Why (traditional) gifted education doesn't make sense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But does the school wide model work?

I think the answer to that necessarily depends on what you are asking. What do you mean by "work"? Isn't the point that different educators have different goals for gifted and enrichment programs?

It definitely doesn't work for those whose goal is to segregate.
I don't know of any long term studies correlating test score increases, if that's what matters to you.
To me, it seems great. Kids get exposure to new challenges. And it's completely flexible. I like it.

Come on, the bone-headed DC model aggresively segregates by race and class, without segregation as the goal. Most white families who start in DC public flee long before HS for lack of challenge and peer groups parents see as desirable, and few Asians will touch the system from the get go. There are 150 Asians in all DCPS and 300,000 in the burbs.

your post is racist and untrue.

Which part? The part about whites fleeing? Watkins, DCPS' biggest elementary school, has long been around one-third white in first grade and less than 10% white by 5th. By 8th grade at Stuart Hobson, you're down to not even 5% white in a catchment area that's 2/3 white. The part about Asians avoiding DCPS? 150 Asians in the entire system, mostly in Upper NW? Count 'em. Let's stick with the facts, shall we?

While we are "sticking with the facts". You may want to concede that Watkins is not the largest elementary school in dc, I have not looked at all, but at least Murch, Janney and Lafayette are larger, Lafayette by more than 100 students and the majority of their students of all races proceed to Deal.

I think you would have a lot more students of all races in DCPS middle school on the hill if DCPS could bring all the prepared students together in a single middle school rather than spreading them across three. It is about a prepared cohort, not race.

[Anonymous]

The biggest drivers behind school segregation in DC are a. ) the overreliance on the neighborhood school model, and b. ) the failure of DCPS to provide the adequately robust level of school environment that families expect, thus driving those with the ability to seek out alternatives to leave.

That includes flaccid support for advanced learners and overconfidence in in-class differentiation. DCPS really needs to wrap its head around the fundamental concept that it actually needs to attract and retain students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The biggest drivers behind school segregation in DC are a. ) the overreliance on the neighborhood school model, and b. ) the failure of DCPS to provide the adequately robust level of school environment that families expect, thus driving those with the ability to seek out alternatives to leave.

That includes flaccid support for advanced learners and overconfidence in in-class differentiation. DCPS really needs to wrap its head around the fundamental concept that it actually needs to attract and retain students.

What do you make of the fact that your generalization is not true in all parts of DC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The biggest drivers behind school segregation in DC are a. ) the overreliance on the neighborhood school model, and b. ) the failure of DCPS to provide the adequately robust level of school environment that families expect, thus driving those with the ability to seek out alternatives to leave.

That includes flaccid support for advanced learners and overconfidence in in-class differentiation. DCPS really needs to wrap its head around the fundamental concept that it actually needs to attract and retain students.

What do you make of the fact that your generalization is not true in all parts of DC?

The generalization holds true for the majority of DC

[Anonymous]

We have heard from many posters in here who are happy with the level of differentiation in the classroom that their DCPS provides. This includes not just the teacher's efforts but also the materials/instructional resources, and training that the teachers are provided. Which DCPS' (that your children attend) are not providing adequate differentiation for your advanced performing student?

[Anonymous]

Where did Mathews' kids go to school?

[Anonymous]

I suspect dc cares more about the 50 to 60 percent of students not working on grade level than the 3 to 5% of students who are so intelligent they can't be served in a differentiated classroom. And parents who whine and move to moco might find out their kid won't make the gifted cut there either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where did Mathews' kids go to school?

I really want to know the answer to this question, in addition to where he went to school and college, and how much money he makes (since he has suggested measuring the success of GT programs by income)

signed,
fed who made more on Wall Street than I will ever make at DOJ
married to a husband who I met at my Ivy League college who has a PhD in Computer Science from the top university and makes $5k more NOW after ten years on the job than my starting salary at my Wall Street law firm ten years ago.

Go ahead and use income as a measure of "success." We always said at my firm that we were the A students working for the B students (the investment bankers) but my work was and is more intellectually challenging and he is doing good things for his country...................

Why don't you look at the research scientists, the college professors at the Ivy League Universities, the federal judges, the researchers at the CDC and at NIH, and the quants who are helping completely model the human genome............

I was taught that money almost never equals intelligence or intellectual potential
either you are partially responsible for this country's financial crisis or you are partially responsible for the "I'm just a bill on Capitol Hill" - not a congressman, because they are too dumb, but a blood sucking big law lobbyist

Pardon my bitterness, that comment hurt my pride
signed,
descendant of a Mt. Rushmore worthy president whose family has been in public service making no money ever since......and proud of it, until you insult our intelligence or our capacity to become traitors and make huge amounts of money at the expense of almost everything my family has ever believed in or stood for.................and the tradition my husband (a product of G&T programs in a city that actually has them) is continuing................

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was one of those kids who missed the IQ requirement by one or two points, and was the next in line. I've always been an extremely hard working, straight A student and successful.

BUT I was very frustrated that I wasn't allowed into the magnet program because I could do the work.

I see both sides. Yes, gifted children need stimulation. Struggling students need support. But hard workers like me who also need to be challenged shouldn't be lumped in non-gifted track because I missed the mark on one test.

There has to be a way to challenge EVERYONE and not make anyone feel inferior.

This was me too. Glad admission is done differently these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where did Mathews' kids go to school?

I really want to know the answer to this question, in addition to where he went to school and college, and how much money he makes (since he has suggested measuring the success of GT programs by income)

signed,
fed who made more on Wall Street than I will ever make at DOJ
married to a husband who I met at my Ivy League college who has a PhD in Computer Science from the top university and makes $5k more NOW after ten years on the job than my starting salary at my Wall Street law firm ten years ago.

Go ahead and use income as a measure of "success." We always said at my firm that we were the A students working for the B students (the investment bankers) but my work was and is more intellectually challenging and he is doing good things for his country...................

Why don't you look at the research scientists, the college professors at the Ivy League Universities, the federal judges, the researchers at the CDC and at NIH, and the quants who are helping completely model the human genome............

I was taught that money almost never equals intelligence or intellectual potential
either you are partially responsible for this country's financial crisis or you are partially responsible for the "I'm just a bill on Capitol Hill" - not a congressman, because they are too dumb, but a blood sucking big law lobbyist

Pardon my bitterness, that comment hurt my pride
signed,
descendant of a Mt. Rushmore worthy president whose family has been in public service making no money ever since......and proud of it, until you insult our intelligence or our capacity to become traitors and make huge amounts of money at the expense of almost everything my family has ever believed in or stood for.................and the tradition my husband (a product of G&T programs in a city that actually has them) is continuing................

Same... but we're telling our kids that they have to go for the money. After several generations in public service, the money is running out and they will have to get jobs that completely support their lifestyle rather than being subsidized by money made by people they never met... Will be going private after elementary school after being the first ones ever who went to public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where did Mathews' kids go to school?

I really want to know the answer to this question, in addition to where he went to school and college, and how much money he makes (since he has suggested measuring the success of GT programs by income)

signed,
fed who made more on Wall Street than I will ever make at DOJ
married to a husband who I met at my Ivy League college who has a PhD in Computer Science from the top university and makes $5k more NOW after ten years on the job than my starting salary at my Wall Street law firm ten years ago.

Go ahead and use income as a measure of "success." We always said at my firm that we were the A students working for the B students (the investment bankers) but my work was and is more intellectually challenging and he is doing good things for his country...................

Why don't you look at the research scientists, the college professors at the Ivy League Universities, the federal judges, the researchers at the CDC and at NIH, and the quants who are helping completely model the human genome............

I was taught that money almost never equals intelligence or intellectual potential
either you are partially responsible for this country's financial crisis or you are partially responsible for the "I'm just a bill on Capitol Hill" - not a congressman, because they are too dumb, but a blood sucking big law lobbyist

Pardon my bitterness, that comment hurt my pride
signed,
descendant of a Mt. Rushmore worthy president whose family has been in public service making no money ever since......and proud of it, until you insult our intelligence or our capacity to become traitors and make huge amounts of money at the expense of almost everything my family has ever believed in or stood for.................and the tradition my husband (a product of G&T programs in a city that actually has them) is continuing................

Uh, honey, what seems to be your malfunction? Apparently something crawled up your ass and died there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I suspect dc cares more about the 50 to 60 percent of students not working on grade level than the 3 to 5% of students who are so intelligent they can't be served in a differentiated classroom. And parents who whine and move to moco might find out their kid won't make the gifted cut there either.

If only they did care about those underperformers... Based on the results, a huge number of them still end up graduating barely proficient, not to mention 40% dropping out of school altogether.

Since they end up underserved as well, ultimately one wonders who they ARE serving and wondering if they are truly meeting the needs of ANY of their students.

All the more reason that people should get out of the way of the charters, who at least are trying to meet the needs of various segments. Charters could easily take care of that 3 to 5% as well, since DCPS doesn't feel they need to address it...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The biggest drivers behind school segregation in DC are a. ) the overreliance on the neighborhood school model, and b. ) the failure of DCPS to provide the adequately robust level of school environment that families expect, thus driving those with the ability to seek out alternatives to leave.

That includes flaccid support for advanced learners and overconfidence in in-class differentiation. DCPS really needs to wrap its head around the fundamental concept that it actually needs to attract and retain students.

But DCPS doesn't in fact need to attract and retain students unless the DC City Council requires this, which isn't happening. As long as council members, and the mayor, are not paying the price at the pols on education issues, inaction remains tenable. Upper middle-income voters can vote with their feet in droves, and nearly half the low-income students can drop out before completing high school, without consequences for DCPS.

For example, Mary Cheh's been lobbying to persuade DCPS to build/open more high performing schools in Upper NW for many years to reduce crowding, and head off catastrophic crowding, in vain because she and Jack Evans have been voices in the wilderness on the council on the issue. You can still get elected in Ward 6--easily--and win the mayoral vote there, term after term, without so much as outlining a plan to deliver a single high-performing DCPS school after 5th grade. Catania continues to poll well in Ward 6 without having objected to the dead-ended mayor's recommendations on middle school feeds.

If voters aren't going to demand more, more won't be delivered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The biggest drivers behind school segregation in DC are a. ) the overreliance on the neighborhood school model, and b. ) the failure of DCPS to provide the adequately robust level of school environment that families expect, thus driving those with the ability to seek out alternatives to leave.

That includes flaccid support for advanced learners and overconfidence in in-class differentiation. DCPS really needs to wrap its head around the fundamental concept that it actually needs to attract and retain students.

But DCPS doesn't in fact need to attract and retain students unless the DC City Council requires this, which isn't happening. As long as council members, and the mayor, are not paying the price at the pols on education issues, inaction remains tenable. Upper middle-income voters can vote with their feet in droves, and nearly half the low-income students can drop out before completing high school, without consequences for DCPS.

For example, Mary Cheh's been lobbying to persuade DCPS to build/open more high performing schools in Upper NW for many years to reduce crowding, and head off catastrophic crowding, in vain because she and Jack Evans have been voices in the wilderness on the council on the issue. You can still get elected in Ward 6--easily--and win the mayoral vote there, term after term, without so much as outlining a plan to deliver a single high-performing DCPS school after 5th grade. Catania continues to poll well in Ward 6 without having objected to the dead-ended mayor's recommendations on middle school feeds.

If voters aren't going to demand more, more won't be delivered.

Then, the anti-charter crowd needs to stop whining about charters skimming off high performing students, because you've just said DCPS has no statutory mandate from Council for retaining them.

[Anonymous]

I agree 100%. Let the charters cream more kids off. Heck, let them cherrypick kids like mad via selective admissions programs and lotteries for native speakers in the language immersion programs. I'd simply want to see more high-performing students and their families stay in the system all around the city, including us.