Auren Hoffman: the brand of your school stopped working

[Anonymous]

"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps your theory is valid only for certain majors. There are many specialized fields where major reputation is what's important, or internships, or research experience.

My oldest is at GWU, which has God knows what ranking. He's at the Elliott School of International Affairs, which has a strong reputation in the field, and he is being well prepared for his dream job. It was a question of fit, which does, in the end, translate to career prospects, but not in a superficial "brand name equals interviews" sort of way.

So I think your analysis is very crude, which makes it inapplicable to a lot of fields.

[Anonymous]

Another very important quote in the article:

"the second (reason the hiring system collapsed below the top 20) is that most colleges make it almost impossible to get lower than an A-. so there is no longer a signal in someone’s grades when everyone has at least a 3.8"

While there are posts and data on here almost every day about UVA median GPA 3.65 vs Harvard 3.9 and "deflated" ivies 3.75, and everyone complains that it is unfair the top schools inflate. What no one seems to see that we see in hiring is that the average GPA at most schools is indeed around a 3.8. While companies may prefer ivy/+ for the time being, and know them enough to not care too much about GPA, it becomes quite murky when USC, Union, and UGA all have a pile of people around 3.8 and up.

[Anonymous]

I’m sure this is super-fascinating and relevant if all you care about is the hiring trends at McKinsey and godforsaken places like that. It’s meaningless for the remaining 95% of employers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

You have 7 SLACS which get equal or better results than anything below the top 5 for IB and MBB and another 5 which hang with the group outside of Ivy+. You've got public flagships which do well especially in CS and Engineering. You have 5 Canadian schools which can bang with this crew as well. I know what he was trying to say but prestige goes much further than the top 35 and the overall crux of the article makes is sound like it was written by some clueless tool in Silicon Valley. I worked in tech leadership roles at three of the Mag7 and I can tell you than nobody cares about the app that you vibe coded.

[Anonymous]

I think the claim is overstated but there may be some truth to it. And much of that truth comes from test optional policies. Schools used to be in clearer bands by SAT. Now it's, oh we have a 1470 average but only thirty percent submitting. It's all mystery meat. We lose differentiation and things start to slip all over the place.

Schools below the T20 will continue to have regional brands (BC for Boston, USC for LA) or specialty majors (Georgetown for IR) but he may be on to something that the days of general national reputation are behind us for most schools.

The napkin diagram is alarmist BS though. "Source: just trust me bro."

[Anonymous]

Poor Georgetown, stuck at 24. A useless degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

UVA isnt in the T25 so thats also debatable. If UVA is there UNC, Gatech should be there too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps your theory is valid only for certain majors. There are many specialized fields where major reputation is what's important, or internships, or research experience.

My oldest is at GWU, which has God knows what ranking. He's at the Elliott School of International Affairs, which has a strong reputation in the field, and he is being well prepared for his dream job. It was a question of fit, which does, in the end, translate to career prospects, but not in a superficial "brand name equals interviews" sort of way.

So I think your analysis is very crude, which makes it inapplicable to a lot of fields.

Agreed, Elliott School is absolutely excellent in IR and for that major I'd say its quite comparable to Tufts, Georgetown, etc. An all of those schools are miles better in IR than Depaul, counter to the generalist conclusions by this "author".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Students from both schools should quit sending cold applications into the void. It’s not how people get jobs. A significant majority are through networks, colleagues, and professors. Randomly applying through Indeed and LinkedIn are useless, whether you went to Tufts or DePaul.

My DC randomly applied through LinkedIn and got the job. So...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

UVA isnt in the T25 so thats also debatable. If UVA is there UNC, Gatech should be there too.

[b]
LOL - ok UVA troll

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
"until very recently, american companies hired new grads basically off the US News rankings. top 20 school? you got invited to interview at Google, JP Morgan, and McKinsey. number 50 school? there was a job for you. number 400 school? there was a job for you too -- just less prestigious than the one at the top 50 school.

the brand of a top 20 degree is still high. those graduates still get looks. the network is dense and the admissions filter is real. a Stanford degree opens more doors. a less prestigious state-school degree does not.

below 20, the system does not work anymore. there is now almost no difference between a #35 school and a #350 school in the eyes of a recruiter. the brand completely collapsed and most parents and students have not been told yet.

Of course it is true. Unless you come from a super connected family, you'd better go to a school in the top 20 (the 20 or so that MBB and other top companies target, not necessarily us news):

8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, JHU
CalTEch, Northwestern. That's the top 15, not in that order.

Which of these is in the next 5 is debatable:
UCB, Rice, WashU, CMU, UCLA, UMich, Vanderbilt, ND, WAS, Georgetown, UVA, Emory....

That is already 27 and getting borderline.

The dropoff is quite steep after that group.

The next 5 is none of those, except comp sci at CMU. The next 5 are Williams, Amherst, Michigan, Cal, Georgetown

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the claim is overstated but there may be some truth to it. And much of that truth comes from test optional policies. Schools used to be in clearer bands by SAT. Now it's, oh we have a 1470 average but only thirty percent submitting. It's all mystery meat. We lose differentiation and things start to slip all over the place.

Schools below the T20 will continue to have regional brands (BC for Boston, USC for LA) or specialty majors (Georgetown for IR) but he may be on to something that the days of general national reputation are behind us for most schools.

The napkin diagram is alarmist BS though. "Source: just trust me bro."

+1. We also questioned the value of schools outside the T20/30 when crafting DC’s college list. Ultimately, she only applied to T20 and affordable state flagships. The mid tiers just did not have the ROI to justify $80k per year. She was accepted to a T10 but would been happy at a flagship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the claim is overstated but there may be some truth to it. And much of that truth comes from test optional policies. Schools used to be in clearer bands by SAT. Now it's, oh we have a 1470 average but only thirty percent submitting. It's all mystery meat. We lose differentiation and things start to slip all over the place.

Schools below the T20 will continue to have regional brands (BC for Boston, USC for LA) or specialty majors (Georgetown for IR) but he may be on to something that the days of general national reputation are behind us for most schools.

The napkin diagram is alarmist BS though. "Source: just trust me bro."

+1. We also questioned the value of schools outside the T20/30 when crafting DC’s college list. Ultimately, she only applied to T20 and affordable state flagships. The mid tiers just did not have the ROI to justify $80k per year. She was accepted to a T10 but would been happy at a flagship.

Tell the truth, she goes to Towson

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the claim is overstated but there may be some truth to it. And much of that truth comes from test optional policies. Schools used to be in clearer bands by SAT. Now it's, oh we have a 1470 average but only thirty percent submitting. It's all mystery meat. We lose differentiation and things start to slip all over the place.

Schools below the T20 will continue to have regional brands (BC for Boston, USC for LA) or specialty majors (Georgetown for IR) but he may be on to something that the days of general national reputation are behind us for most schools.

The napkin diagram is alarmist BS though. "Source: just trust me bro."

+1. We also questioned the value of schools outside the T20/30 when crafting DC’s college list. Ultimately, she only applied to T20 and affordable state flagships. The mid tiers just did not have the ROI to justify $80k per year. She was accepted to a T10 but would been happy at a flagship.

Many of the affordable state flagships are the schools outside the T20/30 though? Think Purdue, Florida/Florida State, Georgia Tech/UGA, etc.

Or are you talking, like, free tuition offer at Alabama or South Carolina?