Are we allowed to say "Islamic terrorists"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

just like all those times wars were waged for God

Are you referring to the Middle Ages or currently?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is your applying what they say about themselves to all other Muslims.

ISIS has been very clear in its propaganda that one of its goals is to erase the "gray area" that exists between Muslims and the West. Communists use to call this "heightening the contradictions". They want to cause Muslims to choose between groups like ISIS and the West and the more that the West demonstrates that it is anti-Islamic, the more likely Muslims will be to choose ISIS. So, all of you who believe that blaming the entire religion is an acceptable or useful strategy are actually playing into the hands of ISIS. I doubt that is what you want to do. The best strategy is to focus your anger and hatred like a laser on that small number of Muslims behind this atrocity while making it clear to all other Muslims that you do not blame them. That would demonstrate clearly to ISIS that it's strategy has failed.

This is convoluted. We have been tiptoeing around this since 9-11, careful not to label extremism as a Muslim problem. Bush was very careful in this respect, noting that Islam is a religion of peace in the days after 9-11. The West has walked on egg shells not to "offend" moderate Muslims. I said this in a previous post and either it didn't post or it was deleted, we have secular Persian friends who are vocal about the calls to violence in the Koran. There are Arabs in Israel who are vocal about stopping the Palestinian incitement of violence. Yes there are millions of peace loving followers of Islam. But, are they good Muslims in the eyes of their religion? ISIS and others would say no.

You are blaming the West and its "anti-Islamic" policies for forcing middle of the road Muslims to become extremists. Are we pushing moderate Muslims to become terrorists because they may be subject to heightened security at airports? Because they are angry that they can't wear the hijab in certain circumstances? Because they feel that Western society blames them?

We are reading far too much into the psyche of these barbarians. Their cause is clear, they fear nothing and they are quite successful at killing their own and getting better and better at killing everyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

just like all those times wars were waged for God

Are you referring to the Middle Ages or currently?

Actually, both time periods are appropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I am reading the posts, and the problem is not the posts. It's he general message that it's okay to hate on an entire religion because of a few. It is the ignorant and inflammatory way of thinking that ends up clouding day to day life, and escalates to fear, hatred, and beyond. It's what leads countries to war, or huge injustices to humanity (I won't reference another historical us vs them argument, which people so quickly seem to ignore). One need only look at half the memes on Facebook (why really should be a fairly lighthearted slice of life to begin with) to see the seed has long been planted on us vs them. I'm not worried about comments on DCUM, or an entire thread, I'm worried about the seed it plants that makes it okay to some people to spawn misinformation and hatred.

The tenets of their faith - and I am speaking of the regular people, not any extremists - make it an us-vs-them. Dietary restrictions, head covering, strict prayer times and rules, different personal cleansing..... Things that set you apart from your friends and neighbors make it difficult not to be part of the whole. And the implication - my Muslim friends who cover say they do so to shield themselves and their beauty from men's eyes. It's difficult not to hear an implication that not covering makes me kind of a slut. If one must cleanse oneself in certain ways in order to be clean, it's difficult not to hear an implication that the rest of us who do not are unclean. Dutiful adherence to the whole religion fosters an us vs them.

That said, I do feel bad for the regular Muslims who will be at personal risk for the actions of a couple of morons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

Sure, but by letting them co-opt one of the largest religions in the world, you give them a sense of legitimacy and civil rights they do not deserve. They are not following a religion. They are murdering innocents and spreading chaos. I prefer not to let them confuse the issue.

But they believe they are following Islam. That makes them Islamic.

[Anonymous]

Religion is all about control.

The trouble in the Middle East is all about control.

So the actual brand of religion doesn't matter at all. It's the intent that does.

Luckily the world is becoming more atheist. Actually, the desire for control might still be there, I don't know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

just like all those times wars were waged for God

Are you referring to the Middle Ages or currently?

Actually, both time periods are appropriate.

BS. ISIS terrorists are responsible for sawing people's heads off and caging, then igniting a man. They are barbarians. Since we're now hundreds of years past the Middle Ages, their tactics are even more appalling and uncivilized.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is your applying what they say about themselves to all other Muslims.

ISIS has been very clear in its propaganda that one of its goals is to erase the "gray area" that exists between Muslims and the West. Communists use to call this "heightening the contradictions". They want to cause Muslims to choose between groups like ISIS and the West and the more that the West demonstrates that it is anti-Islamic, the more likely Muslims will be to choose ISIS. So, all of you who believe that blaming the entire religion is an acceptable or useful strategy are actually playing into the hands of ISIS. I doubt that is what you want to do. The best strategy is to focus your anger and hatred like a laser on that small number of Muslims behind this atrocity while making it clear to all other Muslims that you do not blame them. That would demonstrate clearly to ISIS that it's strategy has failed.

This is convoluted. We have been tiptoeing around this since 9-11, careful not to label extremism as a Muslim problem. Bush was very careful in this respect, noting that Islam is a religion of peace in the days after 9-11. The West has walked on egg shells not to "offend" moderate Muslims. I said this in a previous post and either it didn't post or it was deleted, we have secular Persian friends who are vocal about the calls to violence in the Koran. There are Arabs in Israel who are vocal about stopping the Palestinian incitement of violence. Yes there are millions of peace loving followers of Islam. But, are they good Muslims in the eyes of their religion? ISIS and others would say no.

You are blaming the West and its "anti-Islamic" policies for forcing middle of the road Muslims to become extremists. Are we pushing moderate Muslims to become terrorists because they may be subject to heightened security at airports? Because they are angry that they can't wear the hijab in certain circumstances? Because they feel that Western society blames them?

We are reading far too much into the psyche of these barbarians. Their cause is clear, they fear nothing and they are quite successful at killing their own and getting better and better at killing everyone else.

I think in the course of writing your post you nearly came around to my way of thinking. If you want to take ISIS at its word that it is acting in the name of Islam, then why not take the organization at its word that it wants to increase the divide between Muslims and the West? That actually doesn't require looking too deeply. While the issues you mention in your second paragraph are important, they pale in comparison to folks in the West calling for the mass killing of Muslims or burning Mosques (both of which have been done on DCUM in the last several hours).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I am reading the posts, and the problem is not the posts. It's he general message that it's okay to hate on an entire religion because of a few. It is the ignorant and inflammatory way of thinking that ends up clouding day to day life, and escalates to fear, hatred, and beyond. It's what leads countries to war, or huge injustices to humanity (I won't reference another historical us vs them argument, which people so quickly seem to ignore). One need only look at half the memes on Facebook (why really should be a fairly lighthearted slice of life to begin with) to see the seed has long been planted on us vs them. I'm not worried about comments on DCUM, or an entire thread, I'm worried about the seed it plants that makes it okay to some people to spawn misinformation and hatred.

The tenets of their faith - and I am speaking of the regular people, not any extremists - make it an us-vs-them. Dietary restrictions, head covering, strict prayer times and rules, different personal cleansing..... Things that set you apart from your friends and neighbors make it difficult not to be part of the whole. And the implication - my Muslim friends who cover say they do so to shield themselves and their beauty from men's eyes. It's difficult not to hear an implication that not covering makes me kind of a slut. If one must cleanse oneself in certain ways in order to be clean, it's difficult not to hear an implication that the rest of us who do not are unclean. Dutiful adherence to the whole religion fosters an us vs them.

That said, I do feel bad for the regular Muslims who will be at personal risk for the actions of a couple of morons.

Stop projecting your own personal insecurities. EVERYONE EVERYWHERE one way or another makes choices that they feel are better about how to live a good life. And other people may feel judged whether or not the person intends it. It's only an issue if you're insecure about your beliefs and way of life and their choices make you question your own. Stop feeling threatened just because people make a decision that is different from your own.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is your applying what they say about themselves to all other Muslims.

ISIS has been very clear in its propaganda that one of its goals is to erase the "gray area" that exists between Muslims and the West. Communists use to call this "heightening the contradictions". They want to cause Muslims to choose between groups like ISIS and the West and the more that the West demonstrates that it is anti-Islamic, the more likely Muslims will be to choose ISIS. So, all of you who believe that blaming the entire religion is an acceptable or useful strategy are actually playing into the hands of ISIS. I doubt that is what you want to do. The best strategy is to focus your anger and hatred like a laser on that small number of Muslims behind this atrocity while making it clear to all other Muslims that you do not blame them. That would demonstrate clearly to ISIS that it's strategy has failed.

Jeff did a great job explaining this, and I agree with him.

But...I think the reason why so many people appear to be blaming all Muslims sometimes boils down to an unintentional lazy generalization...because most people understand that not all Muslims are terrorists. I also think that the crazy high number of Islamic extremists and terrorists lends itself to the perhaps unintentional sweeping generalizations...particularly since they are spread out around the world. Pretend we are in the throes of WWII and someone typed "we need to do something about those damn Germans!" Would you let it slide, or would you point out that not all Germans are bad--heck, many Germans are Jewish--it's the Nazis, not all Germans." While that would be a perfectly legitimate clarification, I'd interpret the original comment as it was likely intended (by Germans, he meant the bad ones--the ones destroying the nation's greatness and giving all of them a bad name).

Another problem: Islamic extremists have built their ideology on religion (albeit by distorting the religion and using it to manipulate people). I read an article the other day about an Imam in Indonesia calling for jihad to burn down all Christian churches. Now while most people understand that the Imam doesn't speak for all Muslims, I can try to put myself in the shoes of a Christian living in Indonesia and imagine that they might feel under attack by Muslims...I don't think that's a huge leap...even if it's not 100% accurate.

Lastly, some people are just assholes. Some people are racist, and they truly believe the hateful things they say about certain groups. There's no point arguing with them because it's really impossible to flip a person like that. That's why--contrary to all the FB posts of MLK's quote about how only love can defeat hatred--I don't believe we can "love" our way to a solution with ISIS. I wish we could, but I don't believe we can. And I don't have a solution. I'm not sure there is one (despite crazy Ben Carson's claims about his secret info on China's involvement and his magic solution).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Religion is all about control.

The trouble in the Middle East is all about control.

So the actual brand of religion doesn't matter at all. It's the intent that does.

Luckily the world is becoming more atheist. Actually, the desire for control might still be there, I don't know.

I think it would probably still be there because it is a facet of human nature. However, it would be harder to influence others without the backing of an all-powerful deity.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is your applying what they say about themselves to all other Muslims.

ISIS has been very clear in its propaganda that one of its goals is to erase the "gray area" that exists between Muslims and the West. Communists use to call this "heightening the contradictions". They want to cause Muslims to choose between groups like ISIS and the West and the more that the West demonstrates that it is anti-Islamic, the more likely Muslims will be to choose ISIS. So, all of you who believe that blaming the entire religion is an acceptable or useful strategy are actually playing into the hands of ISIS. I doubt that is what you want to do. The best strategy is to focus your anger and hatred like a laser on that small number of Muslims behind this atrocity while making it clear to all other Muslims that you do not blame them. That would demonstrate clearly to ISIS that it's strategy has failed.

Jeff did a great job explaining this, and I agree with him.

But...I think the reason why so many people appear to be blaming all Muslims sometimes boils down to an unintentional lazy generalization...because most people understand that not all Muslims are terrorists. I also think that the crazy high number of Islamic extremists and terrorists lends itself to the perhaps unintentional sweeping generalizations...particularly since they are spread out around the world. Pretend we are in the throes of WWII and someone typed "we need to do something about those damn Germans!" Would you let it slide, or would you point out that not all Germans are bad--heck, many Germans are Jewish--it's the Nazis, not all Germans." While that would be a perfectly legitimate clarification, I'd interpret the original comment as it was likely intended (by Germans, he meant the bad ones--the ones destroying the nation's greatness and giving all of them a bad name).

Another problem: Islamic extremists have built their ideology on religion (albeit by distorting the religion and using it to manipulate people). I read an article the other day about an Imam in Indonesia calling for jihad to burn down all Christian churches. Now while most people understand that the Imam doesn't speak for all Muslims, I can try to put myself in the shoes of a Christian living in Indonesia and imagine that they might feel under attack by Muslims...I don't think that's a huge leap...even if it's not 100% accurate.

Lastly, some people are just assholes. Some people are racist, and they truly believe the hateful things they say about certain groups. There's no point arguing with them because it's really impossible to flip a person like that. That's why--contrary to all the FB posts of MLK's quote about how only love can defeat hatred--I don't believe we can "love" our way to a solution with ISIS. I wish we could, but I don't believe we can. And I don't have a solution. I'm not sure there is one (despite crazy Ben Carson's claims about his secret info on China's involvement and his magic solution).

You actually missed an even better example than Germans during World War II. Because people took the attitude you describe toward Japanese, we rounded them up and forced them into camps. While the attitude you describe is understandable, that does not make it right. I would hope that reasonable people would not want to repeat the mistakes of the past and would work to avoid them. A very easy step in that direction is by being diligent in distinguishing between extremists and ordinary people.

I agree with your second paragraph. We can't do much about an Imam in Indonesia. But, I've removed a number of posts from DCUM calling for mosques to be burnt. I do have the power to remove such posts -- and I have -- and all of us have the power to resist our country becoming the mirror image of the situation you describe in Indonesia.

The struggle against ISIS is ultimately a struggle for resources. It is doubtful we can love our way out of it. The division of resources is a zero-sum game. There will always be a loser and nobody loses willingly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

just like all those times wars were waged for God

Are you referring to the Middle Ages or currently?

Actually, both time periods are appropriate.

BS. ISIS terrorists are responsible for sawing people's heads off and caging, then igniting a man. They are barbarians. Since we're now hundreds of years past the Middle Ages, their tactics are even more appalling and uncivilized.

Beheading has been part of history! Are you seriously trying to tell me it's a new thing? lol

Do some research before posting such nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I am reading the posts, and the problem is not the posts. It's he general message that it's okay to hate on an entire religion because of a few. It is the ignorant and inflammatory way of thinking that ends up clouding day to day life, and escalates to fear, hatred, and beyond. It's what leads countries to war, or huge injustices to humanity (I won't reference another historical us vs them argument, which people so quickly seem to ignore). One need only look at half the memes on Facebook (why really should be a fairly lighthearted slice of life to begin with) to see the seed has long been planted on us vs them. I'm not worried about comments on DCUM, or an entire thread, I'm worried about the seed it plants that makes it okay to some people to spawn misinformation and hatred.

The tenets of their faith - and I am speaking of the regular people, not any extremists - make it an us-vs-them. Dietary restrictions, head covering, strict prayer times and rules, different personal cleansing..... Things that set you apart from your friends and neighbors make it difficult not to be part of the whole. And the implication - my Muslim friends who cover say they do so to shield themselves and their beauty from men's eyes. It's difficult not to hear an implication that not covering makes me kind of a slut. If one must cleanse oneself in certain ways in order to be clean, it's difficult not to hear an implication that the rest of us who do not are unclean. Dutiful adherence to the whole religion fosters an us vs them.

That said, I do feel bad for the regular Muslims who will be at personal risk for the actions of a couple of morons.

Those same rules are in the Christian bible. Christians choose to disregard them.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about we take these terrorists on their word? They say they are doing it for Allah. I say we believe them.

I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is your applying what they say about themselves to all other Muslims.

ISIS has been very clear in its propaganda that one of its goals is to erase the "gray area" that exists between Muslims and the West. Communists use to call this "heightening the contradictions". They want to cause Muslims to choose between groups like ISIS and the West and the more that the West demonstrates that it is anti-Islamic, the more likely Muslims will be to choose ISIS. So, all of you who believe that blaming the entire religion is an acceptable or useful strategy are actually playing into the hands of ISIS. I doubt that is what you want to do. The best strategy is to focus your anger and hatred like a laser on that small number of Muslims behind this atrocity while making it clear to all other Muslims that you do not blame them. That would demonstrate clearly to ISIS that it's strategy has failed.

This is convoluted. We have been tiptoeing around this since 9-11, careful not to label extremism as a Muslim problem. Bush was very careful in this respect, noting that Islam is a religion of peace in the days after 9-11. The West has walked on egg shells not to "offend" moderate Muslims. I said this in a previous post and either it didn't post or it was deleted, we have secular Persian friends who are vocal about the calls to violence in the Koran. There are Arabs in Israel who are vocal about stopping the Palestinian incitement of violence. Yes there are millions of peace loving followers of Islam. But, are they good Muslims in the eyes of their religion? ISIS and others would say no.

You are blaming the West and its "anti-Islamic" policies for forcing middle of the road Muslims to become extremists. Are we pushing moderate Muslims to become terrorists because they may be subject to heightened security at airports? Because they are angry that they can't wear the hijab in certain circumstances? Because they feel that Western society blames them?

We are reading far too much into the psyche of these barbarians. Their cause is clear, they fear nothing and they are quite successful at killing their own and getting better and better at killing everyone else.

I think in the course of writing your post you nearly came around to my way of thinking. If you want to take ISIS at its word that it is acting in the name of Islam, then why not take the organization at its word that it wants to increase the divide between Muslims and the West? That actually doesn't require looking too deeply. While the issues you mention in your second paragraph are important, they pale in comparison to folks in the West calling for the mass killing of Muslims or burning Mosques (both of which have been done on DCUM in the last several hours).

Of course they are trying to recruit moderate Muslims and they are getting quite good at it. The question is why? What causes a middle-upper class, educated Frenchman with a supportive family to become a Jihadist?

I am a Jew. I'm typing on Shabbat as we speak. I had bacon for breakfast. I'm a bad Jew and I admit it but I like Judaism for the cultural aspects and the messages of tzedakkah and tekun olam. When my time comes, that will be between God and me. I would argue that millions upon millions of Muslims take the same approach. They pick and choose what to follow out of a deep rooted moral compass. But, the truth of the matter is that they are cherry picking the Koran to live the life that they wish, just as ISIS is doing.

I haven't seen the posts calling for burning mosques or mass killings of Muslims. That is disgusting and horrific and I don't for a second believe that many Americans feel this way. I just don't buy it. It's a convenient argument for the Left. Like I said earlier, Bush and Obama have walked on egg shells to be sure US policy doesn't imply an assault on Islam. The recruiting and violence continue.