inappropriate talk in the office...but is it illegal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about if everyone else starts giving it back to her, but in a way that can be construed as hostile. When she says stuff, just look at her, and say things like, "it must be hard to be so full of hate", or, "really, you can't come up wih anything more original than that?" Don't refer to her age or health, but just react like she's harmless and move on. Have a list of comebacks ready and gang up on her by everyone using them when she acts up and otherwise ignoring her.

If it was a non-work environment I would say this would be an option. But, in a professional environment it's not a good idea and will add to the dysfunction of the office. Everyone else needs to keep professional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not illegal if she can argue that her comments are accurate.

i.e. if she can prove that the guy is "dumb" "lazy" and an "asshole", then the Judge would have to rule "Ita vero" and the case would be dismissed.

Ummm, no. This is not a question of defamation. It's a question of discrimination, and so far nothing the OP has said rises to the level of illegal discrimination. Truth is irrelevant. But even if it was, these are all opinion terms that cannot be proven or disproven. Hope you're not a lawyer...

I have very extensive legal training, and while I am not "technically" a lawyer, if it weren't for the evil guild system designed to extract monopoly rents for those who went to law school, you can bet your bottom dollar I would be out there practicing.

It is not a question of discrimination, because, for the moment, dumb lazy assholes are not a protected class. People who are called dumb lazy assholes but aren't dumb lazy assholes may have a defamation suit.

OP: it is very important that you document examples of your assistant working hard, being clever, and generally a good guy. A video of him bringing in donuts for the office could work wonders in a court room. Jurors are only human - they lap that shit up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not illegal if she can argue that her comments are accurate.

i.e. if she can prove that the guy is "dumb" "lazy" and an "asshole", then the Judge would have to rule "Ita vero" and the case would be dismissed.

Ummm, no. This is not a question of defamation. It's a question of discrimination, and so far nothing the OP has said rises to the level of illegal discrimination. Truth is irrelevant. But even if it was, these are all opinion terms that cannot be proven or disproven. Hope you're not a lawyer...

I have very extensive legal training, and while I am not "technically" a lawyer, if it weren't for the evil guild system designed to extract monopoly rents for those who went to law school, you can bet your bottom dollar I would be out there practicing.

It is not a question of discrimination, because, for the moment, dumb lazy assholes are not a protected class. People who are called dumb lazy assholes but aren't dumb lazy assholes may have a defamation suit.

OP: it is very important that you document examples of your assistant working hard, being clever, and generally a good guy. A video of him bringing in donuts for the office could work wonders in a court room. Jurors are only human - they lap that shit up.

And exactly what cause of action do you envision going to trial, fake lawyer, if not discrimination? Personally I don't see a basis for any claim at all, but I'd love to hear how you see this getting to a jury.

[Anonymous]

OP, she is creating a hostile work environment on a regular basis. Frankly, you are lucky that the target has not sued the company. This is not rocket science. She needs to be outta there. Document and do away with her. It will be an entirely different place, for the better! I have seen it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, she is creating a hostile work environment on a regular basis. Frankly, you are lucky that the target has not sued the company. This is not rocket science. She needs to be outta there. Document and do away with her. It will be an entirely different place, for the better! I have seen it.

I'd love to hear where you've "seen it," PP. Because in the USA there's nothing illegal about creating a hostile work environment if it's not based on race, ethnicity, religion, sex, disability, etc. Being a raging hostile asshole is perfectly legal as long as you're an equal opportunity raging hostile asshole. Unless you know something I don't? Please do tell what jurisdiction you're referring to.

I get scared and sad at the thought of people listening to the crazy legal advice people give on these boards. I really hope people consult their own attorneys and don't rely on the bizarre shit people come up with on here.

[Anonymous]

OP, why not call an attorney. I am certain and willing to bet a ton of money on this - that woman will not be there long. Maybe get rid of PP while you are at it? They are hostile too!

[Anonymous]

OP, your assistant is going to either (a) become less and less productive or (b) eventually leave. Something has to change if you want an alternative result. Talk to a lawyer, talk to your HR friends at other firms to see if you can develop a strategy for making the work environment a less hostile one for your assistant.

FWIW here's my experience with a hostile work environment: I used to be an assistant in an office where an elderly secretary's behavior was inappropriate toward me for many months. She'd stare at me - the kind of chilling stare that you see on movie psychopaths - as she went out of her way to pass by my desk numerous times per day until I trained myself to listen for her footstep and managed to turn around or disappear while she passed by. She eventually caught on to that, and changed her stride to a tiptoe, and she'd grin a creepy, triumphant grin when she'd "catch" me before I had the chance to turn around or leave. She followed me to the bathroom, she'd send me emails with a tracking tag, and she'd giggle when I deleted those emails without reading them, etc., etc. She'd been at the firm for years, and had plenty of allies, and I was there for the short term. I didn't see any good outcome to rocking the boat, so I didn't complain. I stuck it out until my planned departure.

I feel horrible for saying this, but when she developed a crush on another woman staff member, and fixated on her for a while, I was so grateful and relieved. She never stopped harassing me, but there was a huge drop-off. The other woman staffer had protections that I didn't have, so the secretary never actually harassed her. It was just clear to everyone, including the woman staffer, that she had a crush on her, and that she was monitoring the staffer's movements pretty closely.

OP, something for you to think about: people don't usually proactively create a hostile work environment for just one person. I always got the feeling that the secretary at my old office was just a little too practiced in her harassment of me. I suspect she's harassed other people before I arrived, and that she's continued to harass other people after I left.