Next steps after 3 failed PGS normal FETs?

[Anonymous]

I believe this is relatively new in the immune related implantation issue, that some RE with the experiences in immune treatment will look into the level of copper and zinc in your system prior to embryo transfer and if your copper is not within the preferred level, this RE won't transfer the embryo. (I believe copper is used in IUD to interfere the implantation, so kind of make sense)
Other list of tests that this RE recommends are below (I took a test but haven't been able to see this RE as this clinic is oversea):
1 Free T4
2 TSH
3 HbA1c
4 Fasting Blood Sugar, A
5 Insulin B
6 HOMA-R=AxB/405
7 NK activity
8 Antinuclear Antibody
9 Lupus Anticoagulant
10 Anti-cardiolipin antibodies, IgG
11 Anti-cardiolipin antibodies, IgM
12 Anti-phosphatidylethanolamine antibodies IgG, kininogen (+)
13 Anti-phosphatidylethanolamine antibodies IgG, kininogen (-)
14 Anti-phosphatidylethanolamine antibodies IgM, kininogen (+)
15 Anti-phosphatidylethanolamine antibodies IgM, kininogen (-)
16 Anti-cl?2gpi complex antibody IgG
17 Anti-cl?2gpi complex antibody IgM
18 Anti-phosphatidylserine/prothrombin antibodies aPS-PT, IgG
19 Anti-phosphatidylserine/prothrombin antibodies aPS-PT, IgM
20 aPTT
21 PT-INR
22 Blood coagulation factor XII
23 Protein C Activity
24 Protein S Activity

[Anonymous]

16 and 17 are supposed to be:
16 Anti-clbeta2gpi complex antibody IgG
17 Anti-clbeta2gpi complex antibody IgM

[Anonymous]

Oh, I did not catch the part OP is 13wks!! Congratulation!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, OP, for the great news.
And it does give me hope. I am 43 and just recently completed my 4th IVF cycle, where after changes to my diet and supplements, we ended up with 2 normal PGS embryos. In February we attempted a PGS tested FET from the first batch that successfully gave us our son, but which unfortunately failed. Hence, the 3 IVF cycles this year.

My RE wants me to run all the tests (blood clotting, thyroid, ERA biopsy this cycle, etc...). I literally had my consultation with her THIS morning and left feeling somewhat optimistic and then a bit concerned after reading your posts from October. BUT, after reading your update I am so happy for you and your family and hope that we have success as well.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

OP again here. PP - congrats on your 2 normal embryos! That is 80% of the battle! I think it's a very good idea to do those tests. I had already set up a consult for blood clotting, thyroid and repeat loss panel with an endocrinologist before I got the call about the betas turning around. (Had previously done an ERA biopsy). I would add that you could also request a hysteroscopy, which does require sedation, but allows the doctor to go in with a scope and look for any polyps, scarring, etc. preventing implantation. My doc wanted to do this after our two failed FETs, and he did remove some small polyps. Who knows if that's what worked, but apparently polyps can create low-level inflammation and the embryos "don't like" to implant.

To the 12:28 poster with 3 failed FETs and recent chemical: would also encourage you to ask for a hysteroscopy, and an ERA biopsy if you haven't done it. I did have chemicals, but because I had the ERA, I felt a little more comfortable knowing it was some other issue that caused failure, not the right/wrong amount of progesterone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, OP, for the great news.
And it does give me hope. I am 43 and just recently completed my 4th IVF cycle, where after changes to my diet and supplements, we ended up with 2 normal PGS embryos. In February we attempted a PGS tested FET from the first batch that successfully gave us our son, but which unfortunately failed. Hence, the 3 IVF cycles this year.

My RE wants me to run all the tests (blood clotting, thyroid, ERA biopsy this cycle, etc...). I literally had my consultation with her THIS morning and left feeling somewhat optimistic and then a bit concerned after reading your posts from October. BUT, after reading your update I am so happy for you and your family and hope that we have success as well.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

What were those changes? Thanks for sharing.

And congratulations, OP, wonderful news!

The changes I made were:
No alcohol
Try to sleep better/more
cut/limit gluten
Regular acupuncture for fertility

Supplements I took:
CoQ10
L-Arganine
Maca
Vitamin D
Myo-inositol
Fish Oil

The last two were prescribed by a fertility nutritionist at Shady Grove (even though I am a patient at CFA). The others I took based on my own research and reading through this blog: http://natural-fertility-info.com/natural-fertility-expert

Hope this can help others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, OP, for the great news.
And it does give me hope. I am 43 and just recently completed my 4th IVF cycle, where after changes to my diet and supplements, we ended up with 2 normal PGS embryos. In February we attempted a PGS tested FET from the first batch that successfully gave us our son, but which unfortunately failed. Hence, the 3 IVF cycles this year.

My RE wants me to run all the tests (blood clotting, thyroid, ERA biopsy this cycle, etc...). I literally had my consultation with her THIS morning and left feeling somewhat optimistic and then a bit concerned after reading your posts from October. BUT, after reading your update I am so happy for you and your family and hope that we have success as well.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

OP again here. PP - congrats on your 2 normal embryos! That is 80% of the battle! I think it's a very good idea to do those tests. I had already set up a consult for blood clotting, thyroid and repeat loss panel with an endocrinologist before I got the call about the betas turning around. (Had previously done an ERA biopsy). I would add that you could also request a hysteroscopy, which does require sedation, but allows the doctor to go in with a scope and look for any polyps, scarring, etc. preventing implantation. My doc wanted to do this after our two failed FETs, and he did remove some small polyps. Who knows if that's what worked, but apparently polyps can create low-level inflammation and the embryos "don't like" to implant.

To the 12:28 poster with 3 failed FETs and recent chemical: would also encourage you to ask for a hysteroscopy, and an ERA biopsy if you haven't done it. I did have chemicals, but because I had the ERA, I felt a little more comfortable knowing it was some other issue that caused failure, not the right/wrong amount of progesterone.

Thank you OP! We are very excited and hopeful. I will check with my RE about hysteroscopy. Appreciate the tip!
Again, best of luck and keep us posted!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, OP, for the great news.
And it does give me hope. I am 43 and just recently completed my 4th IVF cycle, where after changes to my diet and supplements, we ended up with 2 normal PGS embryos. In February we attempted a PGS tested FET from the first batch that successfully gave us our son, but which unfortunately failed. Hence, the 3 IVF cycles this year.

My RE wants me to run all the tests (blood clotting, thyroid, ERA biopsy this cycle, etc...). I literally had my consultation with her THIS morning and left feeling somewhat optimistic and then a bit concerned after reading your posts from October. BUT, after reading your update I am so happy for you and your family and hope that we have success as well.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

OP again here. PP - congrats on your 2 normal embryos! That is 80% of the battle! I think it's a very good idea to do those tests. I had already set up a consult for blood clotting, thyroid and repeat loss panel with an endocrinologist before I got the call about the betas turning around. (Had previously done an ERA biopsy). I would add that you could also request a hysteroscopy, which does require sedation, but allows the doctor to go in with a scope and look for any polyps, scarring, etc. preventing implantation. My doc wanted to do this after our two failed FETs, and he did remove some small polyps. Who knows if that's what worked, but apparently polyps can create low-level inflammation and the embryos "don't like" to implant.

To the 12:28 poster with 3 failed FETs and recent chemical: would also encourage you to ask for a hysteroscopy, and an ERA biopsy if you haven't done it. I did have chemicals, but because I had the ERA, I felt a little more comfortable knowing it was some other issue that caused failure, not the right/wrong amount of progesterone.

I'm at GW and did a EFT and my lining was great. Perhaps the progesterone was off but the idea of spending another three months testing this plus the amount of time it'll take for retrieval just feels insurmountable. This is all so confusing b/c it's not like you do 1+1=baby. It might be 1+1+ 5=baby or miscarriage or nothing. You just never know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the OP of this thread, back for a really strange update... but I thought it could provide encouragement to others. What we thought was another chemical pregnancy when I posted this (HCG at 9 days post-6dt came back at only 28) somehow, miraculously, started to climb. My bloodwork two days later came back at 98, and then 232. I literally told the nurse, "What the f-k, you guys said this wasn't viable; what is going on?" I had already made appointments for three second opinions and had been researching all the immune issues that posters here had suggested! Plus my chemical from the first transfer was an HCG of 41 on day 9, so how could this be happening? But lo and behold, it kept going up for the next three weeks and then at 7 weeks the doctor found a healthy heartbeat. I asked for an explanation since everything I read and everything they told me said the embryo wasn't going to make it. And why would this one make it after 2 failures of other PGS normals? He said he didn't have an answer, but that maybe once every few years he sees success with an HCG that low, and that it can be either really late implantation or a problem with the HCG being metabolized-- or simply unexplained. We had the 13 week scan today and this stubborn little $50,000 peach was bouncing around, doing perfectly. Just goes to show this process can be a total, inexplicable and illogical roll of the dice. But I hope this is helpful for someone else.

OP, I just wanted to say how happy I am for you and to thank you for sharing this. I've been looking for internet success stories and today picked up Shady Grove's 20-success story packet they share on their website and they're all like "we tried naturally forever and ultimately tried ART and POOF! Pregnant! Here's my gorgeous child!" After trying for a year and then diagnosing low egg reserve on my end and male factor stuff on my husband's, we started IVF. Before Thanksgiving we had our third embryo transfer (2 embryo FET after a failed single FET earlier in the fall and a fresh transfer this summer that resulted in chemical pregnancy). Lo and behold it worked. And then...no heartbeat at 8.5 week ultrasound. So i'm just back from D & C and feeling so defeated and depressed and your story gives me hope. On the plus side we'll do testing as to why this round didn't work and PGS on the next round, so hopefully be better informed next time....Anyway, congratulations again. What wonderful news to come across.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the OP of this thread, back for a really strange update... but I thought it could provide encouragement to others. What we thought was another chemical pregnancy when I posted this (HCG at 9 days post-6dt came back at only 28) somehow, miraculously, started to climb. My bloodwork two days later came back at 98, and then 232. I literally told the nurse, "What the f-k, you guys said this wasn't viable; what is going on?" I had already made appointments for three second opinions and had been researching all the immune issues that posters here had suggested! Plus my chemical from the first transfer was an HCG of 41 on day 9, so how could this be happening? But lo and behold, it kept going up for the next three weeks and then at 7 weeks the doctor found a healthy heartbeat. I asked for an explanation since everything I read and everything they told me said the embryo wasn't going to make it. And why would this one make it after 2 failures of other PGS normals? He said he didn't have an answer, but that maybe once every few years he sees success with an HCG that low, and that it can be either really late implantation or a problem with the HCG being metabolized-- or simply unexplained. We had the 13 week scan today and this stubborn little $50,000 peach was bouncing around, doing perfectly. Just goes to show this process can be a total, inexplicable and illogical roll of the dice. But I hope this is helpful for someone else.

OP, I just wanted to say how happy I am for you and to thank you for sharing this. I've been looking for internet success stories and today picked up Shady Grove's 20-success story packet they share on their website and they're all like "we tried naturally forever and ultimately tried ART and POOF! Pregnant! Here's my gorgeous child!" After trying for a year and then diagnosing low egg reserve on my end and male factor stuff on my husband's, we started IVF. Before Thanksgiving we had our third embryo transfer (2 embryo FET after a failed single FET earlier in the fall and a fresh transfer this summer that resulted in chemical pregnancy). Lo and behold it worked. And then...no heartbeat at 8.5 week ultrasound. So i'm just back from D & C and feeling so defeated and depressed and your story gives me hope. On the plus side we'll do testing as to why this round didn't work and PGS on the next round, so hopefully be better informed next time....Anyway, congratulations again. What wonderful news to come across.

PP - please don't feel swayed by many success stories. They are mostly achieved with DEs, which basically eliminates most infertility issues. So, most clinics are not really treating infertility. They are, however, providing people with viable pregnancies and children mostly via DEs. So, if you are doing anything with your own eggs and dealing with actual infertility just know that the road is indeed long, exhausting, and fraught with lots of heartache. But keep going. Just keep going. Sending you all my positive thoughts.

[Anonymous]

For what it is worth - I only ever got pregnant on fresh cycles. No PGS testing for me in he last try because I was sure FET would not work. The fresh cycle worked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the OP of this thread, back for a really strange update... but I thought it could provide encouragement to others. What we thought was another chemical pregnancy when I posted this (HCG at 9 days post-6dt came back at only 28) somehow, miraculously, started to climb. My bloodwork two days later came back at 98, and then 232. I literally told the nurse, "What the f-k, you guys said this wasn't viable; what is going on?" I had already made appointments for three second opinions and had been researching all the immune issues that posters here had suggested! Plus my chemical from the first transfer was an HCG of 41 on day 9, so how could this be happening? But lo and behold, it kept going up for the next three weeks and then at 7 weeks the doctor found a healthy heartbeat. I asked for an explanation since everything I read and everything they told me said the embryo wasn't going to make it. And why would this one make it after 2 failures of other PGS normals? He said he didn't have an answer, but that maybe once every few years he sees success with an HCG that low, and that it can be either really late implantation or a problem with the HCG being metabolized-- or simply unexplained. We had the 13 week scan today and this stubborn little $50,000 peach was bouncing around, doing perfectly. Just goes to show this process can be a total, inexplicable and illogical roll of the dice. But I hope this is helpful for someone else.

OP, I just wanted to say how happy I am for you and to thank you for sharing this. I've been looking for internet success stories and today picked up Shady Grove's 20-success story packet they share on their website and they're all like "we tried naturally forever and ultimately tried ART and POOF! Pregnant! Here's my gorgeous child!" After trying for a year and then diagnosing low egg reserve on my end and male factor stuff on my husband's, we started IVF. Before Thanksgiving we had our third embryo transfer (2 embryo FET after a failed single FET earlier in the fall and a fresh transfer this summer that resulted in chemical pregnancy). Lo and behold it worked. And then...no heartbeat at 8.5 week ultrasound. So i'm just back from D & C and feeling so defeated and depressed and your story gives me hope. On the plus side we'll do testing as to why this round didn't work and PGS on the next round, so hopefully be better informed next time....Anyway, congratulations again. What wonderful news to come across.

PP - please don't feel swayed by many success stories. They are mostly achieved with DEs, which basically eliminates most infertility issues. So, most clinics are not really treating infertility. They are, however, providing people with viable pregnancies and children mostly via DEs. So, if you are doing anything with your own eggs and dealing with actual infertility just know that the road is indeed long, exhausting, and fraught with lots of heartache. But keep going. Just keep going. Sending you all my positive thoughts.

Not sure where you get your stats from when you claimed most got pregnant with DE. I just don’t think that’s true. DE is not the standard practice here. FWIW, I’m a SGF patient with with a success on my first try and now pregnant with my second. Own eggs! Don’t frighten others into thinking they can only achieve success with DE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the OP of this thread, back for a really strange update... but I thought it could provide encouragement to others. What we thought was another chemical pregnancy when I posted this (HCG at 9 days post-6dt came back at only 28) somehow, miraculously, started to climb. My bloodwork two days later came back at 98, and then 232. I literally told the nurse, "What the f-k, you guys said this wasn't viable; what is going on?" I had already made appointments for three second opinions and had been researching all the immune issues that posters here had suggested! Plus my chemical from the first transfer was an HCG of 41 on day 9, so how could this be happening? But lo and behold, it kept going up for the next three weeks and then at 7 weeks the doctor found a healthy heartbeat. I asked for an explanation since everything I read and everything they told me said the embryo wasn't going to make it. And why would this one make it after 2 failures of other PGS normals? He said he didn't have an answer, but that maybe once every few years he sees success with an HCG that low, and that it can be either really late implantation or a problem with the HCG being metabolized-- or simply unexplained. We had the 13 week scan today and this stubborn little $50,000 peach was bouncing around, doing perfectly. Just goes to show this process can be a total, inexplicable and illogical roll of the dice. But I hope this is helpful for someone else.

OP, I just wanted to say how happy I am for you and to thank you for sharing this. I've been looking for internet success stories and today picked up Shady Grove's 20-success story packet they share on their website and they're all like "we tried naturally forever and ultimately tried ART and POOF! Pregnant! Here's my gorgeous child!" After trying for a year and then diagnosing low egg reserve on my end and male factor stuff on my husband's, we started IVF. Before Thanksgiving we had our third embryo transfer (2 embryo FET after a failed single FET earlier in the fall and a fresh transfer this summer that resulted in chemical pregnancy). Lo and behold it worked. And then...no heartbeat at 8.5 week ultrasound. So i'm just back from D & C and feeling so defeated and depressed and your story gives me hope. On the plus side we'll do testing as to why this round didn't work and PGS on the next round, so hopefully be better informed next time....Anyway, congratulations again. What wonderful news to come across.

PP - please don't feel swayed by many success stories. They are mostly achieved with DEs, which basically eliminates most infertility issues. So, most clinics are not really treating infertility. They are, however, providing people with viable pregnancies and children mostly via DEs. So, if you are doing anything with your own eggs and dealing with actual infertility just know that the road is indeed long, exhausting, and fraught with lots of heartache. But keep going. Just keep going. Sending you all my positive thoughts.

Not sure where you get your stats from when you claimed most got pregnant with DE. I just don’t think that’s true. DE is not the standard practice here. FWIW, I’m a SGF patient with with a success on my first try and now pregnant with my second. Own eggs! Don’t frighten others into thinking they can only achieve success with DE.

I get it from here: https://www.sartcorsonline.com/rptCSR_PublicMultYear.aspx?reportingYear=2015#donor-fresh-egg
I looked at the live birth rates, OEs vs. DEs, and DEs resulted in higher birth rate for year 2015 for all clinics in the US. Live birth is the final and the most meaningful figure.
That is not to say that people did not and will not conceive with their own eggs.
I absolutely encourage the PP to continue fighting with all she has in her with OEs. I am doing the same things.

[Anonymous]

I am sorry, OP, and understand how frustrating this is. We also pay OOP and it really makes the disappointment that much worse. It sounds like you've done all of the due diligence most would do in your shoes. It's not too helpful or comforting, but I think you just might not be on the right side of the success curve yet. We have unexplained infertility and did every test under the sun. After a series of IUIs we did three cycles of IVF and had success on the third try. At your age (I'm just a tiny bit younger) it simply will likely take more time. I know that stinks to hear (and between the reasons you're doing IVF and my diagnosis of unexplained, I know we both hate hearing non-answers for something that should be more cut and dry). Keep working with you're RE and hopefully you will have success soon. Keeping you in my thoughts! <}

[Anonymous]

OP here again! I am so glad this story has given some others a bit of hope. We're heading into 18 weeks (yay!!) and I am getting nervous for our 20 week scan.

For poster 09:15 (GW patient who did the EFT) the ERA is indeed different, as it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the lining -- it's measures whether the amount of progesterone support in your system is enough/too much to support successful embryo implantation and growth. If your progesterone is "off" as you said, it will always be a problem and always prevent a successful transfer because your doctor won't know to adjust the dates. My "mock" biopsy cycle only took about a month, not three months - I did it in between a failed FET and the next FET. And I was definitely annoyed to have to spend time doing that rather than move on to another attempt, but I am very glad I got the reassurance that the days of progesterone were calibrated correctly. When I asked my RE for data to convince me it was worth doing it, he said that this past year he had 14 patients out of 78 tested come back as either pre-receptive (too soon), or post-receptive (too late), after doing the biopsy. With being OOP and it being tough to get PGS normal embryos, I didn't want to risk it.

16:46: I am so incredibly sorry to hear about your D&C and losing the pregnancy when you finally got your hard-won PFP and made it all the way to 8.5 weeks. It's heartbreaking! It does sound like it may have been something that could get picked up in PGS testing, so I would definitely do that if you can for your next cycle(S). My second round I had three embryos that came back as trisomies (18 and 22) after testing our five, 6 day blasts that made it. The first cycle, only one out of two was normal because the other one was a trisomy also. So, if any of those four with trisomies had been put in, they would have resulted in a similar miscarriage or need for termination, eventually. But we wouldn't have known that without PGS.

18:04: There definitely seems to be something to fresh transfers working in some women where frozens never "take"! I have seen that on many board posts about multiple failed FETs. That was actually going to be a plan B for our next cycle that I was going to demand we do, until this one unexpectedly worked. (of course, then there is the flip side where you can't do PGS testing on fresh transfers... but still totally worth it as a different tact to try, especially since PGS is not 100% and can misidentify normal embryos).

13:06: Thank you for the kind words! See middle of page 2 for my crazy update - we finally got good news.

[Anonymous]

I am the OP of this thread, posting again with an update in case it offers encouragement or hope for anyone. We welcomed a healthy baby girl in June of this year (8lbs, 6 oz, 21 inches!) and just celebrated her 6 month "birthday." I certainly didn't imagine this outcome when faced with the very low HCG and after two PGS failures.
Wishing everyone happy holidays, and plenty of defiance of the odds to go around to every single poster on this board.