Rich v Affluent

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think part of the issue is that most of us in the $200k-$400k range push our income to its limits. I.e. we buy the most expensive house we can afford, get the best car we can afford, renovate the house if we can afford it, but the kid in fancy preschool/the best daycare, etc. So none of us feel like we just have a bunch of money lying around and can do/buy anything we want, which is what we expect "rich" to feel like.

Our HHI is around $300k (one kid) and I don't feel rich at all, because after mortgage, daycare, car payment, utilities, and retirement savings we have basically nothing leftover. I am constantly thinking about whether we should be saving more for college, moving to a district with a better middle/high school, visiting both sets of grandparents this year, etc. None of that can be accomplished without careful planning and tough choices. So it's hard to feel "rich" in that situation, even though objectively I know I have a very nice and comfortable life and am better off than the vast majority of people in this country. I think the more accurate thing is just to say "you are in the top x% of earners in [area]" and not try to use normative terms like "rich" or "affluent" that seem to imply a lifestyle that most of us don't have.

I agree with this. I hear people saying they aren't 'rich' or 'affluent' because they don't FEEL rich/affluent. To me, being "affluent" isn't a feeling, it's straight numbers. If you early more than that great majority of people in your metro area then you are affluent but you can't get people who have stretched their high income to its limit to believe that. Better to just keep it in the realm of basic income statistics. Clearly, there are a lot of people of DCUM who are clueless about the income levels of most people in DC much less the US.

[Anonymous]

Rich is net worth. Income certainly can be conducive to net worth, but it is not the same as net worth. Don't talk to me about incomes and 'rich.' Rich is assets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think part of the issue is that most of us in the $200k-$400k range push our income to its limits. I.e. we buy the most expensive house we can afford, get the best car we can afford, renovate the house if we can afford it, but the kid in fancy preschool/the best daycare, etc. So none of us feel like we just have a bunch of money lying around and can do/buy anything we want, which is what we expect "rich" to feel like.

Our HHI is around $300k (one kid) and I don't feel rich at all, because after mortgage, daycare, car payment, utilities, and retirement savings we have basically nothing leftover. I am constantly thinking about whether we should be saving more for college, moving to a district with a better middle/high school, visiting both sets of grandparents this year, etc. None of that can be accomplished without careful planning and tough choices. So it's hard to feel "rich" in that situation, even though objectively I know I have a very nice and comfortable life and am better off than the vast majority of people in this country. I think the more accurate thing is just to say "you are in the top x% of earners in [area]" and not try to use normative terms like "rich" or "affluent" that seem to imply a lifestyle that most of us don't have.

This and I'll add as a single person making around 150k I feel very affluent but my expenses are barely anything

If I get married and have kids with daycare, bigger place to live mortgage payment, more expenses with 4 people instead of 1 overall at 300k I bet I would feel much less well off than I do single at 150k. (Still well off though especially compared to most people)

[Anonymous]

I think the question is why do you care so much about these labels?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rich is net worth. Income certainly can be conducive to net worth, but it is not the same as net worth. Don't talk to me about incomes and 'rich.' Rich is assets.

This brings us to the great trouble underlying the conversation -- financial planning and expectations. Many people in the 80 to 99.5 income bracket may like they are on treadmill because they are spending most of the their incomes. Being on a treadmill doesn't make you middle class. However, it does put you in a precarious position.

Although there are many expenditures that feel justifiable and are, in fact, very nice, the fact is that a lot of us are trading our ability to be debt-free or to build actual wealth ... despite the fact that many of us make more than almost everyone else in the country or even in our high-cost region. This is a larger, cultural problem. I know I'm at least partway captive to it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:200k in the DC area is "very affluent"?

LOL, what are you smoking?

Yes it is

Seriously, what is it? It's obviously some good stuff, I want some.

you mean to tell me that an individual earning over $200,000 isn't very affluent? I earn half that and I'm very comfortable.

Yes, I do. And a family making $400k isn't either. Welcome to DC.

Then should I cancel my summer river cruise to Amsterdam? Apparently, that's for affluent people, and I only earn $110,000. I'm beginning to think you are all a bunch of spoiled 30-somethings who never learned what it feels like to "make do."

For example, I grew up in an UMC home. But when I graduated from college, all I could afford was a dumpy apartment. It was quite a let-down from the beautiful house I grew up in, but hey....that's life, and I was only earning $45,000. (All figures translated to today's dollars.) Then I moved up the ladder and started earning $75,000, at which time I bought a teensy condo. Several years later, I got bumped to $100,000, and bought a nice townhouse out in the suburbs. Still had plenty left for international travel, season theater tickets, clubhouse level at Nationals games, a bi-weekly maid, etc. Definitely upper-middle class.

But it's because I started out in the dumpy apartment at $45,000 that I appreciate how upscale one's lifestyle can be on $100,000. I suspect some of you bitching about $400,000 being middle class came out of law school to a $150,000 salary and don't have a clue what TRUE middle class is.

OK, point taken. Congrats on what you've accomplished, it sounds lovely. Season theatre tickets.. gah, just a little jealous.

And there we have it from a DCUM snob. You snobs don't know how good you have it. Maybe you should go to flyover country you belittle and see how the middle class really lives.

I wasn't being sarcastic... I meant it. Geez.

SORRY!! So many people are dumping on $100,000 earners as barely scrapping by that I misread your comment. Thanks for the nice feedback - and again, apologies!

That's okay! I understand totally- it's hard to convey sarcasm online so sometimes when someone actually comes along and means it, it looks like fakeness. I have an earnest way of speaking too so it's not the first time. But I truly think what you've accomplished is great and, from one single lady to another, you're living the dream, single, amazing trips to Europe, going to the sympathy... life goals. I'm in my 20s, so hopefully I will be there one day. Sounds a lot better than changing diapers and putting up with a sex crazed DH who doesn't do jack around the house, I'll tell you that much!

Thanks. I hope you come back to read this. Yup....my 20s were fun, but hard work and not a lot of money. (Those were the dumpy apartment years.)

But by my mid-30s, I was earning close to $80,000, when I bought the little condo and started traveling - Europe, Greek Islands, etc. By my late 30s, I was at $100,000, and bought the nice townhouse, upped the travel (sometimes with a friend, sometimes on my own), went to all sorts of black-tie fundraisers, tickets to the ballet and symphony, and just a generally nice life.

And you will be there one day, too! (And looking back, the time goes really quickly.) have fun on the journey.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:200k in the DC area is "very affluent"?

LOL, what are you smoking?

Yes it is

Seriously, what is it? It's obviously some good stuff, I want some.

you mean to tell me that an individual earning over $200,000 isn't very affluent? I earn half that and I'm very comfortable.

Yes, I do. And a family making $400k isn't either. Welcome to DC.

You are completely out of touch with reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:200k in the DC area is "very affluent"?

LOL, what are you smoking?

Yes it is

Seriously, what is it? It's obviously some good stuff, I want some.

you mean to tell me that an individual earning over $200,000 isn't very affluent? I earn half that and I'm very comfortable.

Yes, I do. And a family making $400k isn't either. Welcome to DC.

Then should I cancel my summer river cruise to Amsterdam? Apparently, that's for affluent people, and I only earn $110,000. I'm beginning to think you are all a bunch of spoiled 30-somethings who never learned what it feels like to "make do."

For example, I grew up in an UMC home. But when I graduated from college, all I could afford was a dumpy apartment. It was quite a let-down from the beautiful house I grew up in, but hey....that's life, and I was only earning $45,000. (All figures translated to today's dollars.) Then I moved up the ladder and started earning $75,000, at which time I bought a teensy condo. Several years later, I got bumped to $100,000, and bought a nice townhouse out in the suburbs. Still had plenty left for international travel, season theater tickets, clubhouse level at Nationals games, a bi-weekly maid, etc. Definitely upper-middle class.

But it's because I started out in the dumpy apartment at $45,000 that I appreciate how upscale one's lifestyle can be on $100,000. I suspect some of you bitching about $400,000 being middle class came out of law school to a $150,000 salary and don't have a clue what TRUE middle class is.

OK, point taken. Congrats on what you've accomplished, it sounds lovely. Season theatre tickets.. gah, just a little jealous.

And there we have it from a DCUM snob. You snobs don't know how good you have it. Maybe you should go to flyover country you belittle and see how the middle class really lives.

I wasn't being sarcastic... I meant it. Geez.

SORRY!! So many people are dumping on $100,000 earners as barely scrapping by that I misread your comment. Thanks for the nice feedback - and again, apologies!

That's okay! I understand totally- it's hard to convey sarcasm online so sometimes when someone actually comes along and means it, it looks like fakeness. I have an earnest way of speaking too so it's not the first time. But I truly think what you've accomplished is great and, from one single lady to another, you're living the dream, single, amazing trips to Europe, going to the sympathy... life goals. I'm in my 20s, so hopefully I will be there one day. Sounds a lot better than changing diapers and putting up with a sex crazed DH who doesn't do jack around the house, I'll tell you that much!

What an oddly specific post. Not every married person is pulling her hair out while dealing with diapers and a lazy, sex crazed DH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:200k in the DC area is "very affluent"?

LOL, what are you smoking?

Yes it is

Seriously, what is it? It's obviously some good stuff, I want some.

you mean to tell me that an individual earning over $200,000 isn't very affluent? I earn half that and I'm very comfortable.

Yes, I do. And a family making $400k isn't either. Welcome to DC.

Then should I cancel my summer river cruise to Amsterdam? Apparently, that's for affluent people, and I only earn $110,000. I'm beginning to think you are all a bunch of spoiled 30-somethings who never learned what it feels like to "make do."

For example, I grew up in an UMC home. But when I graduated from college, all I could afford was a dumpy apartment. It was quite a let-down from the beautiful house I grew up in, but hey....that's life, and I was only earning $45,000. (All figures translated to today's dollars.) Then I moved up the ladder and started earning $75,000, at which time I bought a teensy condo. Several years later, I got bumped to $100,000, and bought a nice townhouse out in the suburbs. Still had plenty left for international travel, season theater tickets, clubhouse level at Nationals games, a bi-weekly maid, etc. Definitely upper-middle class.

But it's because I started out in the dumpy apartment at $45,000 that I appreciate how upscale one's lifestyle can be on $100,000. I suspect some of you bitching about $400,000 being middle class came out of law school to a $150,000 salary and don't have a clue what TRUE middle class is.

OK, point taken. Congrats on what you've accomplished, it sounds lovely. Season theatre tickets.. gah, just a little jealous.

And there we have it from a DCUM snob. You snobs don't know how good you have it. Maybe you should go to flyover country you belittle and see how the middle class really lives.

I wasn't being sarcastic... I meant it. Geez.

SORRY!! So many people are dumping on $100,000 earners as barely scrapping by that I misread your comment. Thanks for the nice feedback - and again, apologies!

That's okay! I understand totally- it's hard to convey sarcasm online so sometimes when someone actually comes along and means it, it looks like fakeness. I have an earnest way of speaking too so it's not the first time. But I truly think what you've accomplished is great and, from one single lady to another, you're living the dream, single, amazing trips to Europe, going to the sympathy... life goals. I'm in my 20s, so hopefully I will be there one day. Sounds a lot better than changing diapers and putting up with a sex crazed DH who doesn't do jack around the house, I'll tell you that much!

What an oddly specific post. Not every married person is pulling her hair out while dealing with diapers and a lazy, sex crazed DH.

NP -- but you sound defensive. I don't think PP said ALL married people are miserable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:100K in dc is not upper middle. Your numbers are off by a fact or two or more. (maybe not at the low end)

But it also depends on how you define the attributes of the classes. I do not like defining status based on income.

According to your chart, I am affluent. I do not feel affluent. I am comfortable, but only because my house was purchased in 1999.

HHI of about 195K, family of three. We can not take nice vacations. But, we always have decent food on the table, drive reliable and safe cars (not luxury), and the house is cool (A/C). I have to think about money, but do not worry about it. There is always enough to pay the bills. And I am on target for retirement savings.

To me, that is middle to upper middle.

what's your definition of nice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rich is net worth. Income certainly can be conducive to net worth, but it is not the same as net worth. Don't talk to me about incomes and 'rich.' Rich is assets.

This brings us to the great trouble underlying the conversation -- financial planning and expectations. Many people in the 80 to 99.5 income bracket may like they are on treadmill because they are spending most of the their incomes. Being on a treadmill doesn't make you middle class. However, it does put you in a precarious position.

Although there are many expenditures that feel justifiable and are, in fact, very nice, the fact is that a lot of us are trading our ability to be debt-free or to build actual wealth ... despite the fact that many of us make more than almost everyone else in the country or even in our high-cost region. This is a larger, cultural problem. I know I'm at least partway captive to it.

Bingo. We live in a nice house but one of the most modest on our street. We drive seven and eight year old cars. Kids go to public school. Spend about 3% of our income on vacations. No debt. We save about 1/3 of our gross income because we know the corporate gravy train doesn't last forever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:200k in the DC area is "very affluent"?

LOL, what are you smoking?

Yes it is

Seriously, what is it? It's obviously some good stuff, I want some.

you mean to tell me that an individual earning over $200,000 isn't very affluent? I earn half that and I'm very comfortable.

Yes, I do. And a family making $400k isn't either. Welcome to DC.

Then should I cancel my summer river cruise to Amsterdam? Apparently, that's for affluent people, and I only earn $110,000. I'm beginning to think you are all a bunch of spoiled 30-somethings who never learned what it feels like to "make do."

For example, I grew up in an UMC home. But when I graduated from college, all I could afford was a dumpy apartment. It was quite a let-down from the beautiful house I grew up in, but hey....that's life, and I was only earning $45,000. (All figures translated to today's dollars.) Then I moved up the ladder and started earning $75,000, at which time I bought a teensy condo. Several years later, I got bumped to $100,000, and bought a nice townhouse out in the suburbs. Still had plenty left for international travel, season theater tickets, clubhouse level at Nationals games, a bi-weekly maid, etc. Definitely upper-middle class.

But it's because I started out in the dumpy apartment at $45,000 that I appreciate how upscale one's lifestyle can be on $100,000. I suspect some of you bitching about $400,000 being middle class came out of law school to a $150,000 salary and don't have a clue what TRUE middle class is.

OK, point taken. Congrats on what you've accomplished, it sounds lovely. Season theatre tickets.. gah, just a little jealous.

And there we have it from a DCUM snob. You snobs don't know how good you have it. Maybe you should go to flyover country you belittle and see how the middle class really lives.

I wasn't being sarcastic... I meant it. Geez.

SORRY!! So many people are dumping on $100,000 earners as barely scrapping by that I misread your comment. Thanks for the nice feedback - and again, apologies!

That's okay! I understand totally- it's hard to convey sarcasm online so sometimes when someone actually comes along and means it, it looks like fakeness. I have an earnest way of speaking too so it's not the first time. But I truly think what you've accomplished is great and, from one single lady to another, you're living the dream, single, amazing trips to Europe, going to the sympathy... life goals. I'm in my 20s, so hopefully I will be there one day. Sounds a lot better than changing diapers and putting up with a sex crazed DH who doesn't do jack around the house, I'll tell you that much!

Thanks. I hope you come back to read this. Yup....my 20s were fun, but hard work and not a lot of money. (Those were the dumpy apartment years.)

But by my mid-30s, I was earning close to $80,000, when I bought the little condo and started traveling - Europe, Greek Islands, etc. By my late 30s, I was at $100,000, and bought the nice townhouse, upped the travel (sometimes with a friend, sometimes on my own), went to all sorts of black-tie fundraisers, tickets to the ballet and symphony, and just a generally nice life.

And you will be there one day, too! (And looking back, the time goes really quickly.) have fun on the journey.

How much has your net worth gone up since you started spending like that in your mid 30s?

[Anonymous]

^NP. Obnoxious question

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:200k in the DC area is "very affluent"?

LOL, what are you smoking?

Yes it is

Seriously, what is it? It's obviously some good stuff, I want some.

you mean to tell me that an individual earning over $200,000 isn't very affluent? I earn half that and I'm very comfortable.

Yes, I do. And a family making $400k isn't either. Welcome to DC.

Then should I cancel my summer river cruise to Amsterdam? Apparently, that's for affluent people, and I only earn $110,000. I'm beginning to think you are all a bunch of spoiled 30-somethings who never learned what it feels like to "make do."

For example, I grew up in an UMC home. But when I graduated from college, all I could afford was a dumpy apartment. It was quite a let-down from the beautiful house I grew up in, but hey....that's life, and I was only earning $45,000. (All figures translated to today's dollars.) Then I moved up the ladder and started earning $75,000, at which time I bought a teensy condo. Several years later, I got bumped to $100,000, and bought a nice townhouse out in the suburbs. Still had plenty left for international travel, season theater tickets, clubhouse level at Nationals games, a bi-weekly maid, etc. Definitely upper-middle class.

But it's because I started out in the dumpy apartment at $45,000 that I appreciate how upscale one's lifestyle can be on $100,000. I suspect some of you bitching about $400,000 being middle class came out of law school to a $150,000 salary and don't have a clue what TRUE middle class is.

OK, point taken. Congrats on what you've accomplished, it sounds lovely. Season theatre tickets.. gah, just a little jealous.

And there we have it from a DCUM snob. You snobs don't know how good you have it. Maybe you should go to flyover country you belittle and see how the middle class really lives.

I wasn't being sarcastic... I meant it. Geez.

SORRY!! So many people are dumping on $100,000 earners as barely scrapping by that I misread your comment. Thanks for the nice feedback - and again, apologies!

That's okay! I understand totally- it's hard to convey sarcasm online so sometimes when someone actually comes along and means it, it looks like fakeness. I have an earnest way of speaking too so it's not the first time. But I truly think what you've accomplished is great and, from one single lady to another, you're living the dream, single, amazing trips to Europe, going to the sympathy... life goals. I'm in my 20s, so hopefully I will be there one day. Sounds a lot better than changing diapers and putting up with a sex crazed DH who doesn't do jack around the house, I'll tell you that much!

What an oddly specific post. Not every married person is pulling her hair out while dealing with diapers and a lazy, sex crazed DH.

NP -- but you sound defensive. I don't think PP said ALL married people are miserable.

I read that as a reference to the DCUM complaints of married women about their husbands and kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rich is net worth. Income certainly can be conducive to net worth, but it is not the same as net worth. Don't talk to me about incomes and 'rich.' Rich is assets.

That's ridiculous. So someone who makes $1M per year, but spends it all is not rich.

There are several very wealthy athletes and Hollywood celebrities who end up with virtually nothing because they spend it frivolously. That doesn't mean they weren't rich.