recurrent chemical pregnancies with genetically tested embryos in IVF?

[Anonymous]

OP here: one issue with mine is that they were all frozen after DC #1. then i thawed them all, biopsied, froze them, and then re-froze them. then thawed a second time. my RE SWEARS that this doesnt really impact implantation potential, but part of me feels like maybe theyve been compromised? 3/4 of them chemical pregnancies and theyre PGS normal?

[Anonymous]

Oh and yes, out of frozens. We only got two in our latest round at 36 (got 6 when I was 33 during our first round, of which two became babies).

[Anonymous]

OP, I don't know. I can understand why you would think that although who knows. How many do you have left? (Still 15:48 here).

[Anonymous]

I have 2 CGH normal left - they're bottom of the barrel in terms of "beauty contest" like one was a day 6 and one was a 3CB grade and their thaw wasn't as good during the biopsy (one only had 80 percent cell survival whereas my others had more like 95/100) so.... they're not pick of litter. But they're CGH normal and embryologist thought worth freezing obviously. So I have those 2 CGH frozen or just do a fresh cycle

[Anonymous]

15:48 PP again. Hmm. I guess I would do those first and then if they don't work, a fresh cycle. Are they recommending a single or double transfer with those? Were all the embryos that you produced in that round PGS normal?

I would also get a second and third opinion from other doctors so you feel like you have a fuller picture of what might be going on. And report back! I'll update on what happens with us. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Def would not do a double transfer because I already have 2 kids and don't want twins.

Of the first round of embryos, 6/7 were CGH normal. I had 6 CGH normals. I transferred 2 of them to get my second child, first try was a chemical, second was my second child. Now I transferred 2 more and have had back to back chemical pregnancies.

[Anonymous]

15:48 PP again. Ugh that is super frustrating.

If you've had 3 chemicals with normal embryos from the same batch, it sounds to me as though there may some other issue that can't yet be tested for with the embryos (not chromosomal). I think I remember my RE saying that sometimes there is a problem with the cells that become the placenta, rather than the cells that become the baby, and we can't test for that yet.

If it were me I would grit my teeth and just go through two more transfers with the last two frozen ones, to give them a chance - they might work. I would also mentally prepare myself for a new fresh round.

The fact that you've had two babies successfully suggests that it may be a numbers game and just a question of keeping going until you get lucky. I know this process isn't fun though.

[Anonymous]

Thanks so much for the advice 15:48 PP. you are really considerate to be so supportive.

yes, I've had 3 chemicals with this batch, but this batch also produced my daughter, who is perfection, so they clearly aren't ALL bad. And these are the same retrievals as the ones that produced my son (there were 2 retrievals, I can't remember which one is from which one).

Debating whether to go down the rabbit hole of consulting the immunological factors and getting all that testing done.

and yes, it is a numbers game to some extent in that even if I do have an immunological problem or something, it doesn't mean the chances are 0, it just means theyre less. it could be that the 2 kids I have are more exceptions than the rule, and that my chances are just lower.

and yes, I will DEFINITELY mentally prepare for the other 2 frozen to not work, after what I've been through so far. doesn't mean i won't be disappointed, but prepared

[Anonymous]

OP, let us know what happens. I have a good feeling for you. So much of this is stamina. And cost of course. Hang in there.

[Anonymous]

OP here checking back in. So I went through my last 2 frozen. 1 didnt survive the thaw, and so we transferred the last one. BFN. So that's 2 chemicals and 1 BFN all with CGH normal tested embryos.

Also, I got the immune testing done and had slightly elevated TNF alpha levels, and used prednisone and intralipids on this last FET, which was the BFN. so prednisone and intralipids weren't the trick.

I have to start a fresh cycle now.

I don't know what to think because I had 2 kids before, but I also just went through SIX CGH normal embryos to yield 1 live birth (3 chemicals, 1 BFN, one didnt thaw, and 1 live birth).

However, all 6 of those embryos were thawed, biopsied, re-frozen, and re-thawed. Maybe success rates are lower when that happens?

Trying to muster the energy to keep going. We really want a third, but this has been a lot of stuff. I saw a post the other day of a lady contemplating IVF for her third- I read the responses. It's a lot to go through - luckily we have insurance coverage for a fresh, but emotional and logistically it's a lot.

[Anonymous]

OP - I am the earlier PP whose story matches yours closely (2 live births although first son was a neonatal death due to a VCI rupture just before full term birth, one mc, two BFNs, three chemicals of which two were tested normal pregnancies). I am sorry to hear latest FET was a bust.

Here's how I see it. IVF is a numbers game. I would do a new fresh cycle and not bother to test (given that 6 of your 7 embryos last time were normal). Try some meditation CDs during the cycle. You are in a good place - you are young, you have insurance, you know you can carry babies to term - you have done it twice.

I just did a fresh transfer (my 9th transfer) and it seems so far to have worked (got positive beta yesterday). I feel like fresh transfers suit me better and as 2 out of 2 of my previous cycle's tested blasts were normal, I didn't bother testing this time. I just wanted to do the cycle ASAP as my insurance runs out in April, and I meditated with an IVF visualization CD to help with anxiety.

You can do this. Hang in there, breathe, and try to see this as a fresh start. I know it is grueling and miserable and emotionally exhausting but if you want it I don't see any reason why you shouldn't have another healthy child.

[Anonymous]

PP, you're SO nice to respond again. Congrats on your positive beta yesterday! For me, the fresh transfers didnt work well. I had fluid in my uterus on both fresh cycles (like mucus, they had to aspirate it at retrieval), and my estrogen levels were SUPER crazy high both times, so I think a FET is a better way to transfer for me. Also keep in mind the 6/7 CGH normals were six years ago. I am relatively young, but I am likely to have more abnormals at my age?!?

I will ask my RE when I follow up with him this week whether it's worth transferring 1 on a fresh cycle. I would hate to transfer 1 just to save myself 1 month, and then have a 10 week miscarriage due to a chromosomal abnormality, ya know?

When you say numbers game, you mean if you throw enough spaghetti at the wall something will stick? I am just worried there's something wrong with ME.

I forgot to mention I also had a hysteroscopy to repair scar tissue after pregnancy #1 before I got pregnant with my second (found adhesions when preparing for FET for baby #2, fixed them, went on to conceive baby #2). Did a saline sonogram before trying for baby #3 because RE suspected I may have adhesions again.

So part of me wonders whether my uterus is just f$$^d up. Then again, we did a follow up saline sono after my surgery, all looked good, and my lining has been ok on these cycles. ARGH!

So PP, this will be baby #2 for you, as your first was the neonatal death?)... I am so so happy for you. How old is your son?

[Anonymous]

Thanks OP. Fingers crossed. My second son is 19 months, his older brother (from same IVF batch) would be three now if he'd lived longer than a day. There was exactly 17 months between their birthdays. Thanks for your congrats and I really hope I'm not being insensitive - I just wanted to give you some encouragement as I really think it's going to work for you like it has for me (touch wood).

Yes to spaghetti sticking theory, basically. Plus not messing around with the embryos so much. Yeah there prob is a higher likelihood of non-normal embryos at 36. But not THAT high. My last round I was 36 and both blasts that time were normal. This time I produced 4 blasts (at a different clinic) and transferred one fresh. Am 37. No PGS and no ICSI. Hope it works out!

I understand your fear, especially if FETs work better for you. That makes sense to do an FET then. But PGS can't rule out chemicals and mcs (as you and I have shown!). I don't think there's something wrong with you. I just don't have that gut feeling about your situation. I do think that freezing, thawing, biopsying and refreezing, then thawing, must take a toll on embryos. I know they say it doesn't but I can't see how it wouldn't have some effect. So maybe in your next round (a) focus on eating well and resting and meditating with a guided meditation CD to help manage the anxiety (this really helped me) and (b) do the testing then and there if you're going to do it, to avoid the thaw refreezing stuff. Or skip the testing and take a chance.

[Anonymous]

OP here: yes, I would definitely test on a fresh cycle on the day 5 blasts (hoping there are some!), and then freeze once.

Or I could transfer 1 blindly, test the rest, freeze those. Will see what my RE recommends, but I think he prefers to test.

and PGS testing CAN rule out chemicals and miscarriages, to the extent that the miscarriage rate with NGS tested embryos is like 3% and it's like 30% for my age. Most miscarriages are due to chromsomonal abnormalities, so you eliminate those. I think my chemicals is more due either to the stress on the embryos (as you said), or maybe immune/uterine receptivity issues on my end.


you are NOT being insensitive! after what you're been through you deserve, as does anyone, but certainly you, an easy BFP!

what meditation CD did you use? I tried one of those back when I did the fresh before DC #1, and I didnt really buy them that much. I find that works best is just a ton of distraction. and the 2 kids I have really helps keep me grounded. Gives me perspective.

Did you have any symptoms during this 2WW that you knew you were pregnant? This is my first BFN in a long time, and I am trying to sort of notice whether I think there's much different in terms of cramps, sore breasts, etc. in the 2WW.

I also think a fresh cycle without a 2 WW may be less stressful than a fresh cycle with a 2WW. If I am freezing and testing them.

[Anonymous]

I used one by this lady: http://www.anjionline.com/pages/InfertilityMeditationDownloads.html - I used the 'imagery and meditation to support an IVF cycle'. You can download it or you can buy the CD off Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Imagery-Meditations-Support-Vitro-Fertilization/dp/B000FOT8CC

I also tried a Circle + Bloom frozen embryo transfer meditation CD set: https://circlebloom.com/frozen-embryo-transfer-program/

Friends sent both of these CDs to me after they had used them, which was really nice. I would send them to you but have promised to pass them to other IF friends!
I usually fell asleep listening to them at the end of the day, when otherwise I would be lying in bed with my mind racing. Sometimes I did a Korean sheet mask at the same time, ha. No real symptoms. Everyone is different in that regard though. I know some women 'know' - I am not one of them.

My doc said ten per cent chance of mc or chemical with a PGS normal embryo.