Harvard and the elite grade inflation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at Harvard who is doing a science concentration. This quote stood out to me in particular for being inaccurate from her experiences.

Three biochemistry graduate students I knew and trusted all had an identical story. In the introductory course they taught, undergraduates weren’t required to show up at a single lecture or section; they could score in the teens on the final and still pass. The professor’s basis for leniency, they said, was that “they pay too much tuition for us to fail them.”

In lecture based courses, students are given exams with expectations set to slightly inflated standards (A = 90+, A- = 87-90, B+ = 83-87, B = 80-83, B- = 75-80, etc). The more difficult classes, like organic chemistry, have higher curves (A = 85+, B = 70+, C = 55+), but this is the case at many universities as well (Berkeley O'Chem, A= 80+, B = 70+, C = 60+). In general, students do extremely well, with a median consistently around the 90 range. This is not because they make the tests easier, but rather because the students are exceptionally capable and hard-working. The notion of scoring in the teens and passing seems unimaginable.

I don't understand what you are trying to point out. You can set grades based on scores but the markings of the paper for the elites could be skewed - I could mark a paper to be 90 when it actually should be a 75. So student gets an A. But was the marking honest? No.

Anyone with any experience writing exams knows you can set the mean anywhere you like through the questions you choose. If 80is an A, and most are getting 90's year in year out, it isn't because the students are bright. It is because the professors have chosen to set the median there. The students may very well be bright, but not because they get 90s on an orgo exam.

It feels lousy to sit for exams where a strong performance is a 70. But there is a lot of educational value to the experience. And such exams really separate the kids who are good enough for med school from the truly stellar.

I agree. And don't forget the classes where attendance counts for % of the grade or the make up exams. Grades don't show how smart a kid is - as the parent who posted the grade distribution, critical thinking is what we need and we need to measure that. Not regurgitation.

Yes. Clearly the original poster with the distributions couldn't pass any stats exam I wrote, even with a curve.

But, but,but....her/his child goes to Harvard!!!! So automatically must be very smart!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm probably actually one of the few people that attended both Berkeley and Harvard undergrad.

Harvard is not this grade-inflated free for all and Berkeley is not this impossible pressure-cooker. At both schools, there are higher level classes that are notoriously tough for those who want to go on to a PhD (usually) where many people leave early on while you can drop a class. At both schools, there were also notoriously easy fluff classes and majors.

Actually, at Harvard, it was harder to get a 4.0 than at Berkeley. I knew quite a few 4.0s at Berkeley, but nobody at Harvard had one in my graduating class.

That is probably because 1) There are more undergraduate students at Berkeley than at Harvard and, 2) top 1% (~300) at Berkeley would be academically stronger students (since they do not have URM preference, legacy admits, developmental cases, admission through connections etc.) compared to the top 1% (~65) at Harvard although an average Harvard student would probably be stronger than an average Berkeley student.

True.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why should kids that get into these elite colleges get Bs? A curve at schools <1% of teens in the nation can get into is stupid.

Instead of obsessing over the As these elite kids get, maybe you should obsess over the As and Bs all these worthless colleges give everyone who's breathing. Baristas at Starbucks have bachelors degrees and struggle to read The Times they sell.

I was with you and thought you were going to say... stop obsessing over As and make sure we have good moral kids graduation but then you went dark.

The kids are already smart we just need them to stop tanking the economy for their own financial gain.

You see how the inflated grades plays into that, right?

[Anonymous]

So, what you people and this article is telling me, is that kids at small colleges, that so many would scoff at are in fact working harder and are possibly smarter than kids at these prestigious schools where parents are buying the degrees? I have to say that this rubs me wrong. If I had millions, I could have just contacted the prestigious school and donated money to get my kid in? How much money buys you an acceptance and a degree at Harvard? As an immigrant to the US, my older kid is going to college and working hard at a small, not prestigious at all college that we can afford, and there was no way he could have even gotten into one of these Ivies even with a 4.3 GPA, due to not good SAT score because English was not his first language but as a citizen he had to have that, at least that is what he was told. So much, for land of opportunity, more like opportunism.

[Anonymous]

So true. I'm freelance but am involved in screening interns for several publications. We no longer consider Ivy League graduates. They had impressive resumes but were entitled and not particularly creative or reliable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, what you people and this article is telling me, is that kids at small colleges, that so many would scoff at are in fact working harder and are possibly smarter than kids at these prestigious schools where parents are buying the degrees? I have to say that this rubs me wrong. If I had millions, I could have just contacted the prestigious school and donated money to get my kid in? How much money buys you an acceptance and a degree at Harvard? As an immigrant to the US, my older kid is going to college and working hard at a small, not prestigious at all college that we can afford, and there was no way he could have even gotten into one of these Ivies even with a 4.3 GPA, due to not good SAT score because English was not his first language but as a citizen he had to have that, at least that is what he was told. So much, for land of opportunity, more like opportunism.

US is about the only developed country where parents (or grandparents) can buy their kids admission to elite private universities. No other developed country allows this practice. Not even China and not even South Korea. US is the only developed country lacking universal healthcare and the only country allowing this shameful "bribery".

[Anonymous]

But, of course, the rich in these foreign countries are also bribing our elite private institutions to get their precious spawn in our universities as well. So much for the moral purity outside of the United States.

[Anonymous]

I don't think folks realize how laughably easy the average public state college -- which let in everyone with a pulse -- is. Obsessing over Ivy League grade inflation is silly. Ivy League kids at age 17 are smarter than most public U dummy GRADUATES.

[Anonymous]

The "buying your degree" thing is being oversold here. It probably accounts for a few percent of admits, but it is far from being the rule. Read Goldin's Price of Admission for some actual stats on big donors, and also for good stories about how colleges handle this (Harvard makes the kids wait a year).

The much more common way to "buy your way in" is to buy your kid squash or fencing coaching (both expensive sports) and get recruited. Or, donate decent but not huge amounts consistently as an alumn to help your kid's chances. Can you find your kid's horse at the college? You're in! I think there was something about sailing, too. But outright purchasing a degree, a la Jared Kushner, is rarer than you guys seem to think,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think folks realize how laughably easy the average public state college -- which let in everyone with a pulse -- is. Obsessing over Ivy League grade inflation is silly. Ivy League kids at age 17 are smarter than most public U dummy GRADUATES.

Are you the same teen who is boosting Blair over TJ on the other thread? Blair mom here to say you look like an idiot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, what you people and this article is telling me, is that kids at small colleges, that so many would scoff at are in fact working harder and are possibly smarter than kids at these prestigious schools where parents are buying the degrees? I have to say that this rubs me wrong. If I had millions, I could have just contacted the prestigious school and donated money to get my kid in? How much money buys you an acceptance and a degree at Harvard? As an immigrant to the US, my older kid is going to college and working hard at a small, not prestigious at all college that we can afford, and there was no way he could have even gotten into one of these Ivies even with a 4.3 GPA, due to not good SAT score because English was not his first language but as a citizen he had to have that, at least that is what he was told. So much, for land of opportunity, more like opportunism.

US is about the only developed country where parents (or grandparents) can buy their kids admission to elite private universities. No other developed country allows this practice. Not even China and not even South Korea. US is the only developed country lacking universal healthcare and the only country allowing this shameful "bribery".

BS. Every country does things their own elite protecting way. In some you list, the "rich buy-in" just occurs at the secondary level but the outcome is the same. Access to the elite tracks is still closed to many of China's smartest due to family status, and funds. My husband, not Chinese, was valedictorian at his only school option, but test scores were weighted by "quality" of high school, so he was SOL for his chosen program. Kids in the French Ban lieus (sorry about the spelling there) might not have access to courses needed for their matric... we aren't so special here.

I give you health care, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, what you people and this article is telling me, is that kids at small colleges, that so many would scoff at are in fact working harder and are possibly smarter than kids at these prestigious schools where parents are buying the degrees? I have to say that this rubs me wrong. If I had millions, I could have just contacted the prestigious school and donated money to get my kid in? How much money buys you an acceptance and a degree at Harvard? As an immigrant to the US, my older kid is going to college and working hard at a small, not prestigious at all college that we can afford, and there was no way he could have even gotten into one of these Ivies even with a 4.3 GPA, due to not good SAT score because English was not his first language but as a citizen he had to have that, at least that is what he was told. So much, for land of opportunity, more like opportunism.

US is about the only developed country where parents (or grandparents) can buy their kids admission to elite private universities. No other developed country allows this practice. Not even China and not even South Korea. US is the only developed country lacking universal healthcare and the only country allowing this shameful "bribery".

BS. Every country does things their own elite protecting way. In some you list, the "rich buy-in" just occurs at the secondary level but the outcome is the same. Access to the elite tracks is still closed to many of China's smartest due to family status, and funds. My husband, not Chinese, was valedictorian at his only school option, but test scores were weighted by "quality" of high school, so he was SOL for his chosen program. Kids in the French Ban lieus (sorry about the spelling there) might not have access to courses needed for their matric... we aren't so special here.

I give you health care, though.

In S. Korea, the University President, College Dean, Admissions Director and couple of professors were sentenced to several years of imprisonment for admitting an unqualified student into an elite university whose mother had extensive political connection to political leaders and used that connection and wealth to gain university admission for her daughter.

That will never happen here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, what you people and this article is telling me, is that kids at small colleges, that so many would scoff at are in fact working harder and are possibly smarter than kids at these prestigious schools where parents are buying the degrees? I have to say that this rubs me wrong. If I had millions, I could have just contacted the prestigious school and donated money to get my kid in? How much money buys you an acceptance and a degree at Harvard? As an immigrant to the US, my older kid is going to college and working hard at a small, not prestigious at all college that we can afford, and there was no way he could have even gotten into one of these Ivies even with a 4.3 GPA, due to not good SAT score because English was not his first language but as a citizen he had to have that, at least that is what he was told. So much, for land of opportunity, more like opportunism.

US is about the only developed country where parents (or grandparents) can buy their kids admission to elite private universities. No other developed country allows this practice. Not even China and not even South Korea. US is the only developed country lacking universal healthcare and the only country allowing this shameful "bribery".

BS. Every country does things their own elite protecting way. In some you list, the "rich buy-in" just occurs at the secondary level but the outcome is the same. Access to the elite tracks is still closed to many of China's smartest due to family status, and funds. My husband, not Chinese, was valedictorian at his only school option, but test scores were weighted by "quality" of high school, so he was SOL for his chosen program. Kids in the French Ban lieus (sorry about the spelling there) might not have access to courses needed for their matric... we aren't so special here.

I give you health care, though.

In S. Korea, the University President, College Dean, Admissions Director and couple of professors were sentenced to several years of imprisonment for admitting an unqualified student into an elite university whose mother had extensive political connection to political leaders and used that connection and wealth to gain university admission for her daughter.

That will never happen here.

Exactly what we need here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The "buying your degree" thing is being oversold here. It probably accounts for a few percent of admits, but it is far from being the rule. Read Goldin's Price of Admission for some actual stats on big donors, and also for good stories about how colleges handle this (Harvard makes the kids wait a year).

The much more common way to "buy your way in" is to buy your kid squash or fencing coaching (both expensive sports) and get recruited. Or, donate decent but not huge amounts consistently as an alumn to help your kid's chances. Can you find your kid's horse at the college? You're in! I think there was something about sailing, too. But outright purchasing a degree, a la Jared Kushner, is rarer than you guys seem to think,

It is more than u think - our kids are at a NE prep school - it is more than a dozen ivy and Stanford admits due to $$$$$. Even Duke. The public has no idea how prevalent this is. You would be shocked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The "buying your degree" thing is being oversold here. It probably accounts for a few percent of admits, but it is far from being the rule. Read Goldin's Price of Admission for some actual stats on big donors, and also for good stories about how colleges handle this (Harvard makes the kids wait a year).

The much more common way to "buy your way in" is to buy your kid squash or fencing coaching (both expensive sports) and get recruited. Or, donate decent but not huge amounts consistently as an alumn to help your kid's chances. Can you find your kid's horse at the college? You're in! I think there was something about sailing, too. But outright purchasing a degree, a la Jared Kushner, is rarer than you guys seem to think,

Did u read the SONY emails that were hacked? There were several on admission to Brown and the amount of donation needed. Google it.