Any other doctors thinking of calling it quits?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes it sound like all the disgruntled physicians are complaining about how little money they make.

I'm married to an internist and the money (or lack there of) is actually the LEAST of the sources of his disastisfaction (and that of pretty much all of his colleagues. What drives physicians out of the profession is the quality of life of the job.
Working like a dog (no lunch breaks, no bathroom breaks) for 60-70 hours a week PLUS nighttime and weekend call. Seeing 25-40 patients a day---many who are disgruntled themselves because they feel the strain of a physician who has been given exactly 5 minutes to see them.

This is the reward of spending $250,000 on a medical school education and 7+ years of training (of 80 hour work weeks).

My husband LOVES medicine but the lifestyle is slowly killing him.

Why is that? Are those hours governed by the practice he works for? Just curious because I know my internist takes lunch (the entire office shuts down for an hour), and they don't have extended hours at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes it sound like all the disgruntled physicians are complaining about how little money they make.

I'm married to an internist and the money (or lack there of) is actually the LEAST of the sources of his disastisfaction (and that of pretty much all of his colleagues. What drives physicians out of the profession is the quality of life of the job.
Working like a dog (no lunch breaks, no bathroom breaks) for 60-70 hours a week PLUS nighttime and weekend call. Seeing 25-40 patients a day---many who are disgruntled themselves because they feel the strain of a physician who has been given exactly 5 minutes to see them.

This is the reward of spending $250,000 on a medical school education and 7+ years of training (of 80 hour work weeks).

My husband LOVES medicine but the lifestyle is slowly killing him.

Why is that? Are those hours governed by the practice he works for? Just curious because I know my internist takes lunch (the entire office shuts down for an hour), and they don't have extended hours at all.

Many doctors are doing paperwork during lunch, calling patients, etc. The lunch hour is mainly for the support staff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Why is that? Are those hours governed by the practice he works for? Just curious because I know my internist takes lunch (the entire office shuts down for an hour), and they don't have extended hours at all.

Like the PP said, the office might take lunch, but mostly the doctor does not. He/She has to catch up on charts, make phone calls, write letters, etc. Also, often times the morning schedule is so packed together, that the morning patients get backed up into the 'lunch hour'. So, he/she spends most of the lunch hour catching up on patients.

[Anonymous]

Previous poster here whose husband is a physician.

During the "lunch hour" (which is a break for staff) he is furiously writing notes on the patients he saw that morning, returing the 20-odd patient phone calls that built up during the morning and following up on the hundred or so bloodwork and or radiology tests he ordered the day before. None of these things can be done during the rest of the day when he see patients.

I can't tell you the last time he actually left his desk during lunch.

[Anonymous]

As part of healthcare reform, I think I read that Obama would like to see govt subsidized tuition for medical school as a way to address the shortage of physicians (seen especially in critical areas like family practice and geriatrics).

[Anonymous]

I would love to see our government subsidize tuition for students studying medicine who plan on becoming general practitioners, internists, and OB-GYNs.

[Anonymous]

OP, to answer your question, I think LOTS of doctors of all types are calling it quits. My dad is doctor and has been practicing for more than 20 years. He still works very long hours, regular night call is a part of his practice, as are weekends. He missed lots of birthdays, holidays, family dinner, etc. I can tell you as the child of a largely absent doctor, I did not feel his absence or suffer from it. I was/am very proud of him. When he was there, he was there. And if he was on call from home and we went somewhere, we took two cars. Some of my fondest family memories are of the times we brought holiday dinners to the hospital for my dad and whatever doctors and nurses were working from his practice. He was/is a great Dad and a fantastic, doting Grandfather. As an adult, I think about how many lives he saved over the years. I have seen him pull people out of cars in a couple of horrible bad accidents (one with car on fire) and treat them until an ambulence crew arrived. Many, many younger doctors over the years, especially women, have told me how much they love my dad and how much he taught them and often remark that he was one of the precious few male physicians to treat them professionally when women were a greater minority in the profession than they are now. Which is my long winded way of saying what I know about him means FAR more to me than having him home for dinner every night. I get that you don't get enough time with your kids and if that is too much, it is too much, but I sure got enough time with my Dad even though he did not get enough time with me.

That all being said, he is looking forward to retirement. Anecdotally, I can say that in the past five to seven years, many of his partners have retired and there are plenty of other doctor friends of his who have hung it up b/c it is just too much of a pain in the ass to deal with insurance payment issues and rising malpractice premiums and the increasing politics of medicine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After realizing that the woman piercing ears at the mall gets more than I do to see some patients, I have had to give this some thought. Seems like all my professional friends make more and have more free time.

Most of the time, I can not "be there" for my kids. Even when they have gone to the ER, my relatives have had to take them.
Each year I work harder, but make less money. Mostly, I am tired because it is a laborious job.
The reforms that are planned might make things worse, and I am afraid that I have no wiggle room.

I have another degree that I could use to get into another industry, so I am lucky that way. Medicine really was a terrible investment, but I might have to move on.

I find this so incredibly whiny that I have little sympathy, OP. Yes, you have a difficult job, but so does my cleaning person, who has no health insurance and works 7 days a week. I think your job is a little more interesting. Or, my friend's husband, a carpenter who has been out of work for 5 months and is so depressed about it his personality is changing. Or my friend the editor who has a PhD from a prestigious university, yet makes under $40K per year for her 12-hour workdays and faces constant pressure to do more else they will turn her into a contract worker with no benefits. Oh, and she's a cancer survivor, so she needs that health insurance, hence she works even harder.

Gee, if you don't like your job, find another one. PPs have noted that you have choices, and a lot of them. Stop whining. And if you went into medicine for the money, shame on you. If the job in the mall piercing ears appeals to you, go for it! Do whatever rings your bell, honey.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After realizing that the woman piercing ears at the mall gets more than I do to see some patients, I have had to give this some thought. Seems like all my professional friends make more and have more free time.

Most of the time, I can not "be there" for my kids. Even when they have gone to the ER, my relatives have had to take them.
Each year I work harder, but make less money. Mostly, I am tired because it is a laborious job.
The reforms that are planned might make things worse, and I am afraid that I have no wiggle room.

I have another degree that I could use to get into another industry, so I am lucky that way. Medicine really was a terrible investment, but I might have to move on.

I find this so incredibly whiny that I have little sympathy, OP. Yes, you have a difficult job, but so does my cleaning person, who has no health insurance and works 7 days a week. I think your job is a little more interesting. Or, my friend's husband, a carpenter who has been out of work for 5 months and is so depressed about it his personality is changing. Or my friend the editor who has a PhD from a prestigious university, yet makes under $40K per year for her 12-hour workdays and faces constant pressure to do more else they will turn her into a contract worker with no benefits. Oh, and she's a cancer survivor, so she needs that health insurance, hence she works even harder.

Gee, if you don't like your job, find another one. PPs have noted that you have choices, and a lot of them. Stop whining. And if you went into medicine for the money, shame on you. If the job in the mall piercing ears appeals to you, go for it! Do whatever rings your bell, honey.

Lots of doctors have cancer too. Many also have no health insurance. BTW, most professionals compare their salaries to other professionals, not carpenters. But while we're on that, the $17 for the vaccine mentioned is a lot less than any carpenter I know would take to drill a hole. My ER visits are less than $150. Try calling an electrician on a weekend. I did, the bill was $500. That was 10 years ago. Plus he did not know what he was doing. He was fresh out of school.

[Anonymous]

PP, your cleaning person probably didn't give up her 20s to beceome a cleaning person. Most of us trained before the 80 hour work week regulations for residents. For the PP whose father is a doc and did not miss him, sounds like you had at least one parent at home. Many of us on this board are moms and most have a husband in a job that's just as demanding, so the hours do become an issue even if you are willing to work them. An MD salary, for the most part, will not pay for a full time nanny.

Anyway, there is hope. I got out - left my "real" job and found part time work (still practicing) on my own terms. No call, fixed hours. I am very happy now. You just have to be willing to move forward with your non-medicine option if you don't find he position you want. You also give up the autonomy of private practice to become an employed physician- not a problem for me but it does irk some.

As for the fee-for-service practices who don't take insurance, they are working just as hard as everyone else, but they get to spend enough time with their patients and practice medicine the way it should be practiced. Good for them!

I don't think OP is whining about money. I think she is drained by working more hours and having less time with patients and more time with paperwork and administrative hassles, then not having a profitable practice (this translates to NO salary for the partners, because the staff and the lease and the cleaning service need to be paid).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I find this so incredibly whiny that I have little sympathy, OP. Yes, you have a difficult job, but so does my cleaning person, who has no health insurance and works 7 days a week. I think your job is a little more interesting. Or, my friend's husband, a carpenter who has been out of work for 5 months and is so depressed about it his personality is changing. Or my friend the editor who has a PhD from a prestigious university, yet makes under $40K per year for her 12-hour workdays and faces constant pressure to do more else they will turn her into a contract worker with no benefits. Oh, and she's a cancer survivor, so she needs that health insurance, hence she works even harder.

Gee, if you don't like your job, find another one. PPs have noted that you have choices, and a lot of them. Stop whining. And if you went into medicine for the money, shame on you. If the job in the mall piercing ears appeals to you, go for it! Do whatever rings your bell, honey.

I have to agree that the OP has some reason to be greatful that she at least has a job. But, after years of college/med school, and the extensive monetary and time investment, doesn't she have the right to expect some job satisfaction?

It's great that she has choices. She's worked hard for them.

And, the PP makes some good points. There are some MDs who are not afforded health insurance either (e.g. independent contractors - which is one of the options another PP posted for the OP to try).

In general, I think this thread demonstrates that something in health care needs to change. The only people benefiting from the current system are the health insurance companies. Not patients, not doctors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not the OP, but cut her some slack. Medical school costs a couple hundred thousand $$$. Not to mention 7 years of school, training, a big chunk of most people's 20s. Why do you assume she was only talking about money?

After investing all that money in time, she has a right to expect she may have a rewarding career and at least be well compensated for the long hours and time away from family. I find it hard to believe you wouldn't expect the same.

I agree completely. Most people go into whatever career they chose to earn a decent salary and get some satisfaction from their work. If you're working and not getting paid, it's called volunteering. Totally different from a career.

Doctors are no different. They work hard and go through years of school expecting to get paid a decent salary after graduation. Same as accountants, lawyers, plumbers, etc.

SOME doctors are no different. But some are, and they are the best of the best. I switched my DC from an upscale practice in Chevy Chase to the medicaid doctor my foster child was seeing. There is a world of difference in their offices -- one is 'decorated' with antiques and filled with light, and the other just has a tiny waiting room with no windows and a bunch of toys (you can guess which is which). The medicaid doctor is by far the best doctor I have EVER been to. He remembers us every time we go into his office, he talks to me at length about both kids. He has charged me $17 for shots for my son, even though he is not on medicaid. He is a great doctor and well-suited to being one, too. He is not rich. Medicine is a caring profession. We as patients can all tell the difference when we have a doctor who is in it for the $ or in it because it is a caring profession. As patients, we all deserve the latter. What that means to a doctor who is in it for the $$ is not my problem.

PP, not all public health docs are good, and not all private docs are bad. Many of the elite private practices do a ton of charity work, but it is not always that obvious. Also, doctors don't have to take a vow of poverty to be good people.
From a time standpoint, doctors should love their children, and love being with their children MORE than patients. That goes for any profession, any parent.
The $17 you paid does not cover the true costs, that is subsidized. That vaccine will save millions of lives. So it is valuable. Most people don't realize how valuable. Again, many people will buy luxuries like trips to arcades, and cable TV, and whiten their teeth before paying for the practical things like vaccines.
I will not work if I am not being paid. I hope all responsible parents think like me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After realizing that the woman piercing ears at the mall gets more than I do to see some patients, I have had to give this some thought. Seems like all my professional friends make more and have more free time.

Most of the time, I can not "be there" for my kids. Even when they have gone to the ER, my relatives have had to take them.
Each year I work harder, but make less money. Mostly, I am tired because it is a laborious job.
The reforms that are planned might make things worse, and I am afraid that I have no wiggle room.

I have another degree that I could use to get into another industry, so I am lucky that way. Medicine really was a terrible investment, but I might have to move on.

I find this so incredibly whiny that I have little sympathy, OP. Yes, you have a difficult job, but so does my cleaning person, who has no health insurance and works 7 days a week. I think your job is a little more interesting. Or, my friend's husband, a carpenter who has been out of work for 5 months and is so depressed about it his personality is changing. Or my friend the editor who has a PhD from a prestigious university, yet makes under $40K per year for her 12-hour workdays and faces constant pressure to do more else they will turn her into a contract worker with no benefits. Oh, and she's a cancer survivor, so she needs that health insurance, hence she works even harder.

Gee, if you don't like your job, find another one. PPs have noted that you have choices, and a lot of them. Stop whining. And if you went into medicine for the money, shame on you. If the job in the mall piercing ears appeals to you, go for it! Do whatever rings your bell, honey.

Nice attitude. Just bc OP wants to make some money or has a better paying job -if you feel so bad, why don't you help your cleaning person out with her bills?- doesn't mean her complaints/venting are any less valid. And, simply changing fields is not always that easy. It can be downright scary making the change. But, I guess it is easier to come on here and condemn her anonymously. Awfully self-righteous, aren't you.

[Anonymous]

There is an opportunity cost that is seldom measured: I know many doctors whose spouses either can't work or work very little. They give up potentially rewarding careers so that the kids have at least one parent at home. That is ridiculous.

In the end, if doctors quit, OK they quit. But what will we do? I know someone who works for med school admissions around here, she has been at it for 35 years. She said that the applicants are very naive, and think that they will have a nice life. More and more, they come from families with no doctors. They are often children of blue collar workers and simply don't have exposure to many professionals to give them advice.

[Anonymous]

I am shocked by how many people jumped down OP's throat. She wasn't asking for sympathy or pity - she was simply posing a question. And she gets accused of being money hungry and not greatful that she doesn't clean houses?

She is just fed up with the lack of options in her field as are many non-dr. moms I know. It would be nice if she had some flexibility and she doesn't have it so she's thinking of changing fields. Don't know why that inspires such wrath.