What options for the "C" student?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:tyler cowen would say your kid is fucked and would be better apprenticing in a garage/mechanic.

While america's commitment to college access is commendable I do wonder if the europeans had the right system all along considering the hollowing out of 'middle-skill undergrad degree holder' jobs.

perhaps the europeans were right all along in making college affordable but restricting entry and then having apprenticeships for non-college track students.

It also probably helps that in european countries the 'college premium' for wages isn't as big of gap so the market signals don't force parents to send all kids to college.

This thinking seems upside down to me. It's missing some key context, which is that Europe has less income inequality than the US (for a variety of reasons that would make for a very long digression, so I won't go there). So the European system, which limits access to higher education, isn't building in quite as much income inequality as would happen if the same limits on higher education were implemented here. By contrast, there was an article just today, or maybe yesterday, in the Post citing research about the growing income gap in the US between high school-educated and college educated workers. So in the US, a college education is key for getting a good income, and restricting access to college would reinforce income inequality in this country.

While I like that European governments subsidize their universities more than we do, the limits on access mean that the privileged few are benefiting from these state subsidies.

I don't get your point about the "hollowing out of middle-skill undergrad degree holder jobs." It's true that more jobs require a master's degree these days. But that's no reason to shut people out of getting the prerequisite BA degree.

Pp you quoted. My last point precisely said what you did regarding income inequality. I know that's a huge market signal in this country that tells everyone to go to college even if it might not be he most optimal course of action.

The reason why more jobs ask for masters degrees now a days is precisely because of the flooding of ug degrees. For most jobs it's just a way to reduce the number of applicants to a more manageable level.

Furthermore quality grad degrees are filled with good students from quality ug programs - flooding the ug system with more and more kids for whom college is not the best answer isn't going to increase the quality of grad students.

But yes, until we fix the wage disparity between "college educated" and the trades/blue collar work, parents and kids will do anything to go to college - even if it means crushing financial decisions that more and more might not pay off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:tyler cowen would say your kid is fucked and would be better apprenticing in a garage/mechanic.

While america's commitment to college access is commendable I do wonder if the europeans had the right system all along considering the hollowing out of 'middle-skill undergrad degree holder' jobs.

perhaps the europeans were right all along in making college affordable but restricting entry and then having apprenticeships for non-college track students.

It also probably helps that in european countries the 'college premium' for wages isn't as big of gap so the market signals don't force parents to send all kids to college.

This thinking seems upside down to me. It's missing some key context, which is that Europe has less income inequality than the US (for a variety of reasons that would make for a very long digression, so I won't go there). So the European system, which limits access to higher education, isn't building in quite as much income inequality as would happen if the same limits on higher education were implemented here. By contrast, there was an article just today, or maybe yesterday, in the Post citing research about the growing income gap in the US between high school-educated and college educated workers. So in the US, a college education is key for getting a good income, and restricting access to college would reinforce income inequality in this country.

While I like that European governments subsidize their universities more than we do, the limits on access mean that the privileged few are benefiting from these state subsidies.

I don't get your point about the "hollowing out of middle-skill undergrad degree holder jobs." It's true that more jobs require a master's degree these days. But that's no reason to shut people out of getting the prerequisite BA degree.

Pp you quoted. My last point precisely said what you did regarding income inequality. I know that's a huge market signal in this country that tells everyone to go to college even if it might not be he most optimal course of action.

The reason why more jobs ask for masters degrees now a days is precisely because of the flooding of ug degrees. For most jobs it's just a way to reduce the number of applicants to a more manageable level.

Furthermore quality grad degrees are filled with good students from quality ug programs - flooding the ug system with more and more kids for whom college is not the best answer isn't going to increase the quality of grad students.

But yes, until we fix the wage disparity between "college educated" and the trades/blue collar work, parents and kids will do anything to go to college - even if it means crushing financial decisions that more and more might not pay off.

Awfully patronizing of you to identify large swaths of kids for whom you think "college isn't a good fit." Bet your own kid isn't in that group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Pp you quoted. My last point precisely said what you did regarding income inequality. I know that's a huge market signal in this country that tells everyone to go to college even if it might not be he most optimal course of action.

The reason why more jobs ask for masters degrees now a days is precisely because of the flooding of ug degrees. For most jobs it's just a way to reduce the number of applicants to a more manageable level.

Furthermore quality grad degrees are filled with good students from quality ug programs - flooding the ug system with more and more kids for whom college is not the best answer isn't going to increase the quality of grad students.

But yes, until we fix the wage disparity between "college educated" and the trades/blue collar work, parents and kids will do anything to go to college - even if it means crushing financial decisions that more and more might not pay off.

How about, instead of adopting Europe's system where fewer kids go to college, instead we address the root causes of inequality in this country?

[Anonymous]

How about hiw SAT scores OP?
Teachers can be quite subjective, especially in the social sciences/literary essays. It is no secret that teachers can boost or deflate the grades depending on how they perceive or like the student.
Universities know this.
So if the SAT/ACT scores are high, the university will definitely notice it.

[Anonymous]

Sounds to me like he would be better off in a cc and living at home for at least a year. Better than flunking out at a school that he gets into.

[Anonymous]

Don't worry too much. Many "C" students become the bosses of "A" students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't worry too much. Many "C" students become the bosses of "A" students.

Don't listen to worn-out cliches very much, either. If the "C" student gets mediocre grades because he lacks a work ethic, this will hold him back from anything he wants to do.

[Anonymous]

Is he on medication for ADD? I'd start there and see how that will help.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like he's got a real future in GOP electoral politics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like he's got a real future in GOP electoral politics.

Unless he has one AA parent, in which case he's a perfect applicant to transfer to Columbia, then on to Harvard Law to edit the law review (without contributing) and from there? Who knows? Maybe become President and run the country into the ground while perfecting his golf game? The sky' is the limit for C students with the right hooks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like he's got a real future in GOP electoral politics.

LOL

[Anonymous]

I disagree with those who recommend CC for this type of student. Studies show that the large majority of students who begin at CC AND say that their goal is to transfer and earn a Bachelor's degree, never complete college. My guess would be that many of the exceptions are extremely strong students with no money or in this day and age, ( in places like Montgomery County, MD), it could be a very strong student who has parents who came to this country illegally, and now is eligible (with some caveats) to get in state tuition as long as they start at MC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like he's got a real future in GOP electoral politics.

Unless he has one AA parent, in which case he's a perfect applicant to transfer to Columbia, then on to Harvard Law to edit the law review (without contributing) and from there? Who knows? Maybe become President and run the country into the ground while perfecting his golf game? The sky' is the limit for C students with the right hooks.

+10000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like he's got a real future in GOP electoral politics.

Unless he has one AA parent, in which case he's a perfect applicant to transfer to Columbia, then on to Harvard Law to edit the law review (without contributing) and from there? Who knows? Maybe become President and run the country into the ground while perfecting his golf game? The sky' is the limit for C students with the right hooks.

+10000

Obama had C's at Occidental, just like W had C's at Yale? Who knew?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How are his SAT scores? Many bright ADD kids do poorly with the day-to-day but do well on standardized tests. If he is like that, try to find a four-year school that will take him based on test performance/potential and provide some ongoing support. Enlist help from a placement counselor who knows how to help place LD kids. Look into the possibility of having him start at a four year school as a non-degree candidate with the option to transfer to a degree program if he makes a certain GPA. If he is bright but not applying himself, you might be surprised by what he can pull off outside the constraints of high school and in an academic area that interests him.

I was a poor high school student due to undiagnosed ADD(technically still undiagnosed but quite obvious to me now), which was exacerbated by typical high school distractions--mostly an acute interest in my social life and ongoing power struggles with my mother. I got into a decent, middle-tier state university based on test scores and graduated with honors. I think I just needed the new academic challenges and freedoms that a four-year school provided to start making grades a priority. I later went on to a top tier grad program. I often felt like I had to work hard to fight my natural tendency to get distracted, but it's easier to fight ADD when you can study things you're interested in. Also, ADD types often do better with assessments once or twice each semester rather than the daily quizzes and homework assignments that come with many high school and community college models.

I would avoid community college if the kid is bright but underperforming. The lack of challenge and possibly some embarrassment (depending on what his peers will be doing) may cause him to check out from academics even further than he already has.

Thanks very much for this post! Our guidance counselor isn't too much help, so I am wondering where we could find a placement counselor. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.