Auren Hoffman: the brand of your school stopped working

[Anonymous]

After seeing who gets into Top 30 schools, I have no respect for rankings or brands.

Some of the smartest kids from my DC’s class are staying in-state and attending public institutions.

The ones who end up at “top” name brand schools are often from wealthy families. My jaw dropped when I saw who was getting into these selective colleges. It’s certainly not the best students.

[Anonymous]

Used to be nobody really cared much where you went to college.

In the AI era, nobody cares that you went to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

This list is for muggles. You need to consider the industries and audience unless the ranking's sole purpose is to impress your neighbors born before 1975. No one in Silicon Valley cares about Northwestern, a school known for journalism and radio. A hiring manager at FAANG will want a Harvey Mudd grad 10 out of 10 times over someone from Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown and at least 2 Ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

This list is for muggles. You need to consider the industries and audience unless the ranking's sole purpose is to impress your neighbors born before 1975. No one in Silicon Valley cares about Northwestern, a school known for journalism and radio. A hiring manager at FAANG will want a Harvey Mudd grad 10 out of 10 times over someone from Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown and at least 2 Ivies.

not true at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After seeing who gets into Top 30 schools, I have no respect for rankings or brands.

Some of the smartest kids from my DC’s class are staying in-state and attending public institutions.

The ones who end up at “top” name brand schools are often from wealthy families. My jaw dropped when I saw who was getting into these selective colleges. It’s certainly not the best students.

How much do you know about random kids at your kids hs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

This list is for muggles. You need to consider the industries and audience unless the ranking's sole purpose is to impress your neighbors born before 1975. No one in Silicon Valley cares about Northwestern, a school known for journalism and radio. A hiring manager at FAANG will want a Harvey Mudd grad 10 out of 10 times over someone from Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown and at least 2 Ivies.

I’m a hiring manager at a Mag7, and I’ve worked at three of the Mag7/FAANG companies. Honestly, you sound stupid. I could give a rats ass about a kid going to Harvey Mudd, Northwestern, Vandy, etc. It just doesn’t matter. Waterloo might have raised a few heads but in general schools were never a consideration. I left Meta as an L8 and I had more people from SJSU on my team than anywhere else. I had MIT, CalTech, UCB but I also had MS&T, NC State, UCSC, SUNY, etc. if you are good enough, you will make it through the gauntlet from any solid school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the claim is overstated but there may be some truth to it. And much of that truth comes from test optional policies. Schools used to be in clearer bands by SAT. Now it's, oh we have a 1470 average but only thirty percent submitting. It's all mystery meat. We lose differentiation and things start to slip all over the place.

Schools below the T20 will continue to have regional brands (BC for Boston, USC for LA) or specialty majors (Georgetown for IR) but he may be on to something that the days of general national reputation are behind us for most schools.

The napkin diagram is alarmist BS though. "Source: just trust me bro."

+1. We also questioned the value of schools outside the T20/30 when crafting DC’s college list. Ultimately, she only applied to T20 and affordable state flagships. The mid tiers just did not have the ROI to justify $80k per year. She was accepted to a T10 but would been happy at a flagship.

Agree. Our first was just before the TO nonsense. We ranked by SAT range and looked at graduation rates as well as the school's data on professional/grad school matriculation and also class size with particular attention to typical first and second year coursework. We only considered about 25 private universities and 8 LACs, by our ranking. Our ranking was quite similar to the USnews T25 before they did the pell grant and other changes that made it a fairly useless sorting for quality of peer group. For our metrics, only UVA and William and Mary fit the bill in state(SAT ranges pre-TO are the same as the lower end of the 25 national universities we ranked). Those were the backups, from their stats within their high school SCOIR it was clear that both would be backups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After seeing who gets into Top 30 schools, I have no respect for rankings or brands.

Some of the smartest kids from my DC’s class are staying in-state and attending public institutions.

The ones who end up at “top” name brand schools are often from wealthy families. My jaw dropped when I saw who was getting into these selective colleges. It’s certainly not the best students.

That is pure copium. For unhooked students it is indeed the top ones who get into T30. Especially T10/ivy, the the aid is best here--they are better deals than in state for anyone under 200k HHI, they target middle and upper middle class who qualify for aid these days. They do not want full pay over 45%, and there are plenty of full pay from boarding and top privates with 1450+ to fill all their unhooked seats. They do not want that. They want to maximize those who have some need.

The wealthiest families in our private have students at UGA, UVA, SMU, Auburn. They only have a T10/ivy if they are hooked or if they happen to be wealthy and have one of the very top unhooked students in the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"below 20, the system does not work anymore."

I'm going to wait to see some actual evidence from the author before I start clutching my pearls.

Adn what "system" anyway? College degrees get jobs. No one really cares where you went and they never did unless an alum is hiring.

[Anonymous]

The whole "cliff" thing was never true. It's a marketing farce.

[Anonymous]

A version I often hear in immigrant family circles is: if it’s not HYPSM, it may be better to go to a strong in-state flagship, save on tuition, and use those money for things like starting a business or putting a down payment on a home.

[Anonymous]

Y'all are so confused. As usual.

They don't "hire off the US News rankings." They "hire off" connections or merit or both. People who go to top schools usually have one, the other, or both.

[Anonymous]

I agree with this premise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

This list is for muggles. You need to consider the industries and audience unless the ranking's sole purpose is to impress your neighbors born before 1975. No one in Silicon Valley cares about Northwestern, a school known for journalism and radio. A hiring manager at FAANG will want a Harvey Mudd grad 10 out of 10 times over someone from Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown and at least 2 Ivies.

I’m a hiring manager at a Mag7, and I’ve worked at three of the Mag7/FAANG companies. Honestly, you sound stupid. I could give a rats ass about a kid going to Harvey Mudd, Northwestern, Vandy, etc. It just doesn’t matter. Waterloo might have raised a few heads but in general schools were never a consideration. I left Meta as an L8 and I had more people from SJSU on my team than anywhere else. I had MIT, CalTech, UCB but I also had MS&T, NC State, UCSC, SUNY, etc. if you are good enough, you will make it through the gauntlet from any solid school.

You’re both BSing a bit. Mudd students do factually make more than a lot of peer school engineering majors, and they do often get the job over others, because HMs know they’re good students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

This list is for muggles. You need to consider the industries and audience unless the ranking's sole purpose is to impress your neighbors born before 1975. No one in Silicon Valley cares about Northwestern, a school known for journalism and radio. A hiring manager at FAANG will want a Harvey Mudd grad 10 out of 10 times over someone from Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown and at least 2 Ivies.

As if anyone thinks META and the like are desirable places to work anymore.