How do you relate Faith vs. Grace to experiences in your life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't connect grace to specific events but rather to my self and my state of being. Grace to me is like getting an unexpected special bonus gift. If you got it all the time, it would no longer to unexpected or special or a gift. I see it as a bonus gift that goes along with having a personal relationship with JC.

To me grace is when I am going through something difficult and God just fills my heart and mine with peace. It doesn't mean the difficulty is gone but that I have a stillness, a calmness and a peace that encompasses me. Other times I really have to work hard to get to a place of peace and calm and I may never get there or I partially get there then something happens and my peace is gone. The gift of peace is just amazing compared to the hard earned peace so I consider it grace.

Same might be true of forgiveness. Sometimes when I am burdened by guilt or shame, it is just lifted from me. Gone. I have wrestled with the feelings related to an issue for a long time to have all those feelings just vanish in an instant and never return. That is grace. Other times I have to really work and wallow through the guilt or shame or pain and slowly figure it out and come out the other side, often still with lingering feelings.

Faith to me is just trust. Not trust that certain things will or won't happen but trust in a relationship. So far in my 40 years of living nothing I have accomplished, noting I have desired, nothing I have acquired, nothing I have experienced compares to my relationship with JC so I have trust or faith in Him and in that relationship. And that relationship is founded on faith.

I don't believe that God ever promised a smooth easy life. He promised strength, rest, peace, love, grace, light, and to be there with us as we go through the highs and lows, the peaks and valleys of life.

I get all of that without JC.

Also, I have my family and friends (and nurses and doctors and public servants, when needed) to be there for me - and they are actually visible and can provide concrete assistance.

I am the Pp you are quoting and I also have great family and friends and many others there to support me and provide assistance. None of that even remotely comes close to what I get from JC. Basically if you only have had the experience of friends and family then you can't compare the two. My relationship with JC is obviously a faith-based one and not the same as how I relate to the people who are around me, - they compliment each other.

I have a pretty great life and a strong support network. It isn't to fill something missing in my life.

It's adding an imaginary friend -- and if it makes you feel better, why not.

If you don't believe you don't believe. I get that. Some people believe in ghosts or in other paranormal activity - I don't. To each their own.

FYI: God is paranormal -- he's just more popular than other ghosts. Sort of like the difference between Bob Dylan and the guy who plays at your local pub -- both are musicians

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't connect grace to specific events but rather to my self and my state of being. Grace to me is like getting an unexpected special bonus gift. If you got it all the time, it would no longer to unexpected or special or a gift. I see it as a bonus gift that goes along with having a personal relationship with JC.

To me grace is when I am going through something difficult and God just fills my heart and mine with peace. It doesn't mean the difficulty is gone but that I have a stillness, a calmness and a peace that encompasses me. Other times I really have to work hard to get to a place of peace and calm and I may never get there or I partially get there then something happens and my peace is gone. The gift of peace is just amazing compared to the hard earned peace so I consider it grace.

Same might be true of forgiveness. Sometimes when I am burdened by guilt or shame, it is just lifted from me. Gone. I have wrestled with the feelings related to an issue for a long time to have all those feelings just vanish in an instant and never return. That is grace. Other times I have to really work and wallow through the guilt or shame or pain and slowly figure it out and come out the other side, often still with lingering feelings.

Faith to me is just trust. Not trust that certain things will or won't happen but trust in a relationship. So far in my 40 years of living nothing I have accomplished, noting I have desired, nothing I have acquired, nothing I have experienced compares to my relationship with JC so I have trust or faith in Him and in that relationship. And that relationship is founded on faith.

I don't believe that God ever promised a smooth easy life. He promised strength, rest, peace, love, grace, light, and to be there with us as we go through the highs and lows, the peaks and valleys of life.

I get all of that without JC.

Also, I have my family and friends (and nurses and doctors and public servants, when needed) to be there for me - and they are actually visible and can provide concrete assistance.

I am the Pp you are quoting and I also have great family and friends and many others there to support me and provide assistance. None of that even remotely comes close to what I get from JC. Basically if you only have had the experience of friends and family then you can't compare the two. My relationship with JC is obviously a faith-based one and not the same as how I relate to the people who are around me, - they compliment each other.

I have a pretty great life and a strong support network. It isn't to fill something missing in my life.

It's adding an imaginary friend -- and if it makes you feel better, why not.

If you don't believe you don't believe. I get that. Some people believe in ghosts or in other paranormal activity - I don't. To each their own.

FYI: God is paranormal -- he's just more popular than other ghosts. Sort of like the difference between Bob Dylan and the guy who plays at your local pub -- both are musicians

You are welcome to your perceptions and beliefs. I don't share them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NP here. That's nice for you 11:38 PP, but I am far from the only person who has gone through parts of life without family or friends and with nobody to turn to, but personally I feel at those times I was sustained by grace. Didn't really have faith at those times either. Being sustained through very difficult passages built my faith.

Nothing you could opine would really impact my assessment of my personal experience.

I really do hope that in 100 years, maybe less, this kind of thinking will be rare that people who feel this way will be reluctant to speak up about it -- sort of the way people are about fairies now. If you thought fairies helped you sort out your life, you probably wouldn't talk about it much.

Well, I hate to pop your bubble, but that's not going to happen -- not that you or I will be here in 100 years to verify of course. But the problem with your hope is that it denies the truth. Jesus Christ and His followers have been around since before his death, some 2000 years ago. That is because the truth ultimately prevails, and lives on.

[Anonymous]

For a long time I was a non-believer -- I couldn't believe anyone really believed that God stuff. Now I have come to accept that they really believe it just as throughly as I believe that it makes no sense.

Facts cannot convince people one way or the other, since the same facts that convince us non-believers that God is imaginary convince the believers of the absolute truth of God. What we see and how we interpret it depends on our basic understanding of reality. For some, it is manifest that God exists, for others, the opposite.

It is good to try to understand each other, but trying to convince each other is more likely to have negative results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For a long time I was a non-believer -- I couldn't believe anyone really believed that God stuff. Now I have come to accept that they really believe it just as throughly as I believe that it makes no sense.

Facts cannot convince people one way or the other, since the same facts that convince us non-believers that God is imaginary convince the believers of the absolute truth of God. What we see and how we interpret it depends on our basic understanding of reality. For some, it is manifest that God exists, for others, the opposite.

It is good to try to understand each other, but trying to convince each other is more likely to have negative results.

What I see here is not non-believers trying to convince believers, but non-believers being straightforward about their point of view -- something that's often hard face to face - especially in this society where it's perfectly socially acceptable to talk about God and Jesus as if they are real people who are doing magic tricks -- miracles, that is -- for people who have faith in them. But it's not so acceptable to express lack of belief in miracle, the supernatural or Jesus.

And I'm pretty sure talking about it does change some people's minds -- because a lot of non-believers were once believers -- so obviously minds can change. And maybe not always the minds of the people talking back and forth, but some of the people listening in. And maybe not now, but later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NP here. That's nice for you 11:38 PP, but I am far from the only person who has gone through parts of life without family or friends and with nobody to turn to, but personally I feel at those times I was sustained by grace. Didn't really have faith at those times either. Being sustained through very difficult passages built my faith.

Nothing you could opine would really impact my assessment of my personal experience.

I really do hope that in 100 years, maybe less, this kind of thinking will be rare that people who feel this way will be reluctant to speak up about it -- sort of the way people are about fairies now. If you thought fairies helped you sort out your life, you probably wouldn't talk about it much.

Well, I hate to pop your bubble, but that's not going to happen -- not that you or I will be here in 100 years to verify of course. But the problem with your hope is that it denies the truth. Jesus Christ and His followers have been around since before his death, some 2000 years ago. That is because the truth ultimately prevails, and lives on.

The Roman Empire helped a lot, too -- then the vatican kicked in. Plus, burning people at the stake who didn't believe kept a lot of non-believers quiet. Also, Don't forget, there are religions that are older than Christianity - Buddhism, for example, predates Christianity by 4 centuries -- so that truth is prevailing too and living on. But does it make it a truer religion because it is older?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a long time I was a non-believer -- I couldn't believe anyone really believed that God stuff. Now I have come to accept that they really believe it just as throughly as I believe that it makes no sense.

Facts cannot convince people one way or the other, since the same facts that convince us non-believers that God is imaginary convince the believers of the absolute truth of God. What we see and how we interpret it depends on our basic understanding of reality. For some, it is manifest that God exists, for others, the opposite.

It is good to try to understand each other, but trying to convince each other is more likely to have negative results.

What I see here is not non-believers trying to convince believers, but non-believers being straightforward about their point of view -- something that's often hard face to face - especially in this society where it's perfectly socially acceptable to talk about God and Jesus as if they are real people who are doing magic tricks -- miracles, that is -- for people who have faith in them. But it's not so acceptable to express lack of belief in miracle, the supernatural or Jesus.

And I'm pretty sure talking about it does change some people's minds -- because a lot of non-believers were once believers -- so obviously minds can change. And maybe not always the minds of the people talking back and forth, but some of the people listening in. And maybe not now, but later.

I see it the opposite. It makes non believers quite uncomfortable which is why they come into a thread about faith and grace and start talking about imaginary friends and making other atheistic comments that aren't really related to the thread topic. they come across to me as very uncomfortable with people having positive experiences and to deal with that discomfort they put down the beliefs of others. Minds can change in both directions. Atheists become Christians and vice versa. however the definition of Christian means many things to many people whereas atheists have a much tighter definition of their beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a long time I was a non-believer -- I couldn't believe anyone really believed that God stuff. Now I have come to accept that they really believe it just as throughly as I believe that it makes no sense.

Facts cannot convince people one way or the other, since the same facts that convince us non-believers that God is imaginary convince the believers of the absolute truth of God. What we see and how we interpret it depends on our basic understanding of reality. For some, it is manifest that God exists, for others, the opposite.

It is good to try to understand each other, but trying to convince each other is more likely to have negative results.

What I see here is not non-believers trying to convince believers, but non-believers being straightforward about their point of view -- something that's often hard face to face - especially in this society where it's perfectly socially acceptable to talk about God and Jesus as if they are real people who are doing magic tricks -- miracles, that is -- for people who have faith in them. But it's not so acceptable to express lack of belief in miracle, the supernatural or Jesus.

And I'm pretty sure talking about it does change some people's minds -- because a lot of non-believers were once believers -- so obviously minds can change. And maybe not always the minds of the people talking back and forth, but some of the people listening in. And maybe not now, but later.

I see it the opposite. It makes non believers quite uncomfortable which is why they come into a thread about faith and grace and start talking about imaginary friends and making other atheistic comments that aren't really related to the thread topic. they come across to me as very uncomfortable with people having positive experiences and to deal with that discomfort they put down the beliefs of others. Minds can change in both directions. Atheists become Christians and vice versa. however the definition of Christian means many things to many people whereas atheists have a much tighter definition of their beliefs.

if a tighter definition means fact-based, then I agree. I also agree that the definition of Christian -- and many other religions -- can mean many things, because people just make things up to suit themselves. Some people believe in heaven but not hell. They think they'll go to heaven because they believe but their atheist friends will just die. Others believe very firmly in heaven and hell. There's all kinds of individualized beliefs out there, despite the many rules that religion applies.

Please consider that non-believers refer to God as an imaginary friend, because that's just what he seems like - invisible and reflects your own feelings - provides company when no one else is around. makes you feel special. Minds can change in both directions, but the trend is religious to non-religious as people learn more about science and how religions came to be. Churches are emptying out and fewer parents are raising their kids with religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a long time I was a non-believer -- I couldn't believe anyone really believed that God stuff. Now I have come to accept that they really believe it just as throughly as I believe that it makes no sense.

Facts cannot convince people one way or the other, since the same facts that convince us non-believers that God is imaginary convince the believers of the absolute truth of God. What we see and how we interpret it depends on our basic understanding of reality. For some, it is manifest that God exists, for others, the opposite.

It is good to try to understand each other, but trying to convince each other is more likely to have negative results.

What I see here is not non-believers trying to convince believers, but non-believers being straightforward about their point of view -- something that's often hard face to face - especially in this society where it's perfectly socially acceptable to talk about God and Jesus as if they are real people who are doing magic tricks -- miracles, that is -- for people who have faith in them. But it's not so acceptable to express lack of belief in miracle, the supernatural or Jesus.

And I'm pretty sure talking about it does change some people's minds -- because a lot of non-believers were once believers -- so obviously minds can change. And maybe not always the minds of the people talking back and forth, but some of the people listening in. And maybe not now, but later.

I see it the opposite. It makes non believers quite uncomfortable which is why they come into a thread about faith and grace and start talking about imaginary friends and making other atheistic comments that aren't really related to the thread topic. they come across to me as very uncomfortable with people having positive experiences and to deal with that discomfort they put down the beliefs of others. Minds can change in both directions. Atheists become Christians and vice versa. however the definition of Christian means many things to many people whereas atheists have a much tighter definition of their beliefs.

if a tighter definition means fact-based, then I agree. I also agree that the definition of Christian -- and many other religions -- can mean many things, because people just make things up to suit themselves. Some people believe in heaven but not hell. They think they'll go to heaven because they believe but their atheist friends will just die. Others believe very firmly in heaven and hell. There's all kinds of individualized beliefs out there, despite the many rules that religion applies.

Please consider that non-believers refer to God as an imaginary friend, because that's just what he seems like - invisible and reflects your own feelings - provides company when no one else is around. makes you feel special. Minds can change in both directions, but the trend is religious to non-religious as people learn more about science and how religions came to be. Churches are emptying out and fewer parents are raising their kids with religion.

Perhaps not relevant, but remember that just because religious people may appear to you to be "making things up to suit themselves," that does not mean that they are correctly following the word of God, which is in and of itself quite clear with many facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a long time I was a non-believer -- I couldn't believe anyone really believed that God stuff. Now I have come to accept that they really believe it just as throughly as I believe that it makes no sense.

Facts cannot convince people one way or the other, since the same facts that convince us non-believers that God is imaginary convince the believers of the absolute truth of God. What we see and how we interpret it depends on our basic understanding of reality. For some, it is manifest that God exists, for others, the opposite.

It is good to try to understand each other, but trying to convince each other is more likely to have negative results.

What I see here is not non-believers trying to convince believers, but non-believers being straightforward about their point of view -- something that's often hard face to face - especially in this society where it's perfectly socially acceptable to talk about God and Jesus as if they are real people who are doing magic tricks -- miracles, that is -- for people who have faith in them. But it's not so acceptable to express lack of belief in miracle, the supernatural or Jesus.

And I'm pretty sure talking about it does change some people's minds -- because a lot of non-believers were once believers -- so obviously minds can change. And maybe not always the minds of the people talking back and forth, but some of the people listening in. And maybe not now, but later.

I see it the opposite. It makes non believers quite uncomfortable which is why they come into a thread about faith and grace and start talking about imaginary friends and making other atheistic comments that aren't really related to the thread topic. they come across to me as very uncomfortable with people having positive experiences and to deal with that discomfort they put down the beliefs of others. Minds can change in both directions. Atheists become Christians and vice versa. however the definition of Christian means many things to many people whereas atheists have a much tighter definition of their beliefs.

if a tighter definition means fact-based, then I agree. I also agree that the definition of Christian -- and many other religions -- can mean many things, because people just make things up to suit themselves. Some people believe in heaven but not hell. They think they'll go to heaven because they believe but their atheist friends will just die. Others believe very firmly in heaven and hell. There's all kinds of individualized beliefs out there, despite the many rules that religion applies.

Please consider that non-believers refer to God as an imaginary friend, because that's just what he seems like - invisible and reflects your own feelings - provides company when no one else is around. makes you feel special. Minds can change in both directions, but the trend is religious to non-religious as people learn more about science and how religions came to be. Churches are emptying out and fewer parents are raising their kids with religion.

Perhaps not relevant, but remember that just because religious people may appear to you to be "making things up to suit themselves," that does not mean that they are correctly following the word of God, which is in and of itself quite clear with many facts.

If the word of God were clear, there wouldn't be so many interpretations of it and so many arguments about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't connect grace to specific events but rather to my self and my state of being. Grace to me is like getting an unexpected special bonus gift. If you got it all the time, it would no longer to unexpected or special or a gift. I see it as a bonus gift that goes along with having a personal relationship with JC.

To me grace is when I am going through something difficult and God just fills my heart and mine with peace. It doesn't mean the difficulty is gone but that I have a stillness, a calmness and a peace that encompasses me. Other times I really have to work hard to get to a place of peace and calm and I may never get there or I partially get there then something happens and my peace is gone. The gift of peace is just amazing compared to the hard earned peace so I consider it grace.

Same might be true of forgiveness. Sometimes when I am burdened by guilt or shame, it is just lifted from me. Gone. I have wrestled with the feelings related to an issue for a long time to have all those feelings just vanish in an instant and never return. That is grace. Other times I have to really work and wallow through the guilt or shame or pain and slowly figure it out and come out the other side, often still with lingering feelings.

Faith to me is just trust. Not trust that certain things will or won't happen but trust in a relationship. So far in my 40 years of living nothing I have accomplished, noting I have desired, nothing I have acquired, nothing I have experienced compares to my relationship with JC so I have trust or faith in Him and in that relationship. And that relationship is founded on faith.

I don't believe that God ever promised a smooth easy life. He promised strength, rest, peace, love, grace, light, and to be there with us as we go through the highs and lows, the peaks and valleys of life.

I get all of that without JC.

Also, I have my family and friends (and nurses and doctors and public servants, when needed) to be there for me - and they are actually visible and can provide concrete assistance.

I am the Pp you are quoting and I also have great family and friends and many others there to support me and provide assistance. None of that even remotely comes close to what I get from JC. Basically if you only have had the experience of friends and family then you can't compare the two. My relationship with JC is obviously a faith-based one and not the same as how I relate to the people who are around me, - they compliment each other.

I have a pretty great life and a strong support network. It isn't to fill something missing in my life.

It's adding an imaginary friend -- and if it makes you feel better, why not.

If you don't believe you don't believe. I get that. Some people believe in ghosts or in other paranormal activity - I don't. To each their own.

FYI: God is paranormal -- he's just more popular than other ghosts. Sort of like the difference between Bob Dylan and the guy who plays at your local pub -- both are musicians

You are welcome to your perceptions and beliefs. I don't share them.

You don't think God is supernatural?