As tuition continues to climb in price = easier to get into?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a lot of aid out there for middle to upper middle class students. So much so that for the vast majority of this country, Ivy league schools and most in the top 25 are quite inexpensive due to their financial aid.

I do think the $$$$ schools that cannot afford to give generous financial aid will suffer, but that does not describe most of the top universities.

Actually, for families with HHIs >$200k, there is little or no aid at top tier schools.

That is why so many of us are turning to state schools and private schools that award merit aid.

+1

So true. DH and I are Ivy grads who can't afford to send our kids to our alma maters. We're limiting our DC's college options to in-state or less selective privates that offer generous merit aid.

The PP who said eliminate college loans is spot-on. That's the key. College debt is insane. Younger colleagues who are saddled with huge debt can barely function.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would put Fordham in the category of schools that are so expensive that no one applies and then they have to take anyone that can afford to pay the tuition. Probably urban schools like UCLA, NYU. GW.

# of applicants in 2015

NYU - 60,000
GWU - 25,000
Fordham - 41,000

According to their website, the number of NYU applications received was not only the largest ever, but also the largest increase year-to-year since 1999.

maybe you and I have different definitions of "no one applies"?

These explosions in application numbers have to do with demographics. These applicants are the children of the post WWII baby boom. After these kids are done, there will be a smaller applicant pool. Some less competitive colleges will close their doors or lower their price. They will have to.

But there will always be enough wealthy people to send their kids to the elite colleges, so no, they will not become easier to get into. Middle class kids will go to public colleges. Middle class kids are already priced out of the colleges that don't offer merit aid, including all the elite colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would put Fordham in the category of schools that are so expensive that no one applies and then they have to take anyone that can afford to pay the tuition. Probably urban schools like UCLA, NYU. GW.

# of applicants in 2015

NYU - 60,000
GWU - 25,000
Fordham - 41,000

According to their website, the number of NYU applications received was not only the largest ever, but also the largest increase year-to-year since 1999.

maybe you and I have different definitions of "no one applies"?

These explosions in application numbers have to do with demographics. These applicants are the children of the post WWII baby boom. After these kids are done, there will be a smaller applicant pool. Some less competitive colleges will close their doors or lower their price. They will have to.

But there will always be enough wealthy people to send their kids to the elite colleges, so no, they will not become easier to get into. Middle class kids will go to public colleges. Middle class kids are already priced out of the colleges that don't offer merit aid, including all the elite colleges.

Not even remotely true. Middle class families generally pay LESS at the elite colleges than they would at state schools. (Unless you're one of those loons who thinks $250k/year is middle class.) At Harvard, for example, up to $150K you'll pay 10% of your income. If you make less than $65K, you go for free.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thread on the easiest prestigious schools to get into made me think about this, especially for American students. The most expensive private schools are now around $ 60-65k all in. Let's assume this trend continues over the next 15 years with schools topping out around $85-90k a year, maybe even closer to $100k, how many Americans will be able to afford that? Do you think schools will have fewer students competing for admittance simply because they can't afford to pay even 50%?

I know rich international students will always be in the background. But American schools can't afford to fill ~ 50% or more of their freshman classes with foreigners just in terms of the optics. Simply put, it'll look bad.

Just curious if you think elite private education will go back to being a luxury for the wealthy in the way it was before WWII.

An elite education is already a luxury for the wealthy, but it's also available to the poor and talented, who qualify for FA.

Before WWII, smart kids who were poor got scholarships. That's how my grandfather ended up at Yale. Middle class kids went to public schools or didn't go to college.

An elite education is not available today to middle class kids.

Not true whatsoever. Elite institutions are extremely affordable for the middle class. We make $150K (which is hardly even middle class) and my child goes to an elite school for LESS than what we would have paid at UMD.

It is time to do some research and see what aid is really out there before you go spouting lies.

This is true. From Harvard's website:

20% of our parents have total incomes less than $65,000 and are not expected to contribute.
Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances. Families at all income levels who have significant assets will continue to pay more than those in less fortunate circumstances.
Home equity and retirement assets are not considered in our assessment of financial need.

Although this won't apply to you if you're one of those loons who thinks making $250K is middle class.

+1. There is a lot of misinformation out there about the cost of elite colleges. 60% of students there receive aid and the average package is $44000.

[Anonymous]

No one here is arguing that $250K is middle class. They're saying that even that crazy high income is not enough to pay $60k/year/kid out of pocket. Now if you've been making $250K consistently since your 18yo was an infant and also correctly predicted the cost of college 18 years in the future, then maybe you've got $240K saved up per kid. Otherwise, even though you're in the top 5% of HHI, it will still be tight for you.

This state of affairs is completely insane and the culprit is obviously the student loan system combined with exploding administrative budgets. The administrator grift has been working til now because there can be no secure middle class life without a college degree, but now stagnant wage growth + skyrocketing tuition is making the grift unsustainable. I have no idea how this can be fixed but something clearly has to give.

I'm sure someone's going to respond to this post telling me how they saved $500K per kid on a HHI of $50K all by careful budgeting and prioritizing. Or saying "just go to a state school!!11" as if those are much cheaper these days. Or that "you can make a great living in the trades if you're not too snobby to get your hands dirty!!1" That's not the point. The point is that under no circumstances should any college degree cost as much as a freaking house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one here is arguing that $250K is middle class. They're saying that even that crazy high income is not enough to pay $60k/year/kid out of pocket. Now if you've been making $250K consistently since your 18yo was an infant and also correctly predicted the cost of college 18 years in the future, then maybe you've got $240K saved up per kid. Otherwise, even though you're in the top 5% of HHI, it will still be tight for you.

This state of affairs is completely insane and the culprit is obviously the student loan system combined with exploding administrative budgets. The administrator grift has been working til now because there can be no secure middle class life without a college degree, but now stagnant wage growth + skyrocketing tuition is making the grift unsustainable. I have no idea how this can be fixed but something clearly has to give.

I'm sure someone's going to respond to this post telling me how they saved $500K per kid on a HHI of $50K all by careful budgeting and prioritizing. Or saying "just go to a state school!!11" as if those are much cheaper these days. Or that "you can make a great living in the trades if you're not too snobby to get your hands dirty!!1" That's not the point. The point is that under no circumstances should any college degree cost as much as a freaking house.

It costs more than the average house in DC, which is $405k. Half the homes in DC cost less than a college education. Most people need a 40 year loan to pay for their house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Little to no effect. First, student loans are easy to get and "cheap" money (interest rate-wise). Second, at most costly universities, 50-75% of American students receive some form of financial aid. So, the percentage of American students actually paying the full price is rather low, and they can probably afford it. At most universities, admissions is need-blind.
N
(Non-Americans are not eligible for financial aid.)

This is awfully naive. While loans are easy to get, who wants to owe $300,000 coming out of college? That is equivalent to a mortgage on a house. How is a young person supposed to pay back that kind of loan and buy a house and put their own kids through college. Also, most schools are NOT need blind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one here is arguing that $250K is middle class. They're saying that even that crazy high income is not enough to pay $60k/year/kid out of pocket. Now if you've been making $250K consistently since your 18yo was an infant and also correctly predicted the cost of college 18 years in the future, then maybe you've got $240K saved up per kid. Otherwise, even though you're in the top 5% of HHI, it will still be tight for you.

This state of affairs is completely insane and the culprit is obviously the student loan system combined with exploding administrative budgets. The administrator grift has been working til now because there can be no secure middle class life without a college degree, but now stagnant wage growth + skyrocketing tuition is making the grift unsustainable. I have no idea how this can be fixed but something clearly has to give.

I'm sure someone's going to respond to this post telling me how they saved $500K per kid on a HHI of $50K all by careful budgeting and prioritizing. Or saying "just go to a state school!!11" as if those are much cheaper these days. Or that "you can make a great living in the trades if you're not too snobby to get your hands dirty!!1" That's not the point. The point is that under no circumstances should any college degree cost as much as a freaking house.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would put Fordham in the category of schools that are so expensive that no one applies and then they have to take anyone that can afford to pay the tuition. Probably urban schools like UCLA, NYU. GW.

# of applicants in 2015

NYU - 60,000
GWU - 25,000
Fordham - 41,000

According to their website, the number of NYU applications received was not only the largest ever, but also the largest increase year-to-year since 1999.

maybe you and I have different definitions of "no one applies"?

These explosions in application numbers have to do with demographics. These applicants are the children of the post WWII baby boom. After these kids are done, there will be a smaller applicant pool. Some less competitive colleges will close their doors or lower their price. They will have to.

But there will always be enough wealthy people to send their kids to the elite colleges, so no, they will not become easier to get into. Middle class kids will go to public colleges. Middle class kids are already priced out of the colleges that don't offer merit aid, including all the elite colleges.

Not even remotely true. Middle class families generally pay LESS at the elite colleges than they would at state schools. (Unless you're one of those loons who thinks $250k/year is middle class.) At Harvard, for example, up to $150K you'll pay 10% of your income. If you make less than $65K, you go for free.

Surely this depends on your definition of "middle class." I doubt anyone with an HHI of $65K thinks of themselves as "middle class" unless they are single. A family of four living on $65K is perilously close to the poverty line.

Harvard is not a good example to use in this case. It has an exceptionally large endowment and it offers the most generous FA of any college. Most people with an HHI of $150 (which is lower middle class in this area) will only be eligible for loans at most private colleges.

You'd have to give an example to back up your statement that middle class (however you define MC) families pay less at elite colleges than they would at state schools. I find that statement unlikely to be true except, possibly, at HYPS, and even then, I really wonder if its possible. OOS public college costs are nearly as high as private colleges, but in-state tuition is pretty hard to beat anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would put Fordham in the category of schools that are so expensive that no one applies and then they have to take anyone that can afford to pay the tuition. Probably urban schools like UCLA, NYU. GW.

# of applicants in 2015

NYU - 60,000
GWU - 25,000
Fordham - 41,000

According to their website, the number of NYU applications received was not only the largest ever, but also the largest increase year-to-year since 1999.

maybe you and I have different definitions of "no one applies"?

These explosions in application numbers have to do with demographics. These applicants are the children of the post WWII baby boom. After these kids are done, there will be a smaller applicant pool. Some less competitive colleges will close their doors or lower their price. They will have to.

But there will always be enough wealthy people to send their kids to the elite colleges, so no, they will not become easier to get into. Middle class kids will go to public colleges. Middle class kids are already priced out of the colleges that don't offer merit aid, including all the elite colleges.

Not even remotely true. Middle class families generally pay LESS at the elite colleges than they would at state schools. (Unless you're one of those loons who thinks $250k/year is middle class.) At Harvard, for example, up to $150K you'll pay 10% of your income. If you make less than $65K, you go for free.

Surely this depends on your definition of "middle class." I doubt anyone with an HHI of $65K thinks of themselves as "middle class" unless they are single. A family of four living on $65K is perilously close to the poverty line.

Harvard is not a good example to use in this case. It has an exceptionally large endowment and it offers the most generous FA of any college. Most people with an HHI of $150 (which is lower middle class in this area) will only be eligible for loans at most private colleges.

You'd have to give an example to back up your statement that middle class (however you define MC) families pay less at elite colleges than they would at state schools. I find that statement unlikely to be true except, possibly, at HYPS, and even then, I really wonder if its possible. OOS public college costs are nearly as high as private colleges, but in-state tuition is pretty hard to beat anywhere.

Check the common data sets. Really, this information is easy to find, I'm not going to do the work for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would put Fordham in the category of schools that are so expensive that no one applies and then they have to take anyone that can afford to pay the tuition. Probably urban schools like UCLA, NYU. GW.

# of applicants in 2015

NYU - 60,000
GWU - 25,000
Fordham - 41,000

According to their website, the number of NYU applications received was not only the largest ever, but also the largest increase year-to-year since 1999.

maybe you and I have different definitions of "no one applies"?

These explosions in application numbers have to do with demographics. These applicants are the children of the post WWII baby boom. After these kids are done, there will be a smaller applicant pool. Some less competitive colleges will close their doors or lower their price. They will have to.

But there will always be enough wealthy people to send their kids to the elite colleges, so no, they will not become easier to get into. Middle class kids will go to public colleges. Middle class kids are already priced out of the colleges that don't offer merit aid, including all the elite colleges.

Not even remotely true. Middle class families generally pay LESS at the elite colleges than they would at state schools. (Unless you're one of those loons who thinks $250k/year is middle class.) At Harvard, for example, up to $150K you'll pay 10% of your income. If you make less than $65K, you go for free.

Surely this depends on your definition of "middle class." I doubt anyone with an HHI of $65K thinks of themselves as "middle class" unless they are single. A family of four living on $65K is perilously close to the poverty line.

Harvard is not a good example to use in this case. It has an exceptionally large endowment and it offers the most generous FA of any college. Most people with an HHI of $150 (which is lower middle class in this area) will only be eligible for loans at most private colleges.

You'd have to give an example to back up your statement that middle class (however you define MC) families pay less at elite colleges than they would at state schools. I find that statement unlikely to be true except, possibly, at HYPS, and even then, I really wonder if its possible. OOS public college costs are nearly as high as private colleges, but in-state tuition is pretty hard to beat anywhere.

This is true:
Most people with an HHI of $150...will only be eligible for loans at most private colleges.

This is not even remotely close to true:
$150 (which is lower middle class in this area)

[Anonymous]

Truly middle class people often can pay less at well-endowed privates than at in-state publics. But truly middle class is not the same as DCUM "middle" class.

https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/Fam_Inc_SizeofFam1.xls

Median HHI for a family of 4 in DC is ~$90k.

[Anonymous]

^^None of that is even remotely comprehensible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would put Fordham in the category of schools that are so expensive that no one applies and then they have to take anyone that can afford to pay the tuition. Probably urban schools like UCLA, NYU. GW.

# of applicants in 2015

NYU - 60,000
GWU - 25,000
Fordham - 41,000

According to their website, the number of NYU applications received was not only the largest ever, but also the largest increase year-to-year since 1999.

maybe you and I have different definitions of "no one applies"?

These explosions in application numbers have to do with demographics. These applicants are the children of the post WWII baby boom. After these kids are done, there will be a smaller applicant pool. Some less competitive colleges will close their doors or lower their price. They will have to.

But there will always be enough wealthy people to send their kids to the elite colleges, so no, they will not become easier to get into. Middle class kids will go to public colleges. Middle class kids are already priced out of the colleges that don't offer merit aid, including all the elite colleges.

Not even remotely true. Middle class families generally pay LESS at the elite colleges than they would at state schools. (Unless you're one of those loons who thinks $250k/year is middle class.) At Harvard, for example, up to $150K you'll pay 10% of your income. If you make less than $65K, you go for free.

Surely this depends on your definition of "middle class." I doubt anyone with an HHI of $65K thinks of themselves as "middle class" unless they are single. A family of four living on $65K is perilously close to the poverty line.

Harvard is not a good example to use in this case. It has an exceptionally large endowment and it offers the most generous FA of any college. Most people with an HHI of $150 (which is lower middle class in this area) will only be eligible for loans at most private colleges.

You'd have to give an example to back up your statement that middle class (however you define MC) families pay less at elite colleges than they would at state schools. I find that statement unlikely to be true except, possibly, at HYPS, and even then, I really wonder if its possible. OOS public college costs are nearly as high as private colleges, but in-state tuition is pretty hard to beat anywhere.

This is true:
Most people with an HHI of $150...will only be eligible for loans at most private colleges.

This is not even remotely close to true:
$150 (which is lower middle class in this area)

If your house hold income is $150k, then (after taxes) each kid will cost you at least 3 full years of your (combined household) income. So, most people making (a combined household income of ) $150 are priced out of private schools unless they were lucky enough to give birth to a genius with strong motivation and executive functioning skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thread on the easiest prestigious schools to get into made me think about this, especially for American students. The most expensive private schools are now around $ 60-65k all in. Let's assume this trend continues over the next 15 years with schools topping out around $85-90k a year, maybe even closer to $100k, how many Americans will be able to afford that? Do you think schools will have fewer students competing for admittance simply because they can't afford to pay even 50%?

I know rich international students will always be in the background. But American schools can't afford to fill ~ 50% or more of their freshman classes with foreigners just in terms of the optics. Simply put, it'll look bad.

Just curious if you think elite private education will go back to being a luxury for the wealthy in the way it was before WWII.

An elite education is already a luxury for the wealthy, but it's also available to the poor and talented, who qualify for FA.

Before WWII, smart kids who were poor got scholarships. That's how my grandfather ended up at Yale. Middle class kids went to public schools or didn't go to college.

An elite education is not available today to middle class kids.

Not true whatsoever. Elite institutions are extremely affordable for the middle class. We make $150K (which is hardly even middle class) and my child goes to an elite school for LESS than what we would have paid at UMD.

It is time to do some research and see what aid is really out there before you go spouting lies.

This is true. From Harvard's website:

20% of our parents have total incomes less than $65,000 and are not expected to contribute.
Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances. Families at all income levels who have significant assets will continue to pay more than those in less fortunate circumstances.
Home equity and retirement assets are not considered in our assessment of financial need.

Although this won't apply to you if you're one of those loons who thinks making $250K is middle class.

+1. There is a lot of misinformation out there about the cost of elite colleges. 60% of students there receive aid and the average package is $44000.

If the average package is $44000, then what they owe is 4*60-44 = 196k. If this average package goes to the average HHI of 90k, then (ignoring taxes), they would owe two full years of income per child. Most people no way can do that, so they are priced out.