Is anyone's kid not taking the SAT or ACT at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

I think she should at least try prepping and taking the test, and if her scores are low she can use TO as a fall back position. If she's only a junior now, she has more than enough time to prep. I'd suggest she take a practice ACT and practice SAT (not PSAT) under test conditions at home with no preparation but only to see which testing style and content suits her more. If she's not strong in math, she could just skip that step and focus exclusively on the ACT. Math is only 25% of the ACT and is 50% of the SAT. Also, the math on the SAT is harder and more sophisticated. Most of ACT is 8th/9th grade math and is more of a speed contest. Once she's made a ACT vs SAT choice, she should prep and take official practice tests before planning to take the ACT or SAT at least 2 times prior to senior year beginning (Spring & Summer).

My view is that even at TO schools they may be secretly test preferred. And SAT or ACT is a great way to validate a strong GPA of mostly As from a public school.

While I agree that the ACT is better for some student than SAT so kids should consider both, this information about the ACT is not quite correct. It is now 1/3 of the total score. I’d also be skeptical that the math doesn’t go beyond 8th/9th grade.

The SAT gives more time but is designed to be trickier. The ACT gives less time but is designed to be more straightforward.

I know that ACT is transitioning to be more like SAT, but 33% (1/3) is still closer to 25% than 50% - the SAT is 50% math.

Also, ACT covering 8th/9th grade math might be accurate for many students who do algebra in 7th/8th grade or earlier and start geometry in grade 8/9.

ACT includes Alg II and Precalc topics in the hardest questions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

In NY you just need a doctor to sign off on a 504 for "anxiety."

I don’t understand. If this is as simple as signing off a doctor note, why is it a wealthy kid thing? Any kid could get it if they want it?

You need a psychologist or psychiatrist to sign off - not just a primary doctor's note. And many of these doctors don't take insurance. So it's become a rich family thing. Find the right shrink, pay them their thousands, get the useful diagnosis, and get what you need. It's like the opioid doctors from a few years ago. Bring them the money, and you'll get any diagnosis you need. Shrinks that don't take insurance are, by and large, very accommodating when it comes to pay to play. Which is to say, most of them. It's not difficult to get special accommodations for your kid - in NYC especially.

I'm sure RFK jr will get right on it. But in the meantime, it's another way the wealthy game things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

In NY you just need a doctor to sign off on a 504 for "anxiety."

I don’t understand. If this is as simple as signing off a doctor note, why is it a wealthy kid thing? Any kid could get it if they want it?

You need a psychologist or psychiatrist to sign off - not just a primary doctor's note. And many of these doctors don't take insurance. So it's become a rich family thing. Find the right shrink, pay them their thousands, get the useful diagnosis, and get what you need. It's like the opioid doctors from a few years ago. Bring them the money, and you'll get any diagnosis you need. Shrinks that don't take insurance are, by and large, very accommodating when it comes to pay to play. Which is to say, most of them. It's not difficult to get special accommodations for your kid - in NYC especially.

I'm sure RFK jr will get right on it. But in the meantime, it's another way the wealthy game things.

This is a WILD exaggeration. I occasionally read that on DCUM, and I'm sorry this sort of thing persists. Perhaps PPs have written a lot of these posts over the years.

One of my kids had his processing speed measured at the 4th percentile. He has severe ADHD, autism and dyscalculia. He has a double time accommodation, and he uses it. By repeating your accusations that testing accommodations are exploited by a certain group, you are leading others to harbor suspicions of all families whose children have SN. Don't do that!

Also, yes, it's obvious that kids from poor or uninformed families will not be able to benefit from legitimate accommodations because of financial or knowledge barriers. Isn't that what happens in all categories of activity? The ones who can afford services and know they need it... will make the most of their access. I wish it were otherwise, but that's life. But it does not follow that this access is illegitimate or undeserved!

Finally, do not accuse psychologists of lying. That's the worst accusation you've made in your post, because it goes against their code of professional ethics. We are a doctor/scientist household, and we know plenty of psychologists. NONE of them would ever participate in a pay-to-play scheme. That is entirely contrary to their scientific training! I accept that you can find dishonest people in every profession, but to casually assume that vast swathes of this one make up diagnoses for money is INSANE.

So check yourself, PPs. You're entirely out of line.

[Anonymous]

DS took it once. Our college advisor didn’t think that even with test prep his scores would be high enough to submit so she told us not to waste our time or money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

In NY you just need a doctor to sign off on a 504 for "anxiety."

I don’t understand. If this is as simple as signing off a doctor note, why is it a wealthy kid thing? Any kid could get it if they want it?

You need a psychologist or psychiatrist to sign off - not just a primary doctor's note. And many of these doctors don't take insurance. So it's become a rich family thing. Find the right shrink, pay them their thousands, get the useful diagnosis, and get what you need. It's like the opioid doctors from a few years ago. Bring them the money, and you'll get any diagnosis you need. Shrinks that don't take insurance are, by and large, very accommodating when it comes to pay to play. Which is to say, most of them. It's not difficult to get special accommodations for your kid - in NYC especially.

I'm sure RFK jr will get right on it. But in the meantime, it's another way the wealthy game things.

This is a WILD exaggeration. I occasionally read that on DCUM, and I'm sorry this sort of thing persists. Perhaps PPs have written a lot of these posts over the years.

One of my kids had his processing speed measured at the 4th percentile. He has severe ADHD, autism and dyscalculia. He has a double time accommodation, and he uses it. By repeating your accusations that testing accommodations are exploited by a certain group, you are leading others to harbor suspicions of all families whose children have SN. Don't do that!

Also, yes, it's obvious that kids from poor or uninformed families will not be able to benefit from legitimate accommodations because of financial or knowledge barriers. Isn't that what happens in all categories of activity? The ones who can afford services and know they need it... will make the most of their access. I wish it were otherwise, but that's life. But it does not follow that this access is illegitimate or undeserved!

Finally, do not accuse psychologists of lying. That's the worst accusation you've made in your post, because it goes against their code of professional ethics. We are a doctor/scientist household, and we know plenty of psychologists. NONE of them would ever participate in a pay-to-play scheme. That is entirely contrary to their scientific training! I accept that you can find dishonest people in every profession, but to casually assume that vast swathes of this one make up diagnoses for money is INSANE.

So check yourself, PPs. You're entirely out of line.

+1
Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

I think she should at least try prepping and taking the test, and if her scores are low she can use TO as a fall back position. If she's only a junior now, she has more than enough time to prep. I'd suggest she take a practice ACT and practice SAT (not PSAT) under test conditions at home with no preparation but only to see which testing style and content suits her more. If she's not strong in math, she could just skip that step and focus exclusively on the ACT. Math is only 25% of the ACT and is 50% of the SAT. Also, the math on the SAT is harder and more sophisticated. Most of ACT is 8th/9th grade math and is more of a speed contest. Once she's made a ACT vs SAT choice, she should prep and take official practice tests before planning to take the ACT or SAT at least 2 times prior to senior year beginning (Spring & Summer).

My view is that even at TO schools they may be secretly test preferred. And SAT or ACT is a great way to validate a strong GPA of mostly As from a public school.

Interesting! This explains why so many kids in our circle are getting low SAT scores but high ACT scores.

The ACT math is much harder on the new test. They have reduced easier concepts and added more complex pre-Calc and statistics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

I think she should at least try prepping and taking the test, and if her scores are low she can use TO as a fall back position. If she's only a junior now, she has more than enough time to prep. I'd suggest she take a practice ACT and practice SAT (not PSAT) under test conditions at home with no preparation but only to see which testing style and content suits her more. If she's not strong in math, she could just skip that step and focus exclusively on the ACT. Math is only 25% of the ACT and is 50% of the SAT. Also, the math on the SAT is harder and more sophisticated. Most of ACT is 8th/9th grade math and is more of a speed contest. Once she's made a ACT vs SAT choice, she should prep and take official practice tests before planning to take the ACT or SAT at least 2 times prior to senior year beginning (Spring & Summer).

My view is that even at TO schools they may be secretly test preferred. And SAT or ACT is a great way to validate a strong GPA of mostly As from a public school.

Interesting! This explains why so many kids in our circle are getting low SAT scores but high ACT scores.

My kid got a 780 on the math SAT and a 33 on the math ACT. And that was the paper ACT.

[Anonymous]

We thought seriously about skipping the SATs completely. DC is a type 1 diabetic, and standardized tests are so complicated with the alarms, stress effects on glucose levels, need for juice boxes, etc. Definitely wondered if it was worth the hassle.

But actually DC got a lot out of preparing for them and taking them. I am not someone who believes that SATs define much about a kid, but DC could see scores inching up with preparation in a way that felt more direct than a lot of schooling did.

[Anonymous]

My DS took the SAT once, got a score he wasn't happy with and went TO to all his schools. Got into many with merit aid and is now a happy college kid who is getting good grades.

He took it just to see but did fine without the scores as well.

[Anonymous]

If your child is so unmotivated that they can’t bother with a standardized test, she doesn’t belong at a top 20-30 national university or a top 15 SLAC. Kids at those schools are smart, but also competitive and ambitious. Yes, certain types of students get into those schools test optional, but the overall atmosphere /culture/fit would not be good for a smart slacker.

[Anonymous]

In the current environment, it would be a disservice to your child not to take the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

In NY you just need a doctor to sign off on a 504 for "anxiety."

I don’t understand. If this is as simple as signing off a doctor note, why is it a wealthy kid thing? Any kid could get it if they want it?

You need a psychologist or psychiatrist to sign off - not just a primary doctor's note. And many of these doctors don't take insurance. So it's become a rich family thing. Find the right shrink, pay them their thousands, get the useful diagnosis, and get what you need. It's like the opioid doctors from a few years ago. Bring them the money, and you'll get any diagnosis you need. Shrinks that don't take insurance are, by and large, very accommodating when it comes to pay to play. Which is to say, most of them. It's not difficult to get special accommodations for your kid - in NYC especially.

I'm sure RFK jr will get right on it. But in the meantime, it's another way the wealthy game things.

This is a WILD exaggeration. I occasionally read that on DCUM, and I'm sorry this sort of thing persists. Perhaps PPs have written a lot of these posts over the years.

One of my kids had his processing speed measured at the 4th percentile. He has severe ADHD, autism and dyscalculia. He has a double time accommodation, and he uses it. By repeating your accusations that testing accommodations are exploited by a certain group, you are leading others to harbor suspicions of all families whose children have SN. Don't do that!

Also, yes, it's obvious that kids from poor or uninformed families will not be able to benefit from legitimate accommodations because of financial or knowledge barriers. Isn't that what happens in all categories of activity? The ones who can afford services and know they need it... will make the most of their access. I wish it were otherwise, but that's life. But it does not follow that this access is illegitimate or undeserved!

Finally, do not accuse psychologists of lying. That's the worst accusation you've made in your post, because it goes against their code of professional ethics. We are a doctor/scientist household, and we know plenty of psychologists. NONE of them would ever participate in a pay-to-play scheme. That is entirely contrary to their scientific training! I accept that you can find dishonest people in every profession, but to casually assume that vast swathes of this one make up diagnoses for money is INSANE.

So check yourself, PPs. You're entirely out of line.

How do you know what they are doing in their offices??? -NP

[Anonymous]

I think SAT is becoming increasingly more important so if she's only a junior now, I'd definitely have her take a mock test and see how she does and develop a prep plan. TO should be reserved only as a backup plan if she makes no improvement. But she should at least try to see if she can make SAT work.

ACT is in transition and it appears that the newest version is trying to be more like SAT. I'd stick with SAT if I was starting to prep from scratch. There's fewer kinks since the new version has been out for awhile now and there are many prep tests you can use for free on college board's website.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

In NY you just need a doctor to sign off on a 504 for "anxiety."

I don’t understand. If this is as simple as signing off a doctor note, why is it a wealthy kid thing? Any kid could get it if they want it?

You need a psychologist or psychiatrist to sign off - not just a primary doctor's note. And many of these doctors don't take insurance. So it's become a rich family thing. Find the right shrink, pay them their thousands, get the useful diagnosis, and get what you need. It's like the opioid doctors from a few years ago. Bring them the money, and you'll get any diagnosis you need. Shrinks that don't take insurance are, by and large, very accommodating when it comes to pay to play. Which is to say, most of them. It's not difficult to get special accommodations for your kid - in NYC especially.

I'm sure RFK jr will get right on it. But in the meantime, it's another way the wealthy game things.

This is a WILD exaggeration. I occasionally read that on DCUM, and I'm sorry this sort of thing persists. Perhaps PPs have written a lot of these posts over the years.

One of my kids had his processing speed measured at the 4th percentile. He has severe ADHD, autism and dyscalculia. He has a double time accommodation, and he uses it. By repeating your accusations that testing accommodations are exploited by a certain group, you are leading others to harbor suspicions of all families whose children have SN. Don't do that!

Also, yes, it's obvious that kids from poor or uninformed families will not be able to benefit from legitimate accommodations because of financial or knowledge barriers. Isn't that what happens in all categories of activity? The ones who can afford services and know they need it... will make the most of their access. I wish it were otherwise, but that's life. But it does not follow that this access is illegitimate or undeserved!

Finally, do not accuse psychologists of lying. That's the worst accusation you've made in your post, because it goes against their code of professional ethics. We are a doctor/scientist household, and we know plenty of psychologists. NONE of them would ever participate in a pay-to-play scheme. That is entirely contrary to their scientific training! I accept that you can find dishonest people in every profession, but to casually assume that vast swathes of this one make up diagnoses for money is INSANE.

So check yourself, PPs. You're entirely out of line.

How would you know anything about how easy it is to get fake accomodations given that your child actually needs them?
It's not as if your kid works fast but you wanted to give them an extra advantage, went to all the "right" cash-only shrinks, only for them to tell you that your kid does not need accomodations due to their strong ethical standards. If that was your situation, I would doubt the PP's statement.

[Anonymous]

Both of my boys went test optional. First one has a learning disability and didn't do well on the PSAT. Made him take the SAT once. Knew he wasn't going to be able to raise the score enough to submit so he was done. Other one, also didn't do well on the PSAT. Took the SAT once. Did ok. It would have been a huge struggle and fight to get him to study for the SAT so we let it go and he applied TO.