Secular Scouting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Look, attitudes toward homosexuals have evolved a lot as of late in this country. Many people aren't quite comfortable with the extent of social change (esp on marriage), and you have to acknowledge their viewpoint even if you don't agree. Moreover, the Scouts in rejecting homosexuals as scout leaders are perhaps being overly cautious so as to avoid getting caught up in the extent of problems that the Catholic church has had with predator priests.

Being overly cautious about what, though. Overly cautious about the safety of boys around homosexuals? Because they are more likely predators, hence the comparison to what you call "predator priests"? Do you understand how discriminatory that is?

And if parents aren't comfortable with gay leaders or fellow Scouts who are gay they can skip Scouting. Conversely, if a parent isn't comfortable with Boy Scouts having rules that prohibit involvement based on sexuality, then they can skip it, too. I think many who are involved don't agree with the latter, but continue because they pretend the national level is fully removed from the local level.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:In time, being a member of the Boy Scouts will be viewed similarly to being in the KKK a few decades ago. Pan average person could do it for purely social reasons, but the organization has a backwards and discriminatory bent. Your kids will be marked.

Nah. As long as it's a place for socially awkward boys to go there will be a demand for it. Parents want their kids to fit in more than they want to make a statement.

Yeah. Neil Armstrong, President Ford, Justice Breyer, Robert Gates were all socially awkward.

I see more SN boys in Scouting than in any other single activity. There is some structure and always a slew of parents attending events. All parents are expected to be authority figures so in theory there is better management of a group of kids. Of course, typically the den meetings and pack meetings are nothing short of chaos with brief stretches of organized activity. For having a place where their kid is accepted more easily than, for example, in a traditional sport, I doubt these parents are going to make a political stand. They play the "the national policies don't filter down to our pack/den level so we're OK with it" card.


What ARE you trying to say? I've read your post three times. Yes, some packs have SN kids. Shockingly, some schools even have them. My God, there may even be some SN kids living right on your own street. Honestly. . .

There are even packs set up FOR SN kids only.

At the Cub Scout level, the meetings are chaotic but adults are in charge. By the time you get into high school you most likely will be in a boy-lead troop meaning the Senior Patrol Leader, a high school student, is in charge of setting up and running the meeting himself. The young men are, by then, all well-behaved. They have helped each other in the Eagle scouts and everyone makes an attempt to attend every Eagle ceremony and dinner after. It has been a wonderful experience for our DS, from cub years thru starting Eagle project now. What "political stand" are you talking about? BSA now allows gay boy scouts in. Has the issue ever been discussed in our troop or amongst parents? No. is the troop open to a gay scout. Yes. So what's your beef about scouting. It has completely changed my son's life.

So I don't think BS is going anywhere.

My post was in response to the person who suggested the BS would be akin to the KKK, a shrinking and shameful organization. That isn't so, IMO. There are too many boys who start Cubs and Weebs, even with the membership fall off at Boy Scouts for the organization to disappear.

One reason for the strong numbers, especially in the younger grades, is parents looking for a place for their quirky sons to fit in while being surrounding by involved parents. No shame in that. But what I also touched on was the fact that parents will downplay the Scouts position on homosexuality and inclusion of a higher power. Yes, gay Scouts are allowed into the organization, but as soon as they graduate out of the program they are not allowed to be leaders or officially involved with the boys. How is that tolerant? "Hey, Eagle Scout, you have been deeply involved in this organization for most of your life, but you're really not the type of person we want around the boys now that you are a gay MAN."

How is that not an offputting stance for those who support gay equality? So those who report to be outraged by gay discrimination but keep their boys in Scouts because "it's not like that in OUR pack" are putting their child's needs before making a stand. I'm not criticizing, I'd do the same, but it is what it is.

It's called legal liability my dear. Do you want your son in a pup tent alone with an older gay man? Even if nothing happens, the boy could accuse the Scout Leader. BSA has wrestled with this for years but because camping is such a big component of scouting, BSA can't figure out a way to ensure that all the boys are safe in camping situations. Did you know that a Boy Scout father-leader cannot be put in a tent with a boy other than his son? Again, it's liability. One one camping trip my DH had to go sleep in his car because the only available tents had boys other than his son in them. That's not allowed. BSA leaders have to go through serious on-site training.

Legal liability applies to all men who are allowed to be involved in the first place, but what about the ones who aren't allowed to be involved at all because they are gay? Can you explain how that is a legal liability issue?

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thanks for the input all, unfortunately I'm not sure I'm any closer to the answer on this one. We looked into the secular "scouting" organizations and it seems there are none in our immediate area and starting our own, secular group, feels off. Remember, this is the troop all of his buddies are going to be in, where their older brothers are already members. I already worry that I'm raising my child in a manner that makes him a minority, or sets him apart, and I really don't want to come off as militant about this to him, or to others. I don't want him to have to say "Oh, I can't do that with you guys because my parents are nut-jobs that can't handle the word 'God' being uttered in their presence." It feels like a hard line to draw in some ways.

Through a long process of debate and reflection, my husband and I have concluded it's important to us, for many reasons, to own up to and be open about our atheism. That stated, I don't think my 6 year old should walk around claiming he denies the existence of a higher power. We've convinced him it's best that he decide this matter on his own only when he's much older and has learned a lot more about the world, religion, humanity, science, etc. and I'm proud to say that he seems to get that: "I'm still deciding." If the troop is soft-handed about religion, then I really want to say "no biggie then" right?

But then, PP points out that technically, his parents aren't allowed in the organization because of our BELIEFS. They'd never deny a Muslim kid, or a Jewish Dad, but my husband (who IS an Eagle Scout mind you!) should technically not be allowed near the popcorn and should be turning in his badge. At some point my guy will be asked to say the oath alone, and he'll have to find those 6 people to testify to his scout-worthiness, and perhaps he'll be old enough then, to make his own decision about the matter, but it feels like I'm setting him up to either have to be hypocritical, or make himself an example. I don't want him to have to falter when asked those questions, I want him to be able to confidently say "I'm STILL deciding" without it costing him an entire community.

Aside from the religious part, I have no issue with the definition the scouts use of Morally straight that a pp posted: "To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance." But isn't this in itself hypocritical? What about my right to not believe in God, and to be HONEST about that? That the Scouts won't abide... I am OK being the example of a person who is honest and open, law abiding, trustworthy, and caring, WITHOUT faith, I'm just not so sure I'm comfortable setting my child up to have to be an example of that as well.

Perhaps I'm thinking this though way too much, it may have become symbolic for all of my anxieties about how we are parenting. I'm OK walking away from this, but I really don't want him to miss out! My husband said something to me yesterday that really struck a chord: he stated that even when his faith faltered, and eventually died, "Do a good turn daily" always made sense to him, and he lives his life in a way that shows that. I want the same for my kid, ESPECIALLY for my kid, who doesn't belong to a church but still deserves a caring community with shared values and a sense of belonging.

So... we debate on. Perhaps we give it a shot and see how it feels? and I will talk to the local troop leader. Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


It's called legal liability my dear. Do you want your son in a pup tent alone with an older gay man? Even if nothing happens, the boy could accuse the Scout Leader. BSA has wrestled with this for years but because camping is such a big component of scouting, BSA can't figure out a way to ensure that all the boys are safe in camping situations. Did you know that a Boy Scout father-leader cannot be put in a tent with a boy other than his son? Again, it's liability. One one camping trip my DH had to go sleep in his car because the only available tents had boys other than his son in them. That's not allowed. BSA leaders have to go through serious on-site training.

Our friends have two DDs and the dad wanted to be involved with their Girl Scout troops. He even took the GS parent training classes, for the super-involved parents. But at no point is he ever allowed to be alone with a girl. There has to be another, female, parent leader with him whenever he's with the girls. He doesn't have a problem with this, because it also protects him (and he's a lawyer).