SAT Subject Tests?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If colleges think SATIIs are better assessments of aptitude, why don't they come out and say that?

SAT IIs, which have also been called Subject Tests and Achievement Tests, are tests of what the typical high school course in a subject should cover. They are not aptitude tests and the descriptions of them have always made clear that they are not aptitude tests. They are tests of what the student has learned, not how the student learns.

Yes, and so why would you need to take me if you have scored well on the AP exam in that subject? If you've taken many APs, why would any SAT 2 be necessary?

[Anonymous]

^^why would you need to take one

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If colleges think SATIIs are better assessments of aptitude, why don't they come out and say that?

SAT IIs, which have also been called Subject Tests and Achievement Tests, are tests of what the typical high school course in a subject should cover. They are not aptitude tests and the descriptions of them have always made clear that they are not aptitude tests. They are tests of what the student has learned, not how the student learns.

Yes, and so why would you need to take me if you have scored well on the AP exam in that subject? If you've taken many APs, why would any SAT 2 be necessary?

None of the sheep want to think about this question, pp. They just do what they're told.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If colleges think SATIIs are better assessments of aptitude, why don't they come out and say that?

SAT IIs, which have also been called Subject Tests and Achievement Tests, are tests of what the typical high school course in a subject should cover. They are not aptitude tests and the descriptions of them have always made clear that they are not aptitude tests. They are tests of what the student has learned, not how the student learns.

Yes, and so why would you need to take me if you have scored well on the AP exam in that subject? If you've taken many APs, why would any SAT 2 be necessary?

Because, some schools require them. Simple as that. If you don't want to take them, just make sure you don't apply to those schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP tests are different from subject tests. For the OP, some schools require subject testts so you have to look at the schools your child is interested in. A state flagship rarely requires subject tests.

This is correct. The AP ones are the ones scored 1-5. Many colleges will give you college credit for 3, 4, 5. Subject matter tests are different and are increasingly being required by the most elite schools. The problem is that colleges are frustrated with the quality of AP teaching at the high school level. Johnnie applies, saying he has taken 11 AP courses. How can the college tell what that really means? Answer: subject matter tests. My kiddo has to take two in the fall for his stretch school.

PP, what school requires three subject matter tests?

[Anonymous]

Georgetown and Princeton.

[Anonymous]

Generally, the function of standardized testing in college admissions is to provide some level of commensurability among candidates (and/or a reality check on HS GPA). APs can serve the latter function, but not the former, because not all schools offer them, not all students take them when offered, and many students won't have results prior to admissions decisionmaking. SAT IIs test material that is supposed to be taught in HS and that colleges expect students to know when they come in the door. So it's a
more reasonable requirement from an admissions standpoint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Generally, the function of standardized testing in college admissions is to provide some level of commensurability among candidates (and/or a reality check on HS GPA). APs can serve the latter function, but not the former, because not all schools offer them, not all students take them when offered, and many students won't have results prior to admissions decisionmaking. SAT IIs test material that is supposed to be taught in HS and that colleges expect students to know when they come in the door. So it's a
more reasonable requirement from an admissions standpoint.

Colleges may be concerned about the level of teaching that goes on in AP classes, sure. But I have heard no concerns that the the tests themselves have declined in difficulty. So while a college may look skeptically at the grade of A in an AP class, getting a 4 or 5 on the test should be a reasonable measure of course mastery. Why should a student who has gotten a high score on an AP test be asked to take an SAT II in the same subject? (In fact, many admissions "experts" advise applicants to take SAT II tests in exactly the AP subjects they scored 4 or 5.) What is the point? The only point would be if colleges DO think the AP test itself is no longer a good test of knowledge. If that's true, then why do they want you to take the AP tests at all? Why not ask students to take SAT II INSTEAD?

Colleges may be concerned that they don't have test results for AP classes taken senior year prior to admissions decision-making. But if this is the reason why colleges ask for SAT II scores, doesn't that mean colleges expect students to demonstrate mastery of course material BEFORE the student has actually taken the class?

Colleges may be concerned that they don't have a reality check on HS GPA, or a standard measure of knowledge, for kids who don't or can't take AP classes. And it makes sense to ask THOSE students to take SAT IIs. Again, this doesn't explain why kids who have taken AP classes/tests should also be required to take SAT IIs.

Are the same parents who are on this board complaining about the pressure and demands on high school students and the cutthroat competitive environment in some high schools the same parents who are making excuses for why all this testing is a good idea?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP tests are different from subject tests. For the OP, some schools require subject testts so you have to look at the schools your child is interested in. A state flagship rarely requires subject tests.

This is correct. The AP ones are the ones scored 1-5. Many colleges will give you college credit for 3, 4, 5. Subject matter tests are different and are increasingly being required by the most elite schools. The problem is that colleges are frustrated with the quality of AP teaching at the high school level. Johnnie applies, saying he has taken 11 AP courses. How can the college tell what that really means? Answer: subject matter tests. My kiddo has to take two in the fall for his stretch school.

PP, what school requires three subject matter tests?

Since, to my knowledge, there is nowhere in America where Johnnie can take 11 AP courses in one year, about half or more of those courses will have been completed before he applies to College X. The college can tell what that really means because Johnnie will have taken 6+ AP exams and scored 1-5 on them.

[Anonymous]

Princeton requires 2, not 3

[Anonymous]

FROM PP: Kid #2 did mjch more with truly excellent results, and great improvement off of original scores.

Question: what are the rules on retaking? DC is freshman thinking of taking Biology SAT. Had rigorous Biology course this year that was not AP but covered most of the AP curriculum (and used AP textbook). So we'd like to knock this out while the knowledge is still fresh. No plans to take AP Biology Exam.

Am wondering if it is not a good score, when/how can DC retake? (in fall, after studying in summer?)

And what happens to the score you don't like?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

The SAT subject tests can be retaken. There are schools though that require the student to report all scores. My suggestion is to take a real practice test first to see if doing the test right now yields a score in the range you would like to see. I believe there is only the June test date left before summer break so you'll want to make a decision soon. Also, my DC did each test on separate dates but there might be a rule about score choice and having to suppress all the tests for a given date vs separately...not sure...might have been related to cancellation prior to scoring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Generally, the function of standardized testing in college admissions is to provide some level of commensurability among candidates (and/or a reality check on HS GPA). APs can serve the latter function, but not the former, because not all schools offer them, not all students take them when offered, and many students won't have results prior to admissions decisionmaking. SAT IIs test material that is supposed to be taught in HS and that colleges expect students to know when they come in the door. So it's a more reasonable requirement from an admissions standpoint.

Colleges may be concerned about the level of teaching that goes on in AP classes, sure. But I have heard no concerns that the the tests themselves have declined in difficulty. So while a college may look skeptically at the grade of A in an AP class, getting a 4 or 5 on the test should be a reasonable measure of course mastery. Why should a student who has gotten a high score on an AP test be asked to take an SAT II in the same subject? (In fact, many admissions "experts" advise applicants to take SAT II tests in exactly the AP subjects they scored 4 or 5.) What is the point? The only point would be if colleges DO think the AP test itself is no longer a good test of knowledge. If that's true, then why do they want you to take the AP tests at all? Why not ask students to take SAT II INSTEAD?

Colleges may be concerned that they don't have test results for AP classes taken senior year prior to admissions decision-making. But if this is the reason why colleges ask for SAT II scores, doesn't that mean colleges expect students to demonstrate mastery of course material BEFORE the student has actually taken the class?

Colleges may be concerned that they don't have a reality check on HS GPA, or a standard measure of knowledge, for kids who don't or can't take AP classes. And it makes sense to ask THOSE students to take SAT IIs. Again, this doesn't explain why kids who have taken AP classes/tests should also be required to take SAT IIs.

Are the same parents who are on this board complaining about the pressure and demands on high school students and the cutthroat competitive environment in some high schools the same parents who are making excuses for why all this testing is a good idea?

I'd be fine with eliminating APs. I think they're screwed up on so many levels. But part of my reaction is based on having been a professor in a liberal arts field. Might see it differently if I were in math or science. At a minimum, I'd like to see the "take the most challenging courses you can" advice change dramatically.

Not sure whether I'd require SAT IIs if I were placed in charge of deciding how to do college admissions. But I can see why someone in that position might make that decision -- hence my explanation (in response another poster's asking why). And if colleges want to compare kids who didn't take AP courses with kids who did, they need to have both groups take the same test. Comparing one kid's APs scores with another kid's SAT IIs doesn't provide commensurability which, again, is what I think they're looking for at the admissions stage.

Post-admissions, most colleges I'm familiar with use a variety of different tests (in-house, SAT II, AP) for placement purposes and/or for relief from various distribution requirements. Depends on the course and sometimes the student has a choice. The rules are specific enough that my take is faculty are the decisionmakers at this stage. They're the ones who care about ensuring content mastery rather than making comparisons among students.