Judaism is a religion, not a race.

[Anonymous]

Sorry that should have read 1 in 400 in the general population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is making me see red.

1) To 14:47 -- No, it's not "a religion, bottom line."

I am Jewish (Ashkenazi) by ethnicity and not religious.

What does this mean? This means that when I tried to conceive I had to be more aware of Tay-Sachs and Gaucher's among others than, let's say, Italians. There is a whole host of these genetic disorders that are quite rare in the general population but not in the Ashkenazi population.

This means that breast cancer is a greater risk for me, and that is why I get special treatment from insurance companies -- one of the questions they ask is "Are you an Ashenazi Jew or descended from one?" That's because BRCA1 and BRCA2 are more common in Ashkenazi Jews -- 1 in 40 as opposed to the general population, which is 1 in 4000.

This means there is a genetic component to being Jewish.

2) To 14:52 and all the other people I have heard this from about not "being true Jews." You have NO idea what you are talking about. A JEW IS A JEW IS A JEW. It does not matter if I NEVER set foot in a temple or synagogue, I am a Jew. Not an observant Jew, not a religious Jew but a Jew. Judaism is NOT like Christianity, where anyone can join just by claiming faith. Christianity is a faith-based religion, Judaism is not. You are born a Jew. What you do with that is up to you.

And finally, there is no higher mortal authority in Judaism, no Pope. No one gets to tell anyone else that the way they are doing it is wrong. That is something Jews have been fighting about since the beginning of time and will continue to do so. Arguing over Jewish law is as much a part of being Jewish as anything else. No one gets to tell another Jew they are not "true Jews," certainly not some goy anonymous poster.

Non-Jew NP here. You seem a bit hostile (and I can understand why), but this is a very good explanation. I've always wondered why my atheist friend is raising his kids Jewish, which made no sense to me. Yes, I've asked, and been told "you aren't Jewish so you just don't get it". I still don't totally get it, but I'm a little closer now. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So tired of this. People who think that Jews are members of the Jewish Race are incredibly misinformed.

Take it up with your fellow Jews who talk about it as a race.

[Anonymous]

If your mother is Jewish, then according to Jewish cultural norms (excepting reform), you are a Jew, whatever your personal beliefs are.

[Anonymous]

As an Italian, when I was pregnant, I was tested for a blood disorder that sometimes presents itself in Italians and blacks. So your point is?

Tay-Sachs comes from breeding w/in the same cluster of people. Hemophilia is a "Russian" disorder. why? b/c Russians are breeding with other Russians

Jews come from all over. You have just associated YOUR Judaism with Europeans - mainly Germans. There are Sephardic Jews, too, who are connected to the Middle East.

So you have no point.

the Wandering Jew? Your people come from all over. But when a group STAYS in a certain area and continues to marry others w/in that area, genetics become a major factor. If I lived in Israeli and married a Jew. And if we had kids who married other Jews, don't you think that my half-Catholic children would have the genetic make up to quite possibly pass along Tay-Sachs?

Stop thinking you're special. You're no more special than I am.

Anonymous wrote:This thread is making me see red.

1) To 14:47 -- No, it's not "a religion, bottom line."

I am Jewish (Ashkenazi) by ethnicity and not religious.

What does this mean? This means that when I tried to conceive I had to be more aware of Tay-Sachs and Gaucher's among others than, let's say, Italians. There is a whole host of these genetic disorders that are quite rare in the general population but not in the Ashkenazi population.

This means that breast cancer is a greater risk for me, and that is why I get special treatment from insurance companies -- one of the questions they ask is "Are you an Ashenazi Jew or descended from one?" That's because BRCA1 and BRCA2 are more common in Ashkenazi Jews -- 1 in 40 as opposed to the general population, which is 1 in 4000.

This means there is a genetic component to being Jewish.

2) To 14:52 and all the other people I have heard this from about not "being true Jews." You have NO idea what you are talking about. A JEW IS A JEW IS A JEW. It does not matter if I NEVER set foot in a temple or synagogue, I am a Jew. Not an observant Jew, not a religious Jew but a Jew. Judaism is NOT like Christianity, where anyone can join just by claiming faith. Christianity is a faith-based religion, Judaism is not. You are born a Jew. What you do with that is up to you.

And finally, there is no higher mortal authority in Judaism, no Pope. No one gets to tell anyone else that the way they are doing it is wrong. That is something Jews have been fighting about since the beginning of time and will continue to do so. Arguing over Jewish law is as much a part of being Jewish as anything else. No one gets to tell another Jew they are not "true Jews," certainly not some goy anonymous poster.

[Anonymous]

Why are you guys fighting over this? Isn't society divisive enough as it is? As I said on page 1, just let everyone self-identify and call it a day.

[Anonymous]

To 15:58--- The poster with hostility is you. No one is saying the Jews are more special than others. It looks like you misinterpreted the other poster's post. And by the way, "The Wandering Jew" was a propaganda film the Nazis made to denigrate Jews. Although my guess is that you used the term "wandering Jew" out of ignorance and with no malicious intent, you should know the the term "wandering Jew" is considered anti-semetic.

[Anonymous]

I am the "hostile" Jewish poster. I have taken a deep breath.

I was ticked off, and it showed, but please excuse my hostility.

It is hard to be a minority where people are constantly blathering on about your legitimacy, whether you are "real" or "true." Also, calling you inbred.

I think, having been brought up in an almost entirely Jewish town, in a very Jewish metropolitan area, I sort of took for granted that most people had a working knowledge of Judaism.

I now know this is not the case at all.

Now to address 15:58, who really needs to take some graduate classes or something:

In-breeding, where the heck did you get that? From the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? (Crap, my hostility is showing again.) You should know that this is one of the ugliest stereotypes about Jews that have been floated around. Along with Jews eating Christians blood for Passover. I am really sorry 15:38, I am trying not to be hostile, but this is just wrong.

So here are three pretty good theories on how Tay-Sachs became so prevalent in Ashkenazi Jews:

http://darwinstudents.blogspot.com/2009/06/tay-sachs-disease-in-ashkenazi-jews.html

Here's an article about the high prevalence of TS in French Canadians in Quebec, and what that might tell us about Ashkenazi Jews:

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=21701

I am aware that there are Sephardic Jews (and Mizrahi Jews too). If you are genuinely interested in the role DNA plays in Jewish identity, check out this link:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48535683/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/genetic-map-paints-intricate-picture-jewish-migration/

As the author points out:

"Non-Jews can convert to Judaism, but membership in the group is also passed down along a matrilineal line, meaning Jewishness straddles the line between religion, ethnicity and culture."

Of course, according to Reform Jews it is also passed down the Patrilineal line.

Anyway, I know it is hard to Christians to understand this, but Judaism and Christianity are not 1:1, they are apples to oranges. Christianity is driven by a belief in Jesus as a savior. Judaism is more complicated, but membership in the "tribe" is a if not the key component. That is why circumcision is such a hot topic, even for non-practicing Jews. Because many jewish parents are uncomfortable shutting that door for their son, even if they themselves are atheists. They know that the son of two Jewish atheists is still a Jew.

I recommend reading this article for a thoughtful take:

http://forward.com/articles/155742/jews-are-a-race-genes-reveal/?p=all

Finally, I have no idea what would happen to you if you moved to Israel and "married a Jew."

[Anonymous]

One more thing, I did not mean to give the impression that I was "special" because I had to undergo genetic counseling before I got pregnant, and b/c I have had so many breast cancer scares and get extra screening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One more thing, I did not mean to give the impression that I was "special" because I had to undergo genetic counseling before I got pregnant, and b/c I have had so many breast cancer scares and get extra screening.

I love you, and hope we're related. I'm from a very Jewish part of LI, NY, and it wasn't until I went upstate to a SUNY college that I realized how sheltered I'd been from people who don't understand the culture.

[Anonymous]

17:59 - Get over yourself.

We evolve as people. Our bodies adapt to our surroundings. Look at the Eskimos - http://anthro.palomar.edu/adapt/adapt_2.htm

In terms of Tay Sachs . . .

How common is Tay-Sachs disease?

Tay-Sachs disease is very rare in the general population. The genetic mutations that cause this disease are more common in people of Ashkenazi (eastern and central European) Jewish heritage than in those with other backgrounds. The mutations responsible for this disease are also more common in certain French-Canadian communities of Quebec, the Old Order Amish community in Pennsylvania, and the Cajun population of Louisiana.

So it's NOT specific to Jews.

And - How do people inherit Tay-Sachs disease?

This condition is inherited in an autosomal recessive pattern, which means both copies of the gene in each cell have mutations. The parents of an individual with an autosomal recessive condition each carry one copy of the mutated gene, but they typically do not show signs and symptoms of the condition.

So BOTH parents must have the gene. Again, area is important. A Jewish community will be insular.

And we have this:

Italians like Macri aren't the only Mediterranean descendants affected by blood disorders such as beta thalassemia. People of Greek, North African, Sephardic Jewish, and Arab descent have a higher incidence as well. The disease causes severe anemia and appears in infants in their first four to six months of life.

And this:

"Genes are very mobile," Glader explains. "What you see reflects history: the Romans travelled." The sickle gene arrived in Mediterranean countries from central West Africa through the trade routes across the Sahara. This may account for the occasional case of sickle cell disease among European Americans who trace their ancestry to southern Italy, Sicily, Turkey or Cyprus. Not all disease genes are identical by descent. The same mutation can occur more than once in the same or different populations.

[Anonymous]

Who is a Jew is a question that continues to confound even the Israelis.

[Anonymous]

wow, lots of people feeling sorry for themselves here

[Anonymous]

Getting back to OP's question, what do you put on paperwork asking race?

[Anonymous]

NP Jew here: I put white as my race, but I am ethnically Jewish. It bums me out that the main way I must educate my children about my ethnicity is through religion because I don't believe in god.