Is this snarky?

[Anonymous]

Like clockwork, a DCUM thread with a religious component brings out the Catholic bashers. The reason that there is "paperwork" involved in the Catholic sacraments (baptism, marriage, the Eucharist, etc.) is that they MEAN something, and the Church wants to ensure that the participants understand and accept that. The reason a child needs Catholic godparents and confirmation sponsors is to ensure that there are people in the child's life guiding his/her faith development. That is so terrible? The Church welcomes anyone who sincerely wants to partake of the sacraments, but it isn't like signing up for a club or showing up for a party. The best things in life usually require some effort! Oh, and BTW, despite the legions of "former" Catholics around here, demographic studies show that it is overwhelmingly the Protestant denominations that are most rapidly declining in membership.

There's a reason there are "legions of former Catholics" around here and elsewhere. Most of us have not fallen away from faith but are actively practicing Christians in other denominations now because Catholicism, in my view, places form over substance in so many situations. I am all for tradition and I'm not into relative moralism, but much of Catholicism just makes no sense to me doctrinally. I can't sincerely pray for forgiveness for my sins and be forgiven in the Catholic church; if I don't tell them to a priest and say my penance, it doesn't count - so I need an intermediary who is "holier" than I am if I want to talk to my God. Why? And I should pray to the saints for intercession? Why would you pray to a long-dead human being instead of to God? It borders on idolatry.

I was a Catholic for 30 years and would never have described it as a "welcoming" faith. More of an exclusive club. On the other hand, I felt embraced and welcomed from the moment I set foot in my current church. When we baptized our children in this church, we had to go through classes, profess our belief in Jesus Christ, and have support from the congregation. It wasn't like showing up for a party. We did not, however, have to show our "papers.". So it's not like other churches are dunking heads in the baptismal font willy-nilly and Catholics are the only ones to whom it "means something."

I'm not a Catholic- basher, but it's hard to deny that many of us were justifiably disillusioned to the point of leaving the church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh give the OP a break! Don't we all have these thoughts? And isn't an anonymous message board the place to air those not-so-nice thoughts?

I do see the OPs point. I've seen so many friends without churches, who don't practice any religion, scramble to find a church willing to throw water on their kid's head. In most cases, it's a family church. I sort of wonder what's the point in that? I'm not religious, didn't baptize and often people are surprised in this almost superstitious way as if St. Peter is standing up in heaven with a master list of whoich little baby heads got doused 79.2 years ago. My own father said my kids were going to end up in "LIMBO!" if they died. Limbo is an old-school Catholic belief about where unbaptized babies go (sort of like Hell's waiting room).

Anyway, I'm sure OP will go and buy some appropriate baptism gift. I've done it many times over, while harboring the same thoughts.

Limbo = Purgatory?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh give the OP a break! Don't we all have these thoughts? And isn't an anonymous message board the place to air those not-so-nice thoughts?

I do see the OPs point. I've seen so many friends without churches, who don't practice any religion, scramble to find a church willing to throw water on their kid's head. In most cases, it's a family church. I sort of wonder what's the point in that? I'm not religious, didn't baptize and often people are surprised in this almost superstitious way as if St. Peter is standing up in heaven with a master list of whoich little baby heads got doused 79.2 years ago. My own father said my kids were going to end up in "LIMBO!" if they died. Limbo is an old-school Catholic belief about where unbaptized babies go (sort of like Hell's waiting room).

Anyway, I'm sure OP will go and buy some appropriate baptism gift. I've done it many times over, while harboring the same thoughts.

Limbo = Purgatory?

No, different from purgatory. I think purgatory is like Heaven's waiting room. (You have to wait because you didn't confess all your sins before dying. Eventually you'll get to heaven because your unconfessed sins were minor/venial. Unconfessed mortal sins send you directly to hell.) In contrast, limbo was like a permanent place for unbaptized babies' souls. Not as good as heaven, not as bad as hell, but no chance of leaving. Limbo has been rejected doctrinally now by the Catholic church, but I grew up with it, as did previous generations of Catholics. So I think for our parents' generation, in particular, this is the origin of the fear of not baptizing and hence the pressure on otherwise non-practicing grown children to baptise the grandchildren. In my family, my sister married a Jewish man and is raising their children Jewish. My parents are totally comfortable with that, adores their son-in-law, etc., but my mom still wanted to sneak the babies out the be baptised. The rest of us convinced her that was wrong, which she recognized, but she worried about limbo a lot!

[Anonymous]

Curious--how can something be rejected doctrinally? Isn't everything about faith and religion clear from God--it is the clear truth and not left with uncertainties or subjectiveness?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Like clockwork, a DCUM thread with a religious component brings out the Catholic bashers. The reason that there is "paperwork" involved in the Catholic sacraments (baptism, marriage, the Eucharist, etc.) is that they MEAN something, and the Church wants to ensure that the participants understand and accept that. The reason a child needs Catholic godparents and confirmation sponsors is to ensure that there are people in the child's life guiding his/her faith development. That is so terrible? The Church welcomes anyone who sincerely wants to partake of the sacraments, but it isn't like signing up for a club or showing up for a party. The best things in life usually require some effort! Oh, and BTW, despite the legions of "former" Catholics around here, demographic studies show that it is overwhelmingly the Protestant denominations that are most rapidly declining in membership.

There's a reason there are "legions of former Catholics" around here and elsewhere. Most of us have not fallen away from faith but are actively practicing Christians in other denominations now because Catholicism, in my view, places form over substance in so many situations. I am all for tradition and I'm not into relative moralism, but much of Catholicism just makes no sense to me doctrinally. I can't sincerely pray for forgiveness for my sins and be forgiven in the Catholic church; if I don't tell them to a priest and say my penance, it doesn't count - so I need an intermediary who is "holier" than I am if I want to talk to my God. Why? And I should pray to the saints for intercession? Why would you pray to a long-dead human being instead of to God? It borders on idolatry.

I was a Catholic for 30 years and would never have described it as a "welcoming" faith. More of an exclusive club. On the other hand, I felt embraced and welcomed from the moment I set foot in my current church. When we baptized our children in this church, we had to go through classes, profess our belief in Jesus Christ, and have support from the congregation. It wasn't like showing up for a party. We did not, however, have to show our "papers.". So it's not like other churches are dunking heads in the baptismal font willy-nilly and Catholics are the only ones to whom it "means something."

I'm not a Catholic- basher, but it's hard to deny that many of us were justifiably disillusioned to the point of leaving the church.

An intelligent, well-reasoned, sane response. Nice.

[Anonymous]

We went back to dh's home to have our kids baptized at a great-grandparent's church. We didn't have our own church community yet (since then, we have found one), and since none of our family is here, it would have been difficult for everyone involved to fly in for the event. We didn't do it for the gifts but it also didn't feel like a religious imperative for us--we did it for the symbolism in general, to bring godparents into our children's lives (with a broader understanding of the emotional and spiritual meaning we hope they'll have in our children's lives), and to bring pleasure to the very elderly great-grandparent.

Sorry if we offended any cousins or made members of that church community feel infringed upon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Like clockwork, a DCUM thread with a religious component brings out the Catholic bashers. The reason that there is "paperwork" involved in the Catholic sacraments (baptism, marriage, the Eucharist, etc.) is that they MEAN something, and the Church wants to ensure that the participants understand and accept that. The reason a child needs Catholic godparents and confirmation sponsors is to ensure that there are people in the child's life guiding his/her faith development. That is so terrible? The Church welcomes anyone who sincerely wants to partake of the sacraments, but it isn't like signing up for a club or showing up for a party. The best things in life usually require some effort! Oh, and BTW, despite the legions of "former" Catholics around here, demographic studies show that it is overwhelmingly the Protestant denominations that are most rapidly declining in membership.

Like clockwork, you arrive and make the rest of us Catholics look bad. We can handle a little criticism. We deserve a little criticism. At least people are thinking about the Church. And as your priest probably tells you with some regularity, the Church is not a democracy. If it fits you, you can join. But if it doesn't, you have no choice but to leave. You don't make your own rules. So if legions leave, that is the effect of the Church's own doctrine.

[Anonymous]

My daughter's dad and I are not especially religious, but I do belong to a church (which I rarely attend) and we baptized my daughter there. Even if we're not the most devout people, we still appreciate the ritual of baptism and the thought behind it. I do believe my daughter is one of God's children, even if I'm not someone who feels the need to worship on Sundays. Plus it made my parents happy - they're more religious than I am. We received several children's bibles and a cross and a couple of other religious-themed gifts, which are in her room. She loves the fuzzy bear bible and I've had to read the stories in it a few times.

I think it would be kind of amusing for you to get them a bible. I doubt you'll be the only ones to think of it. You don't have to tell them the thought process behind it. I think it's enough that you know you're doing it with tongue in cheek.

[Anonymous]

I know my Dh - who has no interest in going to church - talked about baptising our son. I think some people who arent' church-goers still feel this need to get their child baptised. I don't think it is a hunt for gifts. More like something you just feel is right. And maybe they plan on going to church. I'm pretty sure my mom only attended after we were born and until we left the house.

I don't think a religious gift is inappropriate.