How to have Eternal Life

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see the point in eternal life. I'd rather have finite, but healthy & happy life, rather than "eternal." Quality not quantity, essentially.

So the thought of spending eternity in paradise with our Creator in perfect peace is unappealing to you?

We have different perspectives. A "creator" of peace, is also the creator of suffering, if all roads truly lead back to them as a creator of everything. And I'm not really interested in spending time with that kind of being. Ultimately this is simply not a worldview I could make myself believe in, if I tried.

But honestly, the concept of eternity sounds incredibly boring. And I'm not exactly a thrill seeker.

NP here. This a million times over. The Christian God seems like a narcissist, and the relationship with God that Christians promote sounds to me like an abusive, highly dysfunctional one. I also think paradise is a subjective concept.

In a way, even the meaning of eternity is debatable. Christians seem to assume it means an unending continuation of time. That's one meaning, for sure. But another meaning is being outside of time. Some religions have a different vision of eternal life after death, and it means that you experience eternity by escaping being-hood altogether. That vision appeals to me more than the Christian version of sitting around in some sort of brightly lit paradise with a bearded old man who pretty much gets people to follow him by gaslighting and torture and then the ultimate guilt trip of "I sacrificed my son for you," when, you know, I never asked him to do that.

The Christian God owes you or me zero explanations. Relationship with Christian God is clearly defined in the Bible and is older than me or you. Paradise is clearly documented place as witnessed in many Bible passages.
We don't assume things about eternity. Eternity is documented in the Genesis and all throughout New Testament.
It doesn't matter what appeals to you. What matters is if you will appeal to God. In Christianity, it's God's will first over human will.

There are scriptures from other religions that are OLDER than the bible. The fact that the bible is old doesn't mean it's documented fact.

And in the bible, it seems to me that god loves the prodigal son more. Won't that be a kicker? If god takes you for granted and even despises you for your failure to question anything and failure to use the brain and capacity for reason he supposedly gave you and then rewards the prodigal son, the one who questioned, the one who doubted? Won't that just be hilarious!

Any god worth worshiping isn't a god who would want his children to be lemmings who blindly follow because they read something in a really old book.

You are desperately trying to present things through human logic. The God of Bible operates at a level that cannot be grasped by human logic. The God of Bible asks for obedience. So, you either do or you do not. Obey. The rest are simply human, impermanent musings. You can indulge yourself in them but they help you nothing with the God of the Bible.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I am a Universalist. I believe that whatever happens when we die happens to all of us. I also believe in the inherent dignity and worth of every person and I believe in the Golden Rule. I believe in kindness and love. I believe in trying harder each day to be kinder and more loving. [/quote]

So the [b]serial killer, the murderer, the 3 year old who died from cancer, and the young mother killed by a drunk driver on her way home from the grocery store all have the same fate after death?[/b]

Not being rude, at all. Just trying to understand.

All people are of the same worth- each soul is priceless.[/quote]

I think the idea is that the ultimate fate is death, and we all meet that end. I think people have a tough time with the notion that there are no rewards or punishments after death because I think one of the ills of human nature is this perverse need to feel superior. I get the impression that Christians want to believe that they will be rewarded because they are righteous and other people aren't as good as they are. And Christians make it up as they go: if good things happen to them, they say it's because God loves them; if bad things happen, it's because God's testing them and they'll be rewarded after death.

More than anything, humans can't deal with uncertainty or ambiguity or, perhaps the worse of all, the possibility that a lot of what happens is kind of random.

[/quote]

Christians want all to be saved. Salvation is open to all; its good news.

True Christians do not think Salvation is open to only certain people; it’s open to everything who believes.

How does wanting humanity to exist with God in peace and love offend you?

You aren’t a body: you are a soul. You have a body but the real you is your soul.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay here's where I confess that the thought of eternity scares the sh!t out of me.

I mean when does it ever end?

It doesn't. That's the difficult part. God sent his Son to us to deliver us from our sins precisely because eternity burdened by the debt of sin is worse than anything you can possibly imagine in this life. We are spirit beings. Today we see massive onslaught against spirit. It will get worse in the end times. There will be only a handful of Christians left due to sheer hatred and prosecution against us. Yet, God's might is so indescribable. In one move He will smash all evil that ever existed. He will create new Earth and Heaven because he is not interested in correcting anything that is rotten. Corruption is irreversible. God is not interested in correcting and saving anything that has been corrupted. He is interested in a completely new. And His will be done.

You contradict yourself. If God isn't interested in saving things that have been corrupted, then he wouldn't have sent his son to deliver people from their sins, as you proclaim.

Christians like to talk in circles and then wave away the contradictions and hypocrisy in their words and actions. It also never ceases to amaze me how much Christians pretend to care about other people then take joy in the notion of the end times and the idea of people suffering.

If pinnacle of your day is to bash Christians than you have not found internal peace in your own religion or lack of thereof.

When did I say the "pinnacle of my day" was bashing Christians? But of course that's what Christians do when you question their contradictions, they shame you and then accuse you of not having internal peace.

For what it's worth, I've yet to meet a Christian IRL or in person who seems to have internal peace.

And frankly, I think humans are meant to have some angst, some inner rumblings. So I don't take your accusations as an insult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay here's where I confess that the thought of eternity scares the sh!t out of me.

I mean when does it ever end?

It doesn't. That's the difficult part. God sent his Son to us to deliver us from our sins precisely because eternity burdened by the debt of sin is worse than anything you can possibly imagine in this life. We are spirit beings. Today we see massive onslaught against spirit. It will get worse in the end times. There will be only a handful of Christians left due to sheer hatred and prosecution against us. Yet, God's might is so indescribable. In one move He will smash all evil that ever existed. He will create new Earth and Heaven because he is not interested in correcting anything that is rotten. Corruption is irreversible. God is not interested in correcting and saving anything that has been corrupted. He is interested in a completely new. And His will be done.

You contradict yourself. If God isn't interested in saving things that have been corrupted, then he wouldn't have sent his son to deliver people from their sins, as you proclaim.

Christians like to talk in circles and then wave away the contradictions and hypocrisy in their words and actions. It also never ceases to amaze me how much Christians pretend to care about other people then take joy in the notion of the end times and the idea of people suffering.

Calm down. Everything is ok. Try to find peace in your own religion.
If pinnacle of your day is to bash Christians than you have not found internal peace in your own religion or lack of thereof.

When did I say the "pinnacle of my day" was bashing Christians? But of course that's what Christians do when you question their contradictions, they shame you and then accuse you of not having internal peace.

For what it's worth, I've yet to meet a Christian IRL or in person who seems to have internal peace.

And frankly, I think humans are meant to have some angst, some inner rumblings. So I don't take your accusations as an insult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see the point in eternal life. I'd rather have finite, but healthy & happy life, rather than "eternal." Quality not quantity, essentially.

So the thought of spending eternity in paradise with our Creator in perfect peace is unappealing to you?

We have different perspectives. A "creator" of peace, is also the creator of suffering, if all roads truly lead back to them as a creator of everything. And I'm not really interested in spending time with that kind of being. Ultimately this is simply not a worldview I could make myself believe in, if I tried.

But honestly, the concept of eternity sounds incredibly boring. And I'm not exactly a thrill seeker.

NP here. This a million times over. The Christian God seems like a narcissist, and the relationship with God that Christians promote sounds to me like an abusive, highly dysfunctional one. I also think paradise is a subjective concept.

In a way, even the meaning of eternity is debatable. Christians seem to assume it means an unending continuation of time. That's one meaning, for sure. But another meaning is being outside of time. Some religions have a different vision of eternal life after death, and it means that you experience eternity by escaping being-hood altogether. That vision appeals to me more than the Christian version of sitting around in some sort of brightly lit paradise with a bearded old man who pretty much gets people to follow him by gaslighting and torture and then the ultimate guilt trip of "I sacrificed my son for you," when, you know, I never asked him to do that.

The Christian God owes you or me zero explanations. Relationship with Christian God is clearly defined in the Bible and is older than me or you. Paradise is clearly documented place as witnessed in many Bible passages.
We don't assume things about eternity. Eternity is documented in the Genesis and all throughout New Testament.
It doesn't matter what appeals to you. What matters is if you will appeal to God. In Christianity, it's God's will first over human will.

There are scriptures from other religions that are OLDER than the bible. The fact that the bible is old doesn't mean it's documented fact.

And in the bible, it seems to me that god loves the prodigal son more. Won't that be a kicker? If god takes you for granted and even despises you for your failure to question anything and failure to use the brain and capacity for reason he supposedly gave you and then rewards the prodigal son, the one who questioned, the one who doubted? Won't that just be hilarious!

Any god worth worshiping isn't a god who would want his children to be lemmings who blindly follow because they read something in a really old book.

You are desperately trying to present things through human logic. The God of Bible operates at a level that cannot be grasped by human logic. The God of Bible asks for obedience. So, you either do or you do not. Obey. The rest are simply human, impermanent musings. You can indulge yourself in them but they help you nothing with the God of the Bible.

Okay. At the end of the day, I'm going to go with logic. But, hey, you do you. Let me guess, you don't believe in science, climate change, etc.? Your fine with us willfully denying logic, reason, observation, and destroying the earth because, hey, end times, amirite!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see the point in eternal life. I'd rather have finite, but healthy & happy life, rather than "eternal." Quality not quantity, essentially.

So the thought of spending eternity in paradise with our Creator in perfect peace is unappealing to you?

We have different perspectives. A "creator" of peace, is also the creator of suffering, if all roads truly lead back to them as a creator of everything. And I'm not really interested in spending time with that kind of being. Ultimately this is simply not a worldview I could make myself believe in, if I tried.

But honestly, the concept of eternity sounds incredibly boring. And I'm not exactly a thrill seeker.

NP here. This a million times over. The Christian God seems like a narcissist, and the relationship with God that Christians promote sounds to me like an abusive, highly dysfunctional one. I also think paradise is a subjective concept.

In a way, even the meaning of eternity is debatable. Christians seem to assume it means an unending continuation of time. That's one meaning, for sure. But another meaning is being outside of time. Some religions have a different vision of eternal life after death, and it means that you experience eternity by escaping being-hood altogether. That vision appeals to me more than the Christian version of sitting around in some sort of brightly lit paradise with a bearded old man who pretty much gets people to follow him by gaslighting and torture and then the ultimate guilt trip of "I sacrificed my son for you," when, you know, I never asked him to do that.

The Christian God owes you or me zero explanations. Relationship with Christian God is clearly defined in the Bible and is older than me or you. Paradise is clearly documented place as witnessed in many Bible passages.
We don't assume things about eternity. Eternity is documented in the Genesis and all throughout New Testament.
It doesn't matter what appeals to you. What matters is if you will appeal to God. In Christianity, it's God's will first over human will.

There are scriptures from other religions that are OLDER than the bible. The fact that the bible is old doesn't mean it's documented fact.

And in the bible, it seems to me that god loves the prodigal son more. Won't that be a kicker? If god takes you for granted and even despises you for your failure to question anything and failure to use the brain and capacity for reason he supposedly gave you and then rewards the prodigal son, the one who questioned, the one who doubted? Won't that just be hilarious!

Any god worth worshiping isn't a god who would want his children to be lemmings who blindly follow because they read something in a really old book.

The lesson is redemption. To all, even those who come late.

Why does it matter how you came? Getting there is the lesson.

[Anonymous]

*you're

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see the point in eternal life. I'd rather have finite, but healthy & happy life, rather than "eternal." Quality not quantity, essentially.

So the thought of spending eternity in paradise with our Creator in perfect peace is unappealing to you?

We have different perspectives. A "creator" of peace, is also the creator of suffering, if all roads truly lead back to them as a creator of everything. And I'm not really interested in spending time with that kind of being. Ultimately this is simply not a worldview I could make myself believe in, if I tried.

But honestly, the concept of eternity sounds incredibly boring. And I'm not exactly a thrill seeker.

NP here. This a million times over. The Christian God seems like a narcissist, and the relationship with God that Christians promote sounds to me like an abusive, highly dysfunctional one. I also think paradise is a subjective concept.

In a way, even the meaning of eternity is debatable. Christians seem to assume it means an unending continuation of time. That's one meaning, for sure. But another meaning is being outside of time. Some religions have a different vision of eternal life after death, and it means that you experience eternity by escaping being-hood altogether. That vision appeals to me more than the Christian version of sitting around in some sort of brightly lit paradise with a bearded old man who pretty much gets people to follow him by gaslighting and torture and then the ultimate guilt trip of "I sacrificed my son for you," when, you know, I never asked him to do that.

The Christian God owes you or me zero explanations. Relationship with Christian God is clearly defined in the Bible and is older than me or you. Paradise is clearly documented place as witnessed in many Bible passages.
We don't assume things about eternity. Eternity is documented in the Genesis and all throughout New Testament.
It doesn't matter what appeals to you. What matters is if you will appeal to God. In Christianity, it's God's will first over human will.

There are scriptures from other religions that are OLDER than the bible. The fact that the bible is old doesn't mean it's documented fact.

And in the bible, it seems to me that god loves the prodigal son more. Won't that be a kicker? If god takes you for granted and even despises you for your failure to question anything and failure to use the brain and capacity for reason he supposedly gave you and then rewards the prodigal son, the one who questioned, the one who doubted? Won't that just be hilarious!

Any god worth worshiping isn't a god who would want his children to be lemmings who blindly follow because they read something in a really old book.

You are desperately trying to present things through human logic. The God of Bible operates at a level that cannot be grasped by human logic. The God of Bible asks for obedience. So, you either do or you do not. Obey. The rest are simply human, impermanent musings. You can indulge yourself in them but they help you nothing with the God of the Bible.

Okay. At the end of the day, I'm going to go with logic. But, hey, you do you. Let me guess, you don't believe in science, climate change, etc.? Your fine with us willfully denying logic, reason, observation, and destroying the earth because, hey, end times, amirite!

You sound traumatized. I am sorry that you are exposed to people and events who you perceive as threatening to the point that you make assumptions about strangers that you never met. You make battles in your own mind that do not exist. I hope you find internal peace through your own religion. Peace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see the point in eternal life. I'd rather have finite, but healthy & happy life, rather than "eternal." Quality not quantity, essentially.

So the thought of spending eternity in paradise with our Creator in perfect peace is unappealing to you?

We have different perspectives. A "creator" of peace, is also the creator of suffering, if all roads truly lead back to them as a creator of everything. And I'm not really interested in spending time with that kind of being. Ultimately this is simply not a worldview I could make myself believe in, if I tried.

But honestly, the concept of eternity sounds incredibly boring. And I'm not exactly a thrill seeker.

NP here. This a million times over. The Christian God seems like a narcissist, and the relationship with God that Christians promote sounds to me like an abusive, highly dysfunctional one. I also think paradise is a subjective concept.

In a way, even the meaning of eternity is debatable. Christians seem to assume it means an unending continuation of time. That's one meaning, for sure. But another meaning is being outside of time. Some religions have a different vision of eternal life after death, and it means that you experience eternity by escaping being-hood altogether. That vision appeals to me more than the Christian version of sitting around in some sort of brightly lit paradise with a bearded old man who pretty much gets people to follow him by gaslighting and torture and then the ultimate guilt trip of "I sacrificed my son for you," when, you know, I never asked him to do that.

The Christian God owes you or me zero explanations. Relationship with Christian God is clearly defined in the Bible and is older than me or you. Paradise is clearly documented place as witnessed in many Bible passages.
We don't assume things about eternity. Eternity is documented in the Genesis and all throughout New Testament.
It doesn't matter what appeals to you. What matters is if you will appeal to God. In Christianity, it's God's will first over human will.

There are scriptures from other religions that are OLDER than the bible. The fact that the bible is old doesn't mean it's documented fact.

And in the bible, it seems to me that god loves the prodigal son more. Won't that be a kicker? If god takes you for granted and even despises you for your failure to question anything and failure to use the brain and capacity for reason he supposedly gave you and then rewards the prodigal son, the one who questioned, the one who doubted? Won't that just be hilarious!

Any god worth worshiping isn't a god who would want his children to be lemmings who blindly follow because they read something in a really old book.

You are desperately trying to present things through human logic. The God of Bible operates at a level that cannot be grasped by human logic. The God of Bible asks for obedience. So, you either do or you do not. Obey. The rest are simply human, impermanent musings. You can indulge yourself in them but they help you nothing with the God of the Bible.

Okay. At the end of the day, I'm going to go with logic. But, hey, you do you. Let me guess, you don't believe in science, climate change, etc.? Your fine with us willfully denying logic, reason, observation, and destroying the earth because, hey, end times, amirite!

That’s your choice. But the religion forum is usually for religious discussions and discourse.

You have free will, as do I.

My choice to believe is anathema to you, and not logical. Got it. But truly my choice is just a valid as yours.

I don’t post religious topics anywhere else, and thought people who follow Christ or at least had an open mind would respond here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see the point in eternal life. I'd rather have finite, but healthy & happy life, rather than "eternal." Quality not quantity, essentially.

So the thought of spending eternity in paradise with our Creator in perfect peace is unappealing to you?

We have different perspectives. A "creator" of peace, is also the creator of suffering, if all roads truly lead back to them as a creator of everything. And I'm not really interested in spending time with that kind of being. Ultimately this is simply not a worldview I could make myself believe in, if I tried.

But honestly, the concept of eternity sounds incredibly boring. And I'm not exactly a thrill seeker.

NP here. This a million times over. The Christian God seems like a narcissist, and the relationship with God that Christians promote sounds to me like an abusive, highly dysfunctional one. I also think paradise is a subjective concept.

In a way, even the meaning of eternity is debatable. Christians seem to assume it means an unending continuation of time. That's one meaning, for sure. But another meaning is being outside of time. Some religions have a different vision of eternal life after death, and it means that you experience eternity by escaping being-hood altogether. That vision appeals to me more than the Christian version of sitting around in some sort of brightly lit paradise with a bearded old man who pretty much gets people to follow him by gaslighting and torture and then the ultimate guilt trip of "I sacrificed my son for you," when, you know, I never asked him to do that.

The Christian God owes you or me zero explanations. Relationship with Christian God is clearly defined in the Bible and is older than me or you. Paradise is clearly documented place as witnessed in many Bible passages.
We don't assume things about eternity. Eternity is documented in the Genesis and all throughout New Testament.
It doesn't matter what appeals to you. What matters is if you will appeal to God. In Christianity, it's God's will first over human will.

There are scriptures from other religions that are OLDER than the bible. The fact that the bible is old doesn't mean it's documented fact.

And in the bible, it seems to me that god loves the prodigal son more. Won't that be a kicker? If god takes you for granted and even despises you for your failure to question anything and failure to use the brain and capacity for reason he supposedly gave you and then rewards the prodigal son, the one who questioned, the one who doubted? Won't that just be hilarious!

Any god worth worshiping isn't a god who would want his children to be lemmings who blindly follow because they read something in a really old book.

You are desperately trying to present things through human logic. The God of Bible operates at a level that cannot be grasped by human logic. The God of Bible asks for obedience. So, you either do or you do not. Obey. The rest are simply human, impermanent musings. You can indulge yourself in them but they help you nothing with the God of the Bible.

+1

This isn’t a forum to discuss religion. It’s a forum for Christians to be mocked and attacked for discussing their religion.

Why do people who don’t believe just abstain from discussion here? Nobody is making them read or post?

[Anonymous]

What's making them read and post is that tiny flicker of spirit that ultimately fears God and knows that the retribution is coming. Deep down they know this is bigger than them. Hatred of Christianity than seems like the only answer. They are actually not arguing with Christians, they are arguing with themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's making them read and post is that tiny flicker of spirit that ultimately fears God and knows that the retribution is coming. Deep down they know this is bigger than them. Hatred of Christianity than seems like the only answer. They are actually not arguing with Christians, they are arguing with themselves.

If Christians posting here were very judgmental or rude, I could see pushback.

I don’t see that, only Christian discussion of faith and Salvation.

It’s just not right.

Fearing God is good. He is to be feared. But His immense and undying love for us is greater.

If you don’t like Christians, and reject God, and feel Jesus death was a minor detail if you are a Christian, I don’t know what to tell you.

Maybe start your own thread? Instead of thread jacking!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's making them read and post is that tiny flicker of spirit that ultimately fears God and knows that the retribution is coming. Deep down they know this is bigger than them. Hatred of Christianity than seems like the only answer. They are actually not arguing with Christians, they are arguing with themselves.

If Christians posting here were very judgmental or rude, I could see pushback.

I don’t see that, only Christian discussion of faith and Salvation.

It’s just not right.

Fearing God is good. He is to be feared. But His immense and undying love for us is greater.

If you don’t like Christians, and reject God, and feel Jesus death was a minor detail if you are a Christian, I don’t know what to tell you.

Maybe start your own thread? Instead of thread jacking!

Agreed. No one is compelling those that disagree with Christian tenants to engage in any debates. It's not like they will change any true Christians' minds.

[Anonymous]

Regarding the story of the prodigal son: the father loves both of his sons, and rejoices when the prodigal returns. I see so much misinterpretation of this parable. It is a parable, for one thing, not a real story, and is meant to be understood through that lens.

In the context of Jesus’ time, asking for your inheritance before your parent died was essentially a slap in their face, and basically meant that you wished for their death and saw no point in hanging around waiting for them to die. So there’s the fact that what the prodigal son did was utterly horrible.

The resentful, good son is essentially just being a jerk. In technical terms the rest of the inheritance is his, not the other son’s. He still has everything, and his brother only has his life. He’s just upset that his father is glad to see the lost son and got a party. Like, why isn’t he relieved that his brother isn’t dead? He’s being petty, and he doesn’t have love in his heart even though he “did” the right things. That matters. Where your heart is matters.

We have all been the prodigal son at one point or another. We have all turned away from God and gone on a bad path. And then we have regret and wonder if we can ever come back, can we ever be loved again? Well, God loves you, no matter what you did wrong or what mistakes you made and he will welcome you home with open arms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Regarding the story of the prodigal son: the father loves both of his sons, and rejoices when the prodigal returns. I see so much misinterpretation of this parable. It is a parable, for one thing, not a real story, and is meant to be understood through that lens.

In the context of Jesus’ time, asking for your inheritance before your parent died was essentially a slap in their face, and basically meant that you wished for their death and saw no point in hanging around waiting for them to die. So there’s the fact that what the prodigal son did was utterly horrible.

The resentful, good son is essentially just being a jerk. In technical terms the rest of the inheritance is his, not the other son’s. He still has everything, and his brother only has his life. He’s just upset that his father is glad to see the lost son and got a party. Like, why isn’t he relieved that his brother isn’t dead? He’s being petty, and he doesn’t have love in his heart even though he “did” the right things. That matters. Where your heart is matters.

We have all been the prodigal son at one point or another. We have all turned away from God and gone on a bad path. And then we have regret and wonder if we can ever come back, can we ever be loved again? Well, God loves you, no matter what you did wrong or what mistakes you made and he will welcome you home with open arms.

Amen. No matter how many times we turn our back to God, he’s still forgiving. It’s amazing love.

The other forums here are full of life, family, health, financial problems. As to be expected- Life is messy.


But somehow Christian discussion of Salvation is offensive to people.

Take a look around. Life is hard, even at its best. Leaning on God and accepting His love and Salvation is an absolute gift and blessing.