Anyone have a child who is in a highly competitive sport team?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like to see data on the matter of ultimate adult outcomes for people who were outstanding child and teen athletes. I believe there are outcome risks involved with the idea of too much success too early in life - something like what Springsteen sings about in "Glory Days". In aggregate there are probably equal numbers of people who become successful adults or not, from each cohort of children regardless of their individual athlete talents as children?!?!

There must be studies on this topic out there. If there are any people or psychologists in the DCUM community who have such knowledge it would be good to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

It would be interesting to see data. I know in hiring in some industries that people often look for sports team captains so that indicates that early success aids later success. My industry is still male dominated at the top and being able to demonstrate an interest in sports, or reference past glories, is surprisingly important.

Do people really list that they were captain of their high school sports team on their post collegiate resumes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not so much like playing football for a season, but a child who is a competitive dancer who goes to meets every other weekend, or a child who is training to become a high accomplished musician?

How do you do it?

I have a 7-year-old who goes to a local dance studio, and they are starting a competitive team and the owner asked my daughter to join the younger girls team. The schedule is insane, my daughter is begging me to allow it, but it's practice 5 days a week and meets almost every other weekend....not to mention the money that will go into this.

My good friend was a professional dancer and her 4th grader is on a team like that. I am BLOWN AWAY. I was on a very competitive travel soccer team growing up---4 summer away tournaments, year-round play, etc...and it was NOTHING like what she is doing for her daughter's dance team. Holy cow!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'd like to see data on the matter of ultimate adult outcomes for people who were outstanding child and teen athletes. I believe there are outcome risks involved with the idea of too much success too early in life - something like what Springsteen sings about in "Glory Days". In aggregate there are probably equal numbers of people who become successful adults or not, from each cohort of children regardless of their individual athlete talents as children?!?!

There must be studies on this topic out there. If there are any people or psychologists in the DCUM community who have such knowledge it would be good to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

Give me a break. We are friends with two former NFL players from good families, played at top colleges and are professionally successful. I come from a very athletic family that all were college athletes and everyone turned out very successful.

"Glory Days' is about a working class environment/steel town where HS is the peak for everyone.

Competitive sports provides discipline and commitment and time away from the hazards of teen drugs, alcohol, etc. Two of my nephews just got track scholarships this year to college and both made the Dean's list their first semester. Their good friend that was scholar, non-athelete, valedictorian did not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like to see data on the matter of ultimate adult outcomes for people who were outstanding child and teen athletes. I believe there are outcome risks involved with the idea of too much success too early in life - something like what Springsteen sings about in "Glory Days". In aggregate there are probably equal numbers of people who become successful adults or not, from each cohort of children regardless of their individual athlete talents as children?!?!

There must be studies on this topic out there. If there are any people or psychologists in the DCUM community who have such knowledge it would be good to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

Give me a break. We are friends with two former NFL players from good families, played at top colleges and are professionally successful. I come from a very athletic family that all were college athletes and everyone turned out very successful.

"Glory Days' is about a working class environment/steel town where HS is the peak for everyone.

Competitive sports provides discipline and commitment and time away from the hazards of teen drugs, alcohol, etc. Two of my nephews just got track scholarships this year to college and both made the Dean's list their first semester. Their good friend that was scholar, non-athelete, valedictorian did not.

All 3 of my kids are in travel sports. The time committment and expense is a heavy load for all of us. I totally agree with the last statement. Many of the best athletes are excellent students as well. And I think they do well in life for the experience of sports. Its not the end that matter so much as the travels getting there.

Other than the expense and time committment and logistics challenges, its the tryout process that causes anxiety every year. Unlike rec sports, kids are cut every year (and kids move up too). And sometimes they move kids midyear - argh! Its part of life too so my kids have adjusted to it.

My kids started in travel at 8 years old. It was young but certainly not 5 days a week (2 days a week practice + a game on weekend). Now its 3 days a week plus winter practices and summer camps.

I've rarely seen kids/families leave the program which amazes me as it is difficult. I think most families figure it out before they try out whether they want the experience and family obligation.

[Anonymous]

It is interesting that folks choose the sports aspect to harp on.

I raised 3 kids - 2 were travel club team level athletes (now playing in college) and the middle one was in an elite level orchestra program for 4 years.

As far as time commitment, financial resources, travel, the arms race regarding equipment, stress involving tryouts and competitions, and parent "douchery" and drama, the orchestra program was the "worst" by far. Yet, it was her "passion" so we went along with it when we should have nixed it. Now, she will not even pick up an instrument. It was horrible.

IMO, the sports experience was a far more healthy experience and taught more positive values.

I guess my point is that any experience can be bad or good. As parets, you have to be vigilant and make sure that whatever experience it is, is healthy for the child and beneficial.

FWIW for the OP: I think what your dance instructor is suggesting is "too much too young."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, google "competitive dance teams" and look at the pictures and videos. Little girls in expensive, often inappropriately sexy costumes and lots of makeup.

My friend's sister in law is a "dance mom" and no, the drama isn't there like it is on the show, but a lot of the other stuff is. Pushy moms (not that OP would be, but it speaks to the atmosphere), lots of pressure, and for what?

Meh, make up is for the stage lights. No big deal. Trust me, those girls are not running around in class or at school with fake eyelashes, red lipstick and glitter sparkle glam, even if the Dance Mom kids are.

Some of the costumes and dances are entirely inappropriate, but that is a direct result of specific coaches with poor judgement combined with irresponsible parents.

Most teams and studios are not that way. Dance Moms is just a caricature of the bad eggs.

In the same way that involvement in competitive sports will not make your kid a hazing bully with steroid issues, eating disorders and a nasty competitive, dominant disposition unless the coaches and parents are already bad people, competitive dance will not turn your daughter into a makeup obsessed, mean spirited, pageant type diva who likes to spend her time acting sexy while wearing as few clothes as possible. It is a silly generalization to make.

But, back to the original question, 5 days/week plus weekends for a novice 7 year old competitive dancer is a recipe for burnout and financial overload.

If you are interested, but not commited, see if your studio will consider a petite or min team that competes at the novice or recreational level. Those teams are for families that want to get their feet wet, and are not allowed to train more than 3-5 hours/week depending on the competition. They are adjudicated separately from the serious kids, and your dancer will still get valuable feedback from professional judges.

Also consider, if this team is for competition this season, and the kids are all novice, you are way, way too late in the game to achieve any type of success this year, even rehearsing 5 days/week. You will invest a lot of time and money only to get blown out of the water by the experienced teams that have been working on their routines since August or September.

When did dance become a competitive sport? I danced as a child, and it was only for a couple of recitals a year. DD and her cousins all dance fairly seriously, with class and rehearsal several days a week. One cousin has done some professional performances while still in high school. But none of these kids has danced competitively. They dance for artistic performances. Even the oldest one who is auditioning in NYC considering a full time dance career has never done a competitive team, and that does not seem to be a problem for her.

[Anonymous]

So to sum up it seems these are the questions to ponder:
- What are the opportunity costs to child (and family)? I.e., what is s/he giving up?
- Are there side benefits to the sport that s/he can obtain. If s/he were injured and couldn't compete at elite levels, would it have been worth it?
- Does it help or hurt self-esteem? If a girls' team, are there mean girls (think Gabby Douglas) and how will your daughter react?
- What are the financial costs, and if your child doesn't become an Olympian, or whatever the equivalent, will you wish you hadn't done it?

Our son competed at the international level in an academic area. Totally worth it. Niece spent huge numbers of hours in a sport that she is good at but was injured before reaching the top levels (national). Do I think she could have spent time doing other things? Yes. Did it help develop discipline and other good things? Yes. Is it an asset to her career aspirations - only 8in the sense she has drive. Would she give it up, in retrospect? Never.

[Anonymous]

We have kids that play fairly competitive club sports, but not extremely crazy - every night practices. Many family members played college sports and took advantage of the academic opportunities it brought as well as the joy of the sports and friendships.

We are like a PP - we try to balance it out - so they won't get burned out - metnally or physically. We believe in more cross training (ie., don't just do one sport all the time extreme competitive) - and thankfully there are trends that this view is picking up. Also missing games / or slowing down a season is better in the long run then never a break or time with family. Yes, some people (hypercomptetive parents?) say there is a risk in losing a kid's "poistion"- but we haven't found that to be the case. Daily sports makes for better academics for our kids personalities - clearer heads, more focus , more discpline, and goals.

In terms of long term impact, I work with a lot of very nice - successful, many executive level professionals and always interesting to see that most played sports high school and many college sports. Know a lot of former athletes that work out daily and have great resilience.

Personally, I think 7 is way too young for it to start and that amount of time seems extreme at that age - especially compared to most competitive sports academies/clubs, who at most would have 2 practices a week. 9-12 seems the better range to become more competitive.

[Anonymous]

This is an interesting thread and likely an issue that many of us are dealing with. My sense is that there is likely very little correlation between young competitive sports and later success as an athlete in high school, college or beyond. In talking (and reading) with athletes who were successful at a high level, some played competitively as kids and others didn't and I think if there were a large dataset, there would be no clear answer either way. Some kids will certainly get burned out by starting too early and being frustrated by the competition while other kids are likely to thrive beyond their natural abilities. The worst part of all of this is that a lot of the push for young competitive sports comes from the parents (no matter what they say). Some see college scholarships in their future, others think it is good for the kids but for way too many, there are bragging rights among peers that is all too sad. Oddly enough, this is rarely true for the kids themselves. and in my experience, the parents who push the most were typically not the most successful athletes, in fact, it is often the reverse because I think they understand that to be successful at a high level there has to be a passion and commitment that cannot be imposed. As one poster noted, there seems to be a modest movement away from concentrating on a single sport early in a kid's life, and that has to be to the good. Trying to select a child's athletic future when they are 8 or 9 seems crazy, and in terms of their development, playing multiple sports and using different muscles and playing with different kids is much better for them.

[Anonymous]

When did dance become a competitive sport?[b] I danced as a child, and it was only for a couple of recitals a year. DD and her cousins all dance fairly seriously, with class and rehearsal several days a week. One cousin has done some professional performances while still in high school. But none of these kids has danced competitively. They dance for artistic performances. Even the oldest one who is auditioning in NYC considering a full time dance career has never done a competitive team, and that does not seem to be a problem for her.

For about the past 15-20 years.

Your daughters must be in a pre pro or conservatory type program. Very different from a competitive studio. Although many of the serious ballet companies compete as well, just in a different format and only with the most experienced dancers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting thread and likely an issue that many of us are dealing with. My sense is that there is likely very little correlation between young competitive sports and later success as an athlete in high school, college or beyond.

You may be right, but I think there is a significant difference between being involved in competitive sports and the highly competitive sports that require a minimum of three hours a day six days a week commitment for a single sport. I think kids who are involved in that sort of thing (gymnastics and swim teams come to mind), do see success as they get older.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

When did dance become a competitive sport? I danced as a child, and it was only for a couple of recitals a year. DD and her cousins all dance fairly seriously, with class and rehearsal several days a week. One cousin has done some professional performances while still in high school. But none of these kids has danced competitively. They dance for artistic performances. Even the oldest one who is auditioning in NYC considering a full time dance career has never done a competitive team, and that does not seem to be a problem for her.

For about the past 15-20 years.

[b]Your daughters must be in a pre pro or conservatory type program. Very different from a competitive studio. Although many of the serious ballet companies compete as well, just in a different format and only with the most experienced dancers.

Yes, they are. DD and her cousins have a strong ballet focus, but study other techniques as well (except my nephew who does only ballet). What are the benefits of doing a competitive program vs a pre professional program?

[Anonymous]

I think the competitive programs just have a whiff of tacky about them, or maybe a tinge of cheerleading or something.

I would encourage pursuing dance in a conservatory or serious dance studio but I would never sink thousands of dollars in "competitive dance."

[Anonymous]

Yes, they are. DD and her cousins have a strong ballet focus, but study other techniques as well (except my nephew who does only ballet). What are the benefits of doing a competitive program vs a pre professional program?

There are many similar benefits to both types of programs, such as discipline, commitment, pushing oneself over months and years to become your best with little reward, etc. but there are differences. I think both types of programs are wonderfully different in their own ways and can benefit kids in different ways.

Competitive dance programs are fun. That is probably the biggest draw.

Many of the students involved in competitive dance truly enjoy the flash and rush of putting it all on the line for 2-3 minutes of glory. I am guessing that many of the competitive students, particularly the younger ones, would be bored with a conservatory approach.

Competitive programs move much faster on things like turns, leaps, etc., and girls get to do the cool moves that ballet programs usually reserve exclusively for male dancers.

On the flip side to this, often times the competitive programs do a wonderful job of keeping these kids interested in dance over soccer, etc, until they mature enough for more serious traditional training like your daughters are involved in or even more serious training within the competitive studio.

There is a focus on teamwork, improving through competition and adjudication, and doing your best to make the group do its best, where a conservatory program is more about individual improvement and little baby steps and building blocks in a classroom setting.

Competitive students usually are much more effective and strong entertainers than conservatory students, especially at the younger age. There is a great deal of time and training spent on being expressive, emoting and entertaining whatever audience you are performing for.

If the dancer is into hip hop or tap, competitive programs are usually much, much stronger than what you would find at a studio that specializes in ballet.

There are more frequent serious performing opportunities at competitive studios, where a 5-12 year old conservatory student would probably have at most a Nutcracker and a spring performance, and maybe something at the end of the summer intensive.

Competitive dancers usually study more genres, which can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. The good competitive studios actually require several hours of ballet, stretch, strength, toning, jazz, pilates, leaps and turns, etc each week, in addition to the routine rehearsals and extra technique classes for things like tap, hip hop, jazz, contemporary and acro. Where a conservatory student might spend 5-12 hours per week exclusively on ballet, plus Nutcracker rehearsals, a serious comp dancer would spend that same time at the studio, with about half of that time ballet, the other half technique classes in other disciplines, plus rehearsal time for routines.

Strong competitive studios (like Strictly Rhythm or Studio Blue in VA) produce wonderful, well-rounded dancers with strong commercial dance appeal and skills that translate very well into professional dance opportunities. Where a conservatory might be working towards training dancers who go into ballet companies or artistic dance companies, a competitive studio will often try to prepare dancers who will work in music videos, concert tours, cruise ships, Vegas shows, college dance teams, and professional NFL cheerleaders. Many of the dancers on So You Think You Can Dance are actually from competitive dance studios, and because of the styles and showmanship they have developed through competiting they usually beat the handful of ballet dancers that come through the door.

Those are just some of the ways in which a competitive program would be different from a conservatory program.

Of course, in the competitive world you have more variation as to the quality of training from studio to studio, but the high quality comp programs serve an important need in the dance world just as a conservatory program does.

[Anonymous]

One more thing, many people slam the costumes. For a young girl that likes to sparkle, the costumes might in fact be one of the biggest draw to the competitive team. They are really, really fun. I am sure that holds true for serious young ballet students too.