various channels and hope the good karma gets to you in spades.

Pay it forward by posting back in a few months and revealing what your path was, what works, what didn't, what the bumps were, how the kids cope, etc. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

[Anonymous]

This is one of the most moving threads ever. Good luck, OP and to the PP who gave such rich advice, you were very generous and thoughtful to reach out like that.