EMT Certification in College for Premed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s fine. But being a nurse assistant (CNA/PCA) is much more meaningful clinical experience and you can work PRN in college at a local hospital in pretty much any unit you want- or be be part of a float pool where they assign you to various units throughout the hospital depending on where you are needed.

The thing about EMTs is they don’t do a whole lot. It isn’t like Rescue 911. There is a lot of sitting around in parking lots and transporting people that can’t get to the doctor.

If you think stabilizing patients, performing CPR, administering Narcan, performing bag-valve mask ventilation isn't doing much then I guess you are right. That is like saying CNAs change bedpans and take people to the bathroom. Medical schools value EMT work as clinical work. It requires judgment and decision making under pressure and once you are released you are the person making the call on treatment as the first line responder. You have no idea what you are talking about.

EMT aren’t doing that 99% of the time, and we they are, those are very basic skills. I’ve worked many yrs in ERs, half the time when EMTs bring patients in they couldn’t start any IVs and intubated the esophagus.

So is changing a bedpan. What is your point? You sound awful. I hope I am never in the ER that you are in ... (I doubt you are).

CNAs in hospitals do a ton. They are responsible for obtaining vitals, blood sugars, inserting Foley catheters (and learning sterile technique), accurately recording input and output of patients, maneuvering patients, assisting with complicated dressing changes, I could go on and on. They learn all about various medical and surgical conditions, complications, interventions/treatments. They can listen in when doctors are rounding on patients and further gain knowledge. Honestly, it’s the best yet most underrated way to learn about medicine and patient care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC earned his National Registry EMT certification in high school and is thinking about pursuing premed in college. Is EMT work considered clinical experience for med school applications? If he continues volunteering as an EMT in college, would that be enough clinical experience, or would he still need other experiences like physician shadowing? Also, how time consuming is EMT work in college? He is wondering whether it is manageable with premed classes, research, volunteering, and everything else. Should he take it slow? TIA

EMT is clinical and considered a high-level clinical experience. Yes he needs shadowing too, anywhere above 50 hr, below 100 is ok.
If he is a top candidate with high grades and likely to get high MCAT(is his SAT 1520+) then he may end up wanting to shoot for T20 med schools in which case he needs clinical variety in addition to EMT, and also needs leadership, volunteering outside of EMT and of course needs 2 semesters or at least one summer intensive research. He can do EMT in the summers or during the school year or both it depends on the area and the time commitment if it is an on-campus EMT "club" that requires a lot of hours. The goal is 500-800 total clinical hours in addition to the shadowing, if he wants to be most competitive, part EMT/part something else is ideal. One summer full time is 400-500 hours. He should take it easy first semester and focus on a 3.7+ the first year if at ivy/T20 private, as close to 4.0 as possible at lower ranked/typical average public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What drives me nuts about EMT clinical hours is the long shifts where many times nothing is happening. My kid is a HS certified EMT and now a college student. Kid also works as a CMA. When working in a doctor’s office or hospital as a CMA, about 90-95% of work hours is truly clinical (hands on, all the time). With EMT, it can be 20% for some shifts yet every hour clocked in counts as clinical. At times, my kid has been getting sbux with another EMT or playing on the phone or sitting around talking and all count as clinical hours.

But surely you realize that your kid isn't there to be getting something out of it other than playing on their phone, they are there to do the job when it needs to be done? And if there are no calls to be working on 80% of any given shift, that is just how it is?

Of course I realize just how it is but it seems absurd that clinical hours are counted like this when much of the time is not clinical work…when they are compared to applicants doing a job where all hours listed were actual clinical hours. The idea is to have significant (time wise) clinical experience - emt hours show this but it’s not factual (compared to a cna, cma, er tech, surgical assistant, etc). And i say this as the parent of an emt (who is also a cma).

You are incorrect when you say the "idea is to have significant (time wise) clinical experience." That is not the idea. The "idea" is mere exposure to patient care. That's it. Med students will have "significant clinical experience" in third and fourth year of med school, perhaps even before.

100% incorrect. If you were correct, then shadowing would NOT be separate from clinical experience. It would all be lumped in as the idea is "exposure" to patient care. For med school admissions, they look at volunteering separate from clinical experiences separate from shadowing separate from research. Clinical experience shows that the applicant has hundreds of hours of personal hands on experience in the clinical setting.

This is why you have to filter out the garbage claimed by people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Well, I work at a medical school. But by all means, keep blathering on about how you "have to filter out the garbage claimed by people who have no idea what they are talking about." I know exactly what I'm talking about.

At any rate, shadowing a physician does not necessarily expose students to direct patient care -- imagine shadowing a radiologist or pathologist. No patient care. It's still shadowing. Shadowing a surgeon, which lots of students love to do? Probably won't meet a conscious patient let alone have to deal with one (unless you shadow them during clinic hours which no one wants to do). At any rate, exposure to human patients and exposure to the health care system and what it means to work in it is what pre-application clinical hours are about. So that applicants understand what caring for other humans is like, and see that it requires some empathy. They don't need to know any real medicine before they get to med school, and to the extent that they do they sometimes have to unlearn it. We give them plenty of "hands on experience in the clinical setting" once they get here. Many, many hours of it. The clinical hours they amass for applications just show they have some vague exposure to what they are getting into, and that they didn't respond to it with "oh, hell no."

One. Hundred. Percent.
Also a physician, currently med school affiliated and used to be on my T5 admin committee before moving to the DMV. Clinical experience is a gut check for the pre-applicant, not meant as true training. Med school drop out rates are much lower since adding required clinical hours. They were common and frankly expected especially at top-50 places thirty years ago, but they were not required and you could get in many places without any.
EMT gets acknowledged as a top clinical experience because it has all the variables that need to be gut checked: blood/vomit/stress/horrid smells/near-death and intense exposure to the more negative "social determinants of health" that is humanity. EMT is more likely to cause one to bow out of the chase than other clinical jobs, even though many shifts are quiet. If you want medicine after EMT, you really want it. That is how the ER and hospitals are too, and even primary care some days: mundane mundane mundane, then the you know what hits the fan and you have 3 stressful/serious things to juggle at the same time.

[Anonymous]

The EMT crowd can be interesting...some kids can be sucked into some bad habits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s fine. But being a nurse assistant (CNA/PCA) is much more meaningful clinical experience and you can work PRN in college at a local hospital in pretty much any unit you want- or be be part of a float pool where they assign you to various units throughout the hospital depending on where you are needed.

The thing about EMTs is they don’t do a whole lot. It isn’t like Rescue 911. There is a lot of sitting around in parking lots and transporting people that can’t get to the doctor.

If you think stabilizing patients, performing CPR, administering Narcan, performing bag-valve mask ventilation isn't doing much then I guess you are right. That is like saying CNAs change bedpans and take people to the bathroom. Medical schools value EMT work as clinical work. It requires judgment and decision making under pressure and once you are released you are the person making the call on treatment as the first line responder. You have no idea what you are talking about.

EMT aren’t doing that 99% of the time, and we they are, those are very basic skills. I’ve worked many yrs in ERs, half the time when EMTs bring patients in they couldn’t start any IVs and intubated the esophagus.

So is changing a bedpan. What is your point? You sound awful. I hope I am never in the ER that you are in ... (I doubt you are).

CNAs in hospitals do a ton. They are responsible for obtaining vitals, blood sugars, inserting Foley catheters (and learning sterile technique), accurately recording input and output of patients, maneuvering patients, assisting with complicated dressing changes, I could go on and on. They learn all about various medical and surgical conditions, complications, interventions/treatments. They can listen in when doctors are rounding on patients and further gain knowledge. Honestly, it’s the best yet most underrated way to learn about medicine and patient care.

Again, clinical hours for the application is NOT about learning medicine. Med school is for learning medicine. It is about checking if you can handle blood/poop/smells and of course, empathy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The EMT crowd can be interesting...some kids can be sucked into some bad habits.

Exactly my experience (rather what my daughter experienced)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What drives me nuts about EMT clinical hours is the long shifts where many times nothing is happening. My kid is a HS certified EMT and now a college student. Kid also works as a CMA. When working in a doctor’s office or hospital as a CMA, about 90-95% of work hours is truly clinical (hands on, all the time). With EMT, it can be 20% for some shifts yet every hour clocked in counts as clinical. At times, my kid has been getting sbux with another EMT or playing on the phone or sitting around talking and all count as clinical hours.

But surely you realize that your kid isn't there to be getting something out of it other than playing on their phone, they are there to do the job when it needs to be done? And if there are no calls to be working on 80% of any given shift, that is just how it is?

Of course I realize just how it is but it seems absurd that clinical hours are counted like this when much of the time is not clinical work…when they are compared to applicants doing a job where all hours listed were actual clinical hours. The idea is to have significant (time wise) clinical experience - emt hours show this but it’s not factual (compared to a cna, cma, er tech, surgical assistant, etc). And i say this as the parent of an emt (who is also a cma).

You are incorrect when you say the "idea is to have significant (time wise) clinical experience." That is not the idea. The "idea" is mere exposure to patient care. That's it. Med students will have "significant clinical experience" in third and fourth year of med school, perhaps even before.

100% incorrect. If you were correct, then shadowing would NOT be separate from clinical experience. It would all be lumped in as the idea is "exposure" to patient care. For med school admissions, they look at volunteering separate from clinical experiences separate from shadowing separate from research. Clinical experience shows that the applicant has hundreds of hours of personal hands on experience in the clinical setting.

This is why you have to filter out the garbage claimed by people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Well, I work at a medical school. But by all means, keep blathering on about how you "have to filter out the garbage claimed by people who have no idea what they are talking about." I know exactly what I'm talking about.

At any rate, shadowing a physician does not necessarily expose students to direct patient care -- imagine shadowing a radiologist or pathologist. No patient care. It's still shadowing. Shadowing a surgeon, which lots of students love to do? Probably won't meet a conscious patient let alone have to deal with one (unless you shadow them during clinic hours which no one wants to do). At any rate, exposure to human patients and exposure to the health care system and what it means to work in it is what pre-application clinical hours are about. So that applicants understand what caring for other humans is like, and see that it requires some empathy. They don't need to know any real medicine before they get to med school, and to the extent that they do they sometimes have to unlearn it. We give them plenty of "hands on experience in the clinical setting" once they get here. Many, many hours of it. The clinical hours they amass for applications just show they have some vague exposure to what they are getting into, and that they didn't respond to it with "oh, hell no."

You could shadow a pediatrician for 900 hours. It does not turn it into clinical hours. They are listed as shadowing hours.

Tell you what. Since you're clearly lying: name the medical school and department you work at and I will call admissions and ask them if one has tons of shadowing hours of an internist or pediatrician if that is fine even if there are low/no clinical hours for admissions because... - and then I'll quote what you said above and refer them to your department where you work as the source of this information.

Can you read? What on earth makes you think I said shadowing is fine for clinical hours? I said the opposite. I specifically said shadowing does not necessarily even expose a student to direct patient care at all. Your reading comprehension is incredibly poor.

School and department you work in plz

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s fine. But being a nurse assistant (CNA/PCA) is much more meaningful clinical experience and you can work PRN in college at a local hospital in pretty much any unit you want- or be be part of a float pool where they assign you to various units throughout the hospital depending on where you are needed.

The thing about EMTs is they don’t do a whole lot. It isn’t like Rescue 911. There is a lot of sitting around in parking lots and transporting people that can’t get to the doctor.

If you think stabilizing patients, performing CPR, administering Narcan, performing bag-valve mask ventilation isn't doing much then I guess you are right. That is like saying CNAs change bedpans and take people to the bathroom. Medical schools value EMT work as clinical work. It requires judgment and decision making under pressure and once you are released you are the person making the call on treatment as the first line responder. You have no idea what you are talking about.

EMT aren’t doing that 99% of the time, and we they are, those are very basic skills. I’ve worked many yrs in ERs, half the time when EMTs bring patients in they couldn’t start any IVs and intubated the esophagus.

So is changing a bedpan. What is your point? You sound awful. I hope I am never in the ER that you are in ... (I doubt you are).

CNAs in hospitals do a ton. They are responsible for obtaining vitals, blood sugars, inserting Foley catheters (and learning sterile technique), accurately recording input and output of patients, maneuvering patients, assisting with complicated dressing changes, I could go on and on. They learn all about various medical and surgical conditions, complications, interventions/treatments. They can listen in when doctors are rounding on patients and further gain knowledge. Honestly, it’s the best yet most underrated way to learn about medicine and patient care.

Again, clinical hours for the application is NOT about learning medicine. Med school is for learning medicine. It is about checking if you can handle blood/poop/smells and of course, empathy.

And I would argue there are better ways than EMT to do that. EMT is seriously not the experience you seem to think is. If you know, you know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s fine. But being a nurse assistant (CNA/PCA) is much more meaningful clinical experience and you can work PRN in college at a local hospital in pretty much any unit you want- or be be part of a float pool where they assign you to various units throughout the hospital depending on where you are needed.

The thing about EMTs is they don’t do a whole lot. It isn’t like Rescue 911. There is a lot of sitting around in parking lots and transporting people that can’t get to the doctor.

If you think stabilizing patients, performing CPR, administering Narcan, performing bag-valve mask ventilation isn't doing much then I guess you are right. That is like saying CNAs change bedpans and take people to the bathroom. Medical schools value EMT work as clinical work. It requires judgment and decision making under pressure and once you are released you are the person making the call on treatment as the first line responder. You have no idea what you are talking about.

EMT aren’t doing that 99% of the time, and we they are, those are very basic skills. I’ve worked many yrs in ERs, half the time when EMTs bring patients in they couldn’t start any IVs and intubated the esophagus.

So is changing a bedpan. What is your point? You sound awful. I hope I am never in the ER that you are in ... (I doubt you are).

CNAs in hospitals do a ton. They are responsible for obtaining vitals, blood sugars, inserting Foley catheters (and learning sterile technique), accurately recording input and output of patients, maneuvering patients, assisting with complicated dressing changes, I could go on and on. They learn all about various medical and surgical conditions, complications, interventions/treatments. They can listen in when doctors are rounding on patients and further gain knowledge. Honestly, it’s the best yet most underrated way to learn about medicine and patient care.

Again, clinical hours for the application is NOT about learning medicine. Med school is for learning medicine. It is about checking if you can handle blood/poop/smells and of course, empathy.

And I would argue there are better ways than EMT to do that. EMT is seriously not the experience you seem to think is. If you know, you know.

You seem to have baggage. Why would anyone come on here to bash people volunteering to help people? Weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And I would argue there are better ways than EMT to do that. EMT is seriously not the experience you seem to think is. If you know, you know.

What better way to figure out how you respond to the realities of patient care than by engaging in patient care?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s fine. But being a nurse assistant (CNA/PCA) is much more meaningful clinical experience and you can work PRN in college at a local hospital in pretty much any unit you want- or be be part of a float pool where they assign you to various units throughout the hospital depending on where you are needed.

The thing about EMTs is they don’t do a whole lot. It isn’t like Rescue 911. There is a lot of sitting around in parking lots and transporting people that can’t get to the doctor.

If you think stabilizing patients, performing CPR, administering Narcan, performing bag-valve mask ventilation isn't doing much then I guess you are right. That is like saying CNAs change bedpans and take people to the bathroom. Medical schools value EMT work as clinical work. It requires judgment and decision making under pressure and once you are released you are the person making the call on treatment as the first line responder. You have no idea what you are talking about.

EMT aren’t doing that 99% of the time, and we they are, those are very basic skills. I’ve worked many yrs in ERs, half the time when EMTs bring patients in they couldn’t start any IVs and intubated the esophagus.

So is changing a bedpan. What is your point? You sound awful. I hope I am never in the ER that you are in ... (I doubt you are).

CNAs in hospitals do a ton. They are responsible for obtaining vitals, blood sugars, inserting Foley catheters (and learning sterile technique), accurately recording input and output of patients, maneuvering patients, assisting with complicated dressing changes, I could go on and on. They learn all about various medical and surgical conditions, complications, interventions/treatments. They can listen in when doctors are rounding on patients and further gain knowledge. Honestly, it’s the best yet most underrated way to learn about medicine and patient care.

Again, clinical hours for the application is NOT about learning medicine. Med school is for learning medicine. It is about checking if you can handle blood/poop/smells and of course, empathy.

And I would argue there are better ways than EMT to do that. EMT is seriously not the experience you seem to think is. If you know, you know.

DP here. What are the better ways? CNA, MA and scribing? Each of these has drawbacks also.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The EMT crowd can be interesting...some kids can be sucked into some bad habits.

Exactly my experience (rather what my daughter experienced)

Could you elaborate? My teen is interested in doing this as a way to see if she wants to go down this path.

[Anonymous]

My son has found EMT to be very rewarding and he has learned a lot from some very dedicated volunteers. No cowboy stuff. I'm sure it depends on the squad (just like every job depends on the people).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And I would argue there are better ways than EMT to do that. EMT is seriously not the experience you seem to think is. If you know, you know.

What better way to figure out how you respond to the realities of patient care than by engaging in patient care?

It’s not really patient care. They are doing very little patient care. It’s mostly transporting people. Once in a great while you may give oxygen, do chest compression, give an epi pen, shock, apply a tourniquet. EMTs are mostly responding to non emergent situations and even in the emergencies, what they can actually do is very limited. They are mostly picking up and dropping off

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s not really patient care. They are doing very little patient care. It’s mostly transporting people. Once in a great while you may give oxygen, do chest compression, give an epi pen, shock, apply a tourniquet. EMTs are mostly responding to non emergent situations and even in the emergencies, what they can actually do is very limited. They are mostly picking up and dropping off

Okay, you apparently don’t understand a subtle approach, so I’ll have to be more direct.
Working as an EMT may be the first time a person is exposed to other people’s blood, vomit, urine, and feces.
If they have a significant negative reaction that eliminates their desire to pursue a career in the medical field, isn’t it better to discover that sooner than later?