Why are WASP so elite?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s an outdated term. Swarthmore and Pomona are niche and not as desirable in my area (New England). Bowdoin and Middlebury absolutely are. They’re all fabulous schools and highly selective.

Your area isn’t reflective of the country.

Or New England for that matter!

[Anonymous]

If you're looking at colleges for your kid - and I know that's not even what people hear talk about - you have to first establish if your kid would like or dislike a small, rural (ish) school. One of my kids said no way. One of my kids said, yes, they'd prefer it.

Then, because it's a big investment, have the kid who *thinks* they want a small, rural school do an overnight at one and one at a bigger school. by end of junior year or beginning of senior year, your kid probably knows kids in college.

SLACs are a very different experience and you want to be sure.

BUT if you have a kid who still wants this, here are our favorites:

Williams - perceived to be best, no matter who you talk to, inlcuding employers. But if you're not an athlete, getting into Yale will be easier.

Middlebury - especially for finance. (or languages, but really .. dont major in a language in 2025.). A really nice outdoorsy vibe and excellent outcomes.

Pomona or CMC - these are great, offer tons of opportunity. As a group, really function as a mid-size college. You won't run out of people to date or whatever your concern is. Excellent outcomes.

Bowdoin - more good vibes, happy kids. very hot now. arctic studies has more of a market than you'd think. not sure about their new AI stuff, but interesting.

All the above will also get you connected into plenty of "it's who you know" circles. Close to HYP-level. Very high number of NYC private school kids - that's got some bad aspects, but you'll be happy to have the connections.

Bonus midwestern: Carleton. Easier to get into than the others, most prestige with lower access point. Won't have quite the nepe baby element, for good and bad.

All these schools will give your kid a top drawer education. The next level: the Hamiltons and Haverfords and Colgates will lean either very artsy or very lax bro "shorts and slides in January" vibe. Solid education, but a step down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:imo the biggest problem schools like Midd, Hamilton, Colby, Bates, Colgate have is very undesirable rural/remote locations with no diversity. Demographics have changed drastically in the US. Lots of kids want to be in or have easy access to major cities for all the cultural, entertainment and culinary benefits. Logistically try getting to Middlebury Vermont, Hamilton NY or Watervile Maine. Plus the winters are brutal. Believe Colgate had a 3,000 drop in apps and Midd has seen a pronounced decline in last 2 years. College popularity has changed with top kids flocking to Duke and Vandy while those wishing to remain in North East seeking city schools.

I agree with this. SLACs remain competitive but, in relative terms, their popularity has suffered at the expense of national universities. Meanwhile, cities have become more popular, not to mention larger demographic shifts away from New England and upstate New York towards the south and west. Endowment level (and ability to give merit in future) mitigates or accelerates this decline.

While the very top will remain top, you can already see the shift going on in the tiers below WASP-B. Stock picks, largely for these reasons:

Hold long-term: WASP-B
Buys: Davidson, Mudd, CMC
Sells: Bates, Colby, Midd, Hamilton, Colgate, Conn College, Trinity (neighborhood negates urban advantage)
Holds: Wesleyan, Holy Cross, W&L, Macalester, Occidental, Haverford, Carleton, Grinnell (due to endowment)

CMC is as good as the market is. The second there’s a downturn in hiring for Consulting/IB, there’s very little bones left as to what those students can do. Very little academic diversity with 50% of students majoring in economics. It’s a one trick pony. They’re making attempts with integrated sciences, so we’ll see how that goes in the next 5 or so years. They’re also becoming a very closed campus community with current campus investments are going into a massive sports bowl and potentially new aquatic center:https://www.cmc.edu/giving/investing-in-future-leaders/roberts-campus-sports-bowl.

DS was really excited to attend and then realized there was very little space to be different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you're looking at colleges for your kid - and I know that's not even what people hear talk about - you have to first establish if your kid would like or dislike a small, rural (ish) school. One of my kids said no way. One of my kids said, yes, they'd prefer it.

Then, because it's a big investment, have the kid who *thinks* they want a small, rural school do an overnight at one and one at a bigger school. by end of junior year or beginning of senior year, your kid probably knows kids in college.

SLACs are a very different experience and you want to be sure.

BUT if you have a kid who still wants this, here are our favorites:

Williams - perceived to be best, no matter who you talk to, inlcuding employers. But if you're not an athlete, getting into Yale will be easier.

Middlebury - especially for finance. (or languages, but really .. dont major in a language in 2025.). A really nice outdoorsy vibe and excellent outcomes.

Pomona or CMC - these are great, offer tons of opportunity. As a group, really function as a mid-size college. You won't run out of people to date or whatever your concern is. Excellent outcomes.

Bowdoin - more good vibes, happy kids. very hot now. arctic studies has more of a market than you'd think. not sure about their new AI stuff, but interesting.

All the above will also get you connected into plenty of "it's who you know" circles. Close to HYP-level. Very high number of NYC private school kids - that's got some bad aspects, but you'll be happy to have the connections.

Bonus midwestern: Carleton. Easier to get into than the others, most prestige with lower access point. Won't have quite the nepe baby element, for good and bad.

All these schools will give your kid a top drawer education. The next level: the Hamiltons and Haverfords and Colgates will lean either very artsy or very lax bro "shorts and slides in January" vibe. Solid education, but a step down.

I forgot Swat - This was for us, the grindiest, least attractive option. Leans a lot into their "cashless", open access campus for diverse groups. I appreciate it, but I don't think it should be a headline. I also think it doesn't have the upsides of a true rural campus (a ski hill, big investment in indoor gyms etc). BUT I loved the collaborative vibes in their dining rooms so maybe I'm missing something. But not my favorite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:imo the biggest problem schools like Midd, Hamilton, Colby, Bates, Colgate have is very undesirable rural/remote locations with no diversity. Demographics have changed drastically in the US. Lots of kids want to be in or have easy access to major cities for all the cultural, entertainment and culinary benefits. Logistically try getting to Middlebury Vermont, Hamilton NY or Watervile Maine. Plus the winters are brutal. Believe Colgate had a 3,000 drop in apps and Midd has seen a pronounced decline in last 2 years. College popularity has changed with top kids flocking to Duke and Vandy while those wishing to remain in North East seeking city schools.

I agree with this. SLACs remain competitive but, in relative terms, their popularity has suffered at the expense of national universities. Meanwhile, cities have become more popular, not to mention larger demographic shifts away from New England and upstate New York towards the south and west. Endowment level (and ability to give merit in future) mitigates or accelerates this decline.

While the very top will remain top, you can already see the shift going on in the tiers below WASP-B. Stock picks, largely for these reasons:

Hold long-term: WASP-B
Buys: Davidson, Mudd, CMC
Sells: Bates, Colby, Midd, Hamilton, Colgate, Conn College, Trinity (neighborhood negates urban advantage)
Holds: Wesleyan, Holy Cross, W&L, Macalester, Occidental, Haverford, Carleton, Grinnell (due to endowment)

CMC is as good as the market is. The second there’s a downturn in hiring for Consulting/IB, there’s very little bones left as to what those students can do. Very little academic diversity with 50% of students majoring in economics. It’s a one trick pony. They’re making attempts with integrated sciences, so we’ll see how that goes in the next 5 or so years. They’re also becoming a very closed campus community with current campus investments are going into a massive sports bowl and potentially new aquatic center:https://www.cmc.edu/giving/investing-in-future-leaders/roberts-campus-sports-bowl.

DS was really excited to attend and then realized there was very little space to be different.

Everything you say may be true, but it is still a “buy.” Great endowment. California. 5Cs. Econ specialty when kids are flocking to it. Great non-science majors. Doesn’t mean your kid has to go there, but I certainly would not bet against it. If you instead want to “buy” a New England SLAC like Colby, good luck to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People (general public and academics) consider these four the LAC equivalents of Ivy-tier signaling.
The next tier of schools Wellesley, Bowdoin, Carleton, Middlebury, substantively have no difference.
Why do they give less Ivy-tier signaling power?

To that list, I would add:

Washington & Lee for the South
Reed for the Northwest
Colorado for the mountains
Rice for the deep south, though strictly speaking Rice is not a lac

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:imo the biggest problem schools like Midd, Hamilton, Colby, Bates, Colgate have is very undesirable rural/remote locations with no diversity. Demographics have changed drastically in the US. Lots of kids want to be in or have easy access to major cities for all the cultural, entertainment and culinary benefits. Logistically try getting to Middlebury Vermont, Hamilton NY or Watervile Maine. Plus the winters are brutal. Believe Colgate had a 3,000 drop in apps and Midd has seen a pronounced decline in last 2 years. College popularity has changed with top kids flocking to Duke and Vandy while those wishing to remain in North East seeking city schools.

I agree with this. SLACs remain competitive but, in relative terms, their popularity has suffered at the expense of national universities. Meanwhile, cities have become more popular, not to mention larger demographic shifts away from New England and upstate New York towards the south and west. Endowment level (and ability to give merit in future) mitigates or accelerates this decline.

While the very top will remain top, you can already see the shift going on in the tiers below WASP-B. Stock picks, largely for these reasons:

Hold long-term: WASP-B
Buys: Davidson, Mudd, CMC
Sells: Bates, Colby, Midd, Hamilton, Colgate, Conn College, Trinity (neighborhood negates urban advantage)
Holds: Wesleyan, Holy Cross, W&L, Macalester, Occidental, Haverford, Carleton, Grinnell (due to endowment)

CMC is as good as the market is. The second there’s a downturn in hiring for Consulting/IB, there’s very little bones left as to what those students can do. Very little academic diversity with 50% of students majoring in economics. It’s a one trick pony. They’re making attempts with integrated sciences, so we’ll see how that goes in the next 5 or so years. They’re also becoming a very closed campus community with current campus investments are going into a massive sports bowl and potentially new aquatic center:https://www.cmc.edu/giving/investing-in-future-leaders/roberts-campus-sports-bowl.

DS was really excited to attend and then realized there was very little space to be different.

Everything you say may be true, but it is still a “buy.” Great endowment. California. 5Cs. Econ specialty when kids are flocking to it. Great non-science majors. Doesn’t mean your kid has to go there, but I certainly would not bet against it. If you instead want to “buy” a New England SLAC like Colby, good luck to you.

Are you a bot? Colby has great admin leadership currently and offers a ton to students. Sure, most wouldn’t stomach it’s location, but you’re gonna enjoy 4 years there if you’d enjoy them at CMC or Wesleyan or wherever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People (general public and academics) consider these four the LAC equivalents of Ivy-tier signaling.
The next tier of schools Wellesley, Bowdoin, Carleton, Middlebury, substantively have no difference.
Why do they give less Ivy-tier signaling power?

To that list, I would add:

Washington & Lee for the South
Reed for the Northwest
Colorado for the mountains
Rice for the deep south, though strictly speaking Rice is not a lac

Rice is also not in the Deep South. The only southern part of Texas is east Texas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're looking at colleges for your kid - and I know that's not even what people hear talk about - you have to first establish if your kid would like or dislike a small, rural (ish) school. One of my kids said no way. One of my kids said, yes, they'd prefer it.

Then, because it's a big investment, have the kid who *thinks* they want a small, rural school do an overnight at one and one at a bigger school. by end of junior year or beginning of senior year, your kid probably knows kids in college.

SLACs are a very different experience and you want to be sure.

BUT if you have a kid who still wants this, here are our favorites:

Williams - perceived to be best, no matter who you talk to, inlcuding employers. But if you're not an athlete, getting into Yale will be easier.

Middlebury - especially for finance. (or languages, but really .. dont major in a language in 2025.). A really nice outdoorsy vibe and excellent outcomes.

Pomona or CMC - these are great, offer tons of opportunity. As a group, really function as a mid-size college. You won't run out of people to date or whatever your concern is. Excellent outcomes.

Bowdoin - more good vibes, happy kids. very hot now. arctic studies has more of a market than you'd think. not sure about their new AI stuff, but interesting.

All the above will also get you connected into plenty of "it's who you know" circles. Close to HYP-level. Very high number of NYC private school kids - that's got some bad aspects, but you'll be happy to have the connections.

Bonus midwestern: Carleton. Easier to get into than the others, most prestige with lower access point. Won't have quite the nepe baby element, for good and bad.

All these schools will give your kid a top drawer education. The next level: the Hamiltons and Haverfords and Colgates will lean either very artsy or very lax bro "shorts and slides in January" vibe. Solid education, but a step down.

I forgot Swat - This was for us, the grindiest, least attractive option. Leans a lot into their "cashless", open access campus for diverse groups. I appreciate it, but I don't think it should be a headline. I also think it doesn't have the upsides of a true rural campus (a ski hill, big investment in indoor gyms etc). BUT I loved the collaborative vibes in their dining rooms so maybe I'm missing something. But not my favorite.

Got to say, the whole first-gen, financial aid thing made this donut hole family seem like a second-class citizen at Swat. Weird way of doing things at Swat. But one example: free music lessons if on financial aid, but not if you aren’t. (Of course tour guide said free music lessons for everyone because tour guide obviously on financial aid). Whereas places like Grinnell and Pomona give free music lessons — to everyone. Once you are a student, you are a student. Stop diving up benefits at that point….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People (general public and academics) consider these four the LAC equivalents of Ivy-tier signaling.
The next tier of schools Wellesley, Bowdoin, Carleton, Middlebury, substantively have no difference.
Why do they give less Ivy-tier signaling power?

To that list, I would add:

Washington & Lee for the South
Reed for the Northwest
Colorado for the mountains
Rice for the deep south, though strictly speaking Rice is not a lac

Rice is also not in the Deep South. The only southern part of Texas is east Texas.

Rice ain’t a SLAC.

[Anonymous]

Like the stock pick analysis with some tweaks. Move Wesleyan to a sell for same reason as listed for Trinity as Hartford is not a big draw. Upgrade Haverford access to Philly and Holy Cross access to Boston. Debating rating on W&L would twea to sell as its southern location is very rural as opposed to Davidson’s access to Charlotte. But overall great picks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:imo the biggest problem schools like Midd, Hamilton, Colby, Bates, Colgate have is very undesirable rural/remote locations with no diversity. Demographics have changed drastically in the US. Lots of kids want to be in or have easy access to major cities for all the cultural, entertainment and culinary benefits. Logistically try getting to Middlebury Vermont, Hamilton NY or Watervile Maine. Plus the winters are brutal. Believe Colgate had a 3,000 drop in apps and Midd has seen a pronounced decline in last 2 years. College popularity has changed with top kids flocking to Duke and Vandy while those wishing to remain in North East seeking city schools.

I agree with this. SLACs remain competitive but, in relative terms, their popularity has suffered at the expense of national universities. Meanwhile, cities have become more popular, not to mention larger demographic shifts away from New England and upstate New York towards the south and west. Endowment level (and ability to give merit in future) mitigates or accelerates this decline.

While the very top will remain top, you can already see the shift going on in the tiers below WASP-B. Stock picks, largely for these reasons:

Hold long-term: WASP-B
Buys: Davidson, Mudd, CMC
Sells: Bates, Colby, Midd, Hamilton, Colgate, Conn College, Trinity (neighborhood negates urban advantage)
Holds: Wesleyan, Holy Cross, W&L, Macalester, Occidental, Haverford, Carleton, Grinnell (due to endowment)

CMC is as good as the market is. The second there’s a downturn in hiring for Consulting/IB, there’s very little bones left as to what those students can do. Very little academic diversity with 50% of students majoring in economics. It’s a one trick pony. They’re making attempts with integrated sciences, so we’ll see how that goes in the next 5 or so years. They’re also becoming a very closed campus community with current campus investments are going into a massive sports bowl and potentially new aquatic center:https://www.cmc.edu/giving/investing-in-future-leaders/roberts-campus-sports-bowl.

DS was really excited to attend and then realized there was very little space to be different.

Everything you say may be true, but it is still a “buy.” Great endowment. California. 5Cs. Econ specialty when kids are flocking to it. Great non-science majors. Doesn’t mean your kid has to go there, but I certainly would not bet against it. If you instead want to “buy” a New England SLAC like Colby, good luck to you.

Are you a bot? Colby has great admin leadership currently and offers a ton to students. Sure, most wouldn’t stomach its location, but you’re gonna enjoy 4 years there if you’d enjoy them at CMC or Wesleyan or wherever.

It is a very good school. But this “not” has been to Waterville and it is' without exaggeration, arguably the worst location of any SLAC in the country.

The point is, do you thing it will go up in prestige the next generation, down in prestige, or stay the same? I say down,though it’s big recent donation means it won’t go into freefall. Bates, on the other hand, will not be so “fortunate”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're looking at colleges for your kid - and I know that's not even what people hear talk about - you have to first establish if your kid would like or dislike a small, rural (ish) school. One of my kids said no way. One of my kids said, yes, they'd prefer it.

Then, because it's a big investment, have the kid who *thinks* they want a small, rural school do an overnight at one and one at a bigger school. by end of junior year or beginning of senior year, your kid probably knows kids in college.

SLACs are a very different experience and you want to be sure.

BUT if you have a kid who still wants this, here are our favorites:

Williams - perceived to be best, no matter who you talk to, inlcuding employers. But if you're not an athlete, getting into Yale will be easier.

Middlebury - especially for finance. (or languages, but really .. dont major in a language in 2025.). A really nice outdoorsy vibe and excellent outcomes.

Pomona or CMC - these are great, offer tons of opportunity. As a group, really function as a mid-size college. You won't run out of people to date or whatever your concern is. Excellent outcomes.

Bowdoin - more good vibes, happy kids. very hot now. arctic studies has more of a market than you'd think. not sure about their new AI stuff, but interesting.

All the above will also get you connected into plenty of "it's who you know" circles. Close to HYP-level. Very high number of NYC private school kids - that's got some bad aspects, but you'll be happy to have the connections.

Bonus midwestern: Carleton. Easier to get into than the others, most prestige with lower access point. Won't have quite the nepe baby element, for good and bad.

All these schools will give your kid a top drawer education. The next level: the Hamiltons and Haverfords and Colgates will lean either very artsy or very lax bro "shorts and slides in January" vibe. Solid education, but a step down.

I forgot Swat - This was for us, the grindiest, least attractive option. Leans a lot into their "cashless", open access campus for diverse groups. I appreciate it, but I don't think it should be a headline. I also think it doesn't have the upsides of a true rural campus (a ski hill, big investment in indoor gyms etc). BUT I loved the collaborative vibes in their dining rooms so maybe I'm missing something. But not my favorite.

Got to say, the whole first-gen, financial aid thing made this donut hole family seem like a second-class citizen at Swat. Weird way of doing things at Swat. But one example: free music lessons if on financial aid, but not if you aren’t. (Of course tour guide said free music lessons for everyone because tour guide obviously on financial aid). Whereas places like Grinnell and Pomona give free music lessons — to everyone. Once you are a student, you are a student. Stop diving up benefits at that point….

Agree these on/off programs a true rock in the shoes of many full pay. I get it if you study abroad finances match your FA plan. But the "free summer study if on FA" is more divisive than these colleges realize. They think, if you're full pay, you're rich. Nah, we're just older and saved and never moved out of our starter house so we can't shield money in a 4mm brownstone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:imo the biggest problem schools like Midd, Hamilton, Colby, Bates, Colgate have is very undesirable rural/remote locations with no diversity. Demographics have changed drastically in the US. Lots of kids want to be in or have easy access to major cities for all the cultural, entertainment and culinary benefits. Logistically try getting to Middlebury Vermont, Hamilton NY or Watervile Maine. Plus the winters are brutal. Believe Colgate had a 3,000 drop in apps and Midd has seen a pronounced decline in last 2 years. College popularity has changed with top kids flocking to Duke and Vandy while those wishing to remain in North East seeking city schools.

I agree with this. SLACs remain competitive but, in relative terms, their popularity has suffered at the expense of national universities. Meanwhile, cities have become more popular, not to mention larger demographic shifts away from New England and upstate New York towards the south and west. Endowment level (and ability to give merit in future) mitigates or accelerates this decline.

While the very top will remain top, you can already see the shift going on in the tiers below WASP-B. Stock picks, largely for these reasons:

Hold long-term: WASP-B
Buys: Davidson, Mudd, CMC
Sells: Bates, Colby, Midd, Hamilton, Colgate, Conn College, Trinity (neighborhood negates urban advantage)
Holds: Wesleyan, Holy Cross, W&L, Macalester, Occidental, Haverford, Carleton, Grinnell (due to endowment)

CMC is as good as the market is. The second there’s a downturn in hiring for Consulting/IB, there’s very little bones left as to what those students can do. Very little academic diversity with 50% of students majoring in economics. It’s a one trick pony. They’re making attempts with integrated sciences, so we’ll see how that goes in the next 5 or so years. They’re also becoming a very closed campus community with current campus investments are going into a massive sports bowl and potentially new aquatic center:https://www.cmc.edu/giving/investing-in-future-leaders/roberts-campus-sports-bowl.

DS was really excited to attend and then realized there was very little space to be different.

Everything you say may be true, but it is still a “buy.” Great endowment. California. 5Cs. Econ specialty when kids are flocking to it. Great non-science majors. Doesn’t mean your kid has to go there, but I certainly would not bet against it. If you instead want to “buy” a New England SLAC like Colby, good luck to you.

Are you a bot? Colby has great admin leadership currently and offers a ton to students. Sure, most wouldn’t stomach its location, but you’re gonna enjoy 4 years there if you’d enjoy them at CMC or Wesleyan or wherever.

It is a very good school. But this “not” has been to Waterville and it is' without exaggeration, arguably the worst location of any SLAC in the country.

The point is, do you thing it will go up in prestige the next generation, down in prestige, or stay the same? I say down,though it’s big recent donation means it won’t go into freefall. Bates, on the other hand, will not be so “fortunate”

Colby is likely to rise. New England boarding schools aren’t going anywhere, and the school has a lot of career support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Like the stock pick analysis with some tweaks. Move Wesleyan to a sell for same reason as listed for Trinity as Hartford is not a big draw. Upgrade Haverford access to Philly and Holy Cross access to Boston. Debating rating on W&L would twea to sell as its southern location is very rural as opposed to Davidson’s access to Charlotte. But overall great picks!

This is the stock poster. You may be right about Wes: I was on the fence. But Middletown is really not bad, has a walkable downtown, proximity to urban areas. Plus it has had a major downswing the last generation or two and is now holding its own.

Haverford also was on the fence. Hard to be such a second fiddle to Swat and be a buy, but you may be right.

W&L also on the fence but they have so much money and are in the south. Not many people even know they give a full ride, including room and board, to 10% of students. I stick with my “hold” on that one.