"Apply to Law School Now!" YES, someone actually wrote an article stating this!

[Anonymous]

Does Penn have a part-time program? That surprises me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does Penn have a part-time program? That surprises me.

Is it possible she meant Penn state? I was surprised about night program too.

[Anonymous]

PP here - sorry I didn't clarify....if he's working full time (as in, can move his fed job which is immigration related to where we are going to move), he'll go to a part time program at either Temple or Villanova. With his LSAT scores he could very easily go for a scholarship and not even have to use his GI Bill (and then use that for something else if he wants).

If he can't get a transfer, but gets in to Penn, he'll use his GI Bill (which has about $1800/mo in living expenses) and do that.

sorry about the confusion

[Anonymous]

(PP here - I'm not sure 'Nova has part time - we haven't looked because, really, he'd pick Temple over 'Nova regardless....won't go to a catholic school. Ah, my husband!)

[Anonymous]

he should take a free ride somewhere. if he doesn't get a free ride, don't go. also, don't go if he actually has any skills (and most people who go to law school don't anyway, so...)

[Anonymous]

Con law and immigration law seem like total opposites. The latter for bottom students from crappy schools or immigrants and the former for top students from the best schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Con law and immigration law seem like total opposites. The latter for bottom students from crappy schools or immigrants and the former for top students from the best schools.

He doesn't want to be an "immigration lawyer" but rather a DOJ/EOIR. He loves constitutional law and all that but knows there's no real job market for it.

Anonymous wrote: he should take a free ride somewhere. if he doesn't get a free ride, don't go. also, don't go if he actually has any skills (and most people who go to law school don't anyway, so...)

Yeah, I think this is his thinking - it's likely to be free or even free with some living expenses (GI Bill). Just wondering if that's a good idea, I guess. I think any free graduate degree is good (mine was free...we have zero student loan debt in our house - it's pretty amazing and we are very thankful. I'd like to keep it that way!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Non lawyer here with some patent law friends. What is the difference?

Mostly supply and demand. To do patent law, you need to have a technical degree, and those in the highest demand are engineering degrees. In some areas, you need to have a masters or PhD in addition to the JD, and not that many people are interested in investing nearly a decade of time into higher education. There are just not that many people with engineering degrees who are interested in going into law--especially given that there are other employment options without taking on so much debt. There are also a lot of scientists and engineers who suck at writing, which is problematic if you are a lawyer. Most people who go to law school have humanities or social science majors, and they don't have the background to do intellectual property law for tech, biotech, pharma, etc.

On top of that STEM degrees tend to have less grade inflation, especially engineering, so there are not nearly as many people who have the grades to get into top law schools. People also tend to go to law school a little older than traditional law students, because they have pursued higher education or worked in industry for a while and decided to do a career change. This means more people go to part time law school than other areas of law, or go to lower tier law schools with scholarships because when you are older sometimes you are not in a position to take on as much debt. For the most part, the top law schools don't have part time programs.

All of this means that employers can't be as choosy as with other areas of law since there is just a smaller pool of qualified people. More people get employed in high paying jobs coming from worse ranked law schools or having worse law school grades, especially if they have education and experience that is relevant to clients. There are also a lot of firms that specialize in only intellectual property that pay just as well as Big Law firms. DC is a hub for intellectual because of the patent and trademark office and there are a lot of firms that specialize in intellectual property based out of the DC area, so there are a lot of opportunities to work in a legal job if you go to school part time, and Georgetown, GW, AU, and George Mason all have night programs.

I'm computer science graduate (bachelor's degree) and was an English minor, so a lot of people suggested patent law. It honestly wasn't worth the time investment. It seemed like the options were high paying/long hours, or Government. Since I already am in Government and don't want to work long hours, I would have had to pay out of pocket. My scientific job wouldn't pay for law school. So, I would have to work full-time for many years and invest a lot if money to make the same money I would make anyway. So, yeah, it's not an attractive option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Con law and immigration law seem like total opposites. The latter for bottom students from crappy schools or immigrants and the former for top students from the best schools.

He doesn't want to be an "immigration lawyer" but rather a DOJ/EOIR. He loves constitutional law and all that but knows there's no real job market for it.

Anonymous wrote: he should take a free ride somewhere. if he doesn't get a free ride, don't go. also, don't go if he actually has any skills (and most people who go to law school don't anyway, so...)

Yeah, I think this is his thinking - it's likely to be free or even free with some living expenses (GI Bill). Just wondering if that's a good idea, I guess. I think any free graduate degree is good (mine was free...we have zero student loan debt in our house - it's pretty amazing and we are very thankful. I'd like to keep it that way!)

your husband needs to realize that DOJ is a HUGE crapshoot. they turn away people from the best schools. if it's DOJ or bust for him, i would advise him to forget law school. might as well buy a lottery ticket.

[Anonymous]

OP here - not DOJ or bust. Just something he is thinking given his current immigration-based job.

I think for him, since it's basically cost free, he doesn't see much risk (other than time)

[Anonymous]

I'm computer science graduate (bachelor's degree) and was an English minor, so a lot of people suggested patent law. It honestly wasn't worth the time investment. It seemed like the options were high paying/long hours, or Government. Since I already am in Government and don't want to work long hours, I would have had to pay out of pocket. My scientific job wouldn't pay for law school. So, I would have to work full-time for many years and invest a lot if money to make the same money I would make anyway. So, yeah, it's not an attractive option.

This is exactly why CS and engineering are in such high demand relative to other legal jobs. There are so many other lucrative jobs that don't require additional education/Big Law hours, so the number of people who think it is worth it to make that jump is relatively small. I think for bench work heavy fields (biochemistry, molecular biology, chemistry) there is always a certain segment of people who get really burned out doing benchwork and want to transition into law for that reason, however the notion of spending 8-10 years in higher education turns people off.

[Anonymous]

I'm a law student. I love law school, and would probably enjoy higher education in any field because I just enjoy the learning process. If you or anyone you know are considering law school DON'T DO IT. This coming from someone who really enjoys the law school experience.

You will learn analytical skills that you don't get anywhere else. I am a better informed consumer of law, policy, and media because I study law. But it's not a skill set that will pay off your loans, not anymore. For people who chose law school for public interest work, learning just how thoroughly the civil rights laws have been gutted will be a rude awakening. Law was the vehicle to advance the civil rights agenda at one point in history. Those glory days are long behind us.


If you still plan to go into law, at least choose a public institution where you will gain practice ready skills. UDC is awarded year after year for offering a skills based curriculum. In my third year at one of DC's private schools I have never even written a motion... of any type. Yet my tuition is nearly equal that of a top ten school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here - not DOJ or bust. Just something he is thinking given his current immigration-based job.

I think for him, since it's basically cost free, he doesn't see much risk (other than time)

Listen, I went to law school at very little cost due to scholarships and it's a lot more than just time and money. I've graduated without an offer and am struggling, along with thousands of other people, to find something reasonable. Not having debt is nice but I still would not do it again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm computer science graduate (bachelor's degree) and was an English minor, so a lot of people suggested patent law. It honestly wasn't worth the time investment. It seemed like the options were high paying/long hours, or Government. Since I already am in Government and don't want to work long hours, I would have had to pay out of pocket. My scientific job wouldn't pay for law school. So, I would have to work full-time for many years and invest a lot if money to make the same money I would make anyway. So, yeah, it's not an attractive option.

This is exactly why CS and engineering are in such high demand relative to other legal jobs. There are so many other lucrative jobs that don't require additional education/Big Law hours, so the number of people who think it is worth it to make that jump is relatively small. I think for bench work heavy fields (biochemistry, molecular biology, chemistry) there is always a certain segment of people who get really burned out doing benchwork and want to transition into law for that reason, however the notion of spending 8-10 years in higher education turns people off.

I'm the first quoted poster. Yes, you're right, people in hard sciences are more likely to jump, mostly because those fields are lower paying than Engineering and Computer Science and many even have a Master's Degree already....mostly because there are more graduates of those programs. So, you have less technical graduates in the first place and they make more money without an advanced degree. This means that Patent Law associated with technical fields is even higher paying, but it's very long hours and high pressure. The technical fields have a wide range of options as to work schedules and types of occupation. It just doesn't make sense to go into Law if it's not something you really want to do personally or you want to make a ton of money.

[Anonymous]

The second sentence was poorly edited....I meant to say "because those fields are lower paying than Engineering and Computer Science....mostly because there are more graduates of those programs. Many people in the hard sciences also obtain Master's Degrees so they don't want to go back to Law School."