inappropriate talk in the office...but is it illegal?

[Anonymous]

The important thing here is to document her behavior as she does it. Write it down and share it with others; your boss, HR, whomever. Make sure your boss records his requests to her to be more professional.

Then if she claims age discrimination when she is fired you will be able to defend.

[Anonymous]

op here:

Just had another conversation with boss b/c sec said to assistant "why don't you just die" . Assistant is great! Smart, good writer. Does projects in a timely manner. WOrk quality is fine. Is generally productive but the mistreatment does make him less so. He's a little...insecure and I think she feeds on weakness.

She works to shop, her words.

We are so small that we don't have an HR department. Boss does not want to deal with it. Yes, it's impacted moral. She is off on most Thurs so imagine my surprise to see her today. Morning coffee talk centered around that fact and that we are so busy she's distracting. ther ewas moaning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:op here:

Just had another conversation with boss b/c sec said to assistant "why don't you just die" . Assistant is great! Smart, good writer. Does projects in a timely manner. WOrk quality is fine. Is generally productive but the mistreatment does make him less so. He's a little...insecure and I think she feeds on weakness.

She works to shop, her words.

We are so small that we don't have an HR department. Boss does not want to deal with it. Yes, it's impacted moral. She is off on most Thurs so imagine my surprise to see her today. Morning coffee talk centered around that fact and that we are so busy she's distracting. ther ewas moaning.

You need to let your boss know how much you value your assistant and that you will be very upset with him if your assistant quits because he did not do his job and handle the secretaries unprofessional behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your boss is the one you should be mad at. He's not dealing with the behavior. He should be giving formal warnings with specific consequences for this behavior and should let her go if she doesn't shape up.

Waiting for her to retire is pathetic. He needs to man up and do his job. He is the one that will get the company sued for not dealing with this.

My thought too.

[Anonymous]

How long have you worked there? It sounds like your boss has some real management weaknesses. Is there an owner above him? It may be time to go above his head. But focus on her behavior, not his.

[Anonymous]

What about killing her with kindness?

[Anonymous]

OP here: I've tried killing her with kindness. She's too toxic for that. I agree with the management weaknesses. I won't get into details but he has a "big heart" or no balls. Hard to say.

I like the idea about telling him that I value assistant. I just need the right moment when he's open to hearing it.

[Anonymous]

Does your company have 20 or more employees? If so and your boss isn't documenting and counseling the employee about her behavior and then fires her, the company could be at risk for an age discrimination suit. If she's in her 70's, she's going to be replaced by a younger worker and whether there are any facts to support it or not, she could probably get someone interested enough in her case to file a suit. She likely wouldn't win, but the company would have to go through the hassle of defending it. If it has documentation of her poor behavior and can show she was progressively disciplined for it, the suit wouldn't make it very far. But if there's nothing to support the company's justification (and even worse, positive performance reviews in her file), it's harder to make the case quickly go away.

The company shouldn't keep her because of the risk of such a suit, but it should be actively documenting the issues and documenting the steps they've taken to improve them so they can defend themselves if they ever fire her (which it sounds like they won't).

[Anonymous]

I wonder if she's becoming senile or getting Alzheimer's or something, if she's becoming that nutty. What you describe doesn't sound illegal (it's not illegal to be mean, just illegal to be mean to people *because of* their race/sex/religion/etc.). I agree with 20:59; document what's going on, with corroboration from witnesses where possible. If you can collectively approach your boss as a group (through a couple of spokespersons) and explain that it's affecting morale for all of you, hopefully he'll have to do something.

[Anonymous]

OP, NP here. I've had this work for me. She wants to get fired. Maybe it is better if you say you are having cutbacks or whatever. In any case, she is causing a toxic work environment and can't seem to get along with anyone, poisoning a substantial amount of productivity for the office. This is what happened in our company. It sucks. Even if she is related to someone (as was the case), kick her to the curb. You do NOT want to lose good people because of her. After the 20th complaint from different people, we said enough....buh bye! We were nice long enough, it got us nothing, so we got mean, and it was the best thing we ever did! She was surprised because she was so accustomed to being the bully. But grown-up-ville-reality caught up with her and BOY did it sting! Do what you have to do. GL.

[Anonymous]

Is she your boss' MIL?

[Anonymous]

I'm going to sound ageist..but a 78-year-old secretary??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is not illegal if she can argue that her comments are accurate.

i.e. if she can prove that the guy is "dumb" "lazy" and an "asshole", then the Judge would have to rule "Ita vero" and the case would be dismissed.

Ummm, no. This is not a question of defamation. It's a question of discrimination, and so far nothing the OP has said rises to the level of illegal discrimination. Truth is irrelevant. But even if it was, these are all opinion terms that cannot be proven or disproven. Hope you're not a lawyer...

[Anonymous]

OP again. Small organization; under 10 people. Assistant is not lazy, stupid, or an asshole. I don't even think he's an actual bastard.

I don't think sec is senile. She's really always been this way but she is, for whatever reason, focusing her hate on one person which is demoralizing for the rest of us.

Boss and Sec are not related but I do wonder if they have some sort of son-mother thing going on b/c they too have weird arguments that seem familial.

Anyway, you have given me good advice. I will try to explain to boss about morale, explain to assistant that I value him and explain to boss that I value assistant. I will also start to document even though firing her is not something I can do. It might be helpful in the future. I did document when she was focusing her venom on me and the female mentioned in my first post b/c I was protecting me and I really thought she was going to get us sued in the second case. I haven't documented in about a year but I do have a record that this is not new behavior which should protect us from age discrimination if it comes to that...but I"m not a lawyer and don't have access to an HR professional. except on here.

[Anonymous]

How about if everyone else starts giving it back to her, but in a way that can be construed as hostile. When she says stuff, just look at her, and say things like, "it must be hard to be so full of hate", or, "really, you can't come up wih anything more original than that?" Don't refer to her age or health, but just react like she's harmless and move on. Have a list of comebacks ready and gang up on her by everyone using them when she acts up and otherwise ignoring her.