Serious question for MAGA - how do you not see the rise of authoritarian oligarchy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authoritarianism is fine when it’s their team. Also, some probably don’t think they’ll ever lose again so it’s fine. (The project 2025 people definitely think this.)

They may benefit for awhile. They’ll always have to look over their shoulder. But the average MAGA voter won’t benefit.

It's always YOU that has to benefit from your votes, right?

Can't possibly be the whole country benefiting, huh? You leftists always have to break people down into groups and pit them against each other for power.

Your heritage bros and tech bros are the ones dividing you. How many times have we said to you that you and me are more alike than we are with them?

I’ve Been at NPR for 25 Years. Here’s How We Lost America’s Trust.

Uri Berliner, a veteran at the public radio institution, says the network lost its way when it started telling listeners how to think.

https://www.thefp.com/p/npr-editor-how-npr-lost-americas-trust

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe this isn’t possible? Or do you just not care because you are fooled into believing it will some how benefit you?

I’m not MAGA. I was one of the Democrats on here begging Democrats to look up (of course nobody did) and who knew Trump would beat Biden, let alone Harris. I think I’m one of the few Democrats posting here that regularly listens to Rogan, Kirk, etc. I’m a Democrat because I am pro-labor, pro-working class (people the Democrats used to care about), but feel alienated from this current identity-focused iteration of the party. Of course I voted for Harris because Trump is a traitor, but I have no love for the current Democrats.

Here is what you don’t understand. The deep red MAGA believe we were in an authoritarian oligarchy under the Democrats. They believe that Democrats used the pandemic to destroy small businesses with their closure and shut-down orders, and to consolidate power into the hands of powerful Democrat donors. They do not believe they receive any benefit whatsoever from government agencies, mostly seeing them as arms of the oligarchy that destroyed small businesses and the education of their children during the pandemic. And these feelings run long and deep: most of them view the pandemic business and school closures as targeted extensions of what Democrats did with NAFTA.

They also view the DEI and identity-focus of current Democrats as explicitly anti-working class. The language of DEI is inexplicable and a clear class marker — no one who isn’t part of the wealthy oligarch class uses incomprehensible terms like “lived experience” in daily conversation — and they feel that it is used by the oligarchs in charge to weaken and isolate them.

So, from the point of view of MAGA, there isn’t a change. That’s what all the hyperventilating out-of-touch posters in DCUM do not understand: the MAGA think we’re already in an authoritarian oligarchy. So, if we are already in one, it might as well be run by someone who doesn’t convey how much he hates them like the Democrats do.

The GOP did their propaganda well. They are very good at accusing the "other side" of what they want to do, selling it hard, and then coming in and doing it themselves.

MAGA can "believe" this all day long, but it is based on lies and it is destroying the country.

So almighty Dem who sees all--what do we do? How do Dems make the truth sexy enough for MAGA to bite? We know they don't operate based on reason and facts. It's all emotion. How do we dismantle the hatred based on lies. They are standing by while our country, our hard won democracy, is destroyed and watching like zombies as we become an autocratic nation ruled by a demented felon and his oligarch friends.

I don't want to live in Russia, Argentina or Hungary.

What do we do?

With the bolded, you show you still don’t get it, and as far as I am concerned, don’t actually want to fight for American democracy. And for the record, I agree that Trump is a major, major threat to American democracy. I think he wants to be Putin, which is terrifying.

But it is not a lie that Democratic pandemic policies destroyed working class businesses. It is not a lie that working class children were most harmed by school closures actively supported by Democrats. You cannot — if you actually want to save this country — refuse to acknowledge that Democrats have caused serious harm to the working classes with their policies. And you have to recognize that many of their favorite planks (identity, student loan forgiveness, etc) come across as extremely elitist.

So what do we do? Well, most Democrats won’t like it, because it’s going to require humility and admitting profound errors. I don’t actually think the party in its current form can manage it. But, the only way to fight back against any oligarchy is with strong labor and working class. That means abandoning fringe identity issues and focusing on true bread and butter labor issues. For instance, for God’s sake stop having trans musicians that mock Christianity open for Bernie Sanders. Instead go to the churches, embrace the religious. Make the tent bigger. Push out anyone who divides, and hammer home the basics: economic security, fair wages, strong working and middle class, good education. Walk away from useless identity politics. Example: men in women’s sports is something most of the country thinks is outright evil and unfair, and just another sign of how the Democrats are elitist oligarchs themselves.

And yes, that means the laptop classes will have to get their feelings hurt. They will have to admit their policies are wildly unpopular. They will have to admit that they’ve abandoned the working classes, and that their focus on things like DEI was done to preserve their role at the top of the Democratic oligarchy ladder.

I don’t think the party can do it. But the answer to an oligarchy is always strong labor and working classes. That’s it. Anything else is just window dressing.

Maybe the DNC can back to open primaries and not coronating candidates like Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris.

Aren't you bothered by the constant use of the term democracy, when democrats are anything but?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe this isn’t possible? Or do you just not care because you are fooled into believing it will some how benefit you?

I think it's the punch line to that political commentary that you listen to on MSNBC, except you didn't set the joke up right so no one is laughing.

For what it's worth. The tech oligarchy as you refer to them were all Democrats last year. IMO they are a Democrat made monster. They just left your party because your platform cratered. They paid to put Biden in power and wanted to take advantage of temporary Covid emergency to enact long term policy advantages for the rich, but they misunderstood how unpopular the policies were. When Biden got in, he tried to give them everything they wanted green cards, amnesty (they tried to do it anyway at least four times), but they didn't have the votes, so they knifed him. Kamala didn't stand a chance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe this isn’t possible? Or do you just not care because you are fooled into believing it will some how benefit you?

I’m not MAGA. I was one of the Democrats on here begging Democrats to look up (of course nobody did) and who knew Trump would beat Biden, let alone Harris. I think I’m one of the few Democrats posting here that regularly listens to Rogan, Kirk, etc. I’m a Democrat because I am pro-labor, pro-working class (people the Democrats used to care about), but feel alienated from this current identity-focused iteration of the party. Of course I voted for Harris because Trump is a traitor, but I have no love for the current Democrats.

Here is what you don’t understand. The deep red MAGA believe we were in an authoritarian oligarchy under the Democrats. They believe that Democrats used the pandemic to destroy small businesses with their closure and shut-down orders, and to consolidate power into the hands of powerful Democrat donors. They do not believe they receive any benefit whatsoever from government agencies, mostly seeing them as arms of the oligarchy that destroyed small businesses and the education of their children during the pandemic. And these feelings run long and deep: most of them view the pandemic business and school closures as targeted extensions of what Democrats did with NAFTA.

They also view the DEI and identity-focus of current Democrats as explicitly anti-working class. The language of DEI is inexplicable and a clear class marker — no one who isn’t part of the wealthy oligarch class uses incomprehensible terms like “lived experience” in daily conversation — and they feel that it is used by the oligarchs in charge to weaken and isolate them.

So, from the point of view of MAGA, there isn’t a change. That’s what all the hyperventilating out-of-touch posters in DCUM do not understand: the MAGA think we’re already in an authoritarian oligarchy. So, if we are already in one, it might as well be run by someone who doesn’t convey how much he hates them like the Democrats do.

The GOP did their propaganda well. They are very good at accusing the "other side" of what they want to do, selling it hard, and then coming in and doing it themselves.

MAGA can "believe" this all day long, but it is based on lies and it is destroying the country.

So almighty Dem who sees all--what do we do? How do Dems make the truth sexy enough for MAGA to bite? We know they don't operate based on reason and facts. It's all emotion. How do we dismantle the hatred based on lies. They are standing by while our country, our hard won democracy, is destroyed and watching like zombies as we become an autocratic nation ruled by a demented felon and his oligarch friends.

I don't want to live in Russia, Argentina or Hungary.

What do we do?

With the bolded, you show you still don’t get it, and as far as I am concerned, don’t actually want to fight for American democracy. And for the record, I agree that Trump is a major, major threat to American democracy. I think he wants to be Putin, which is terrifying.

But it is not a lie that Democratic pandemic policies destroyed working class businesses. It is not a lie that working class children were most harmed by school closures actively supported by Democrats. You cannot — if you actually want to save this country — refuse to acknowledge that Democrats have caused serious harm to the working classes with their policies. And you have to recognize that many of their favorite planks (identity, student loan forgiveness, etc) come across as extremely elitist.

So what do we do? Well, most Democrats won’t like it, because it’s going to require humility and admitting profound errors. I don’t actually think the party in its current form can manage it. But, the only way to fight back against any oligarchy is with strong labor and working class. That means abandoning fringe identity issues and focusing on true bread and butter labor issues. For instance, for God’s sake stop having trans musicians that mock Christianity open for Bernie Sanders. Instead go to the churches, embrace the religious. Make the tent bigger. Push out anyone who divides, and hammer home the basics: economic security, fair wages, strong working and middle class, good education. Walk away from useless identity politics. Example: men in women’s sports is something most of the country thinks is outright evil and unfair, and just another sign of how the Democrats are elitist oligarchs themselves.

And yes, that means the laptop classes will have to get their feelings hurt. They will have to admit their policies are wildly unpopular. They will have to admit that they’ve abandoned the working classes, and that their focus on things like DEI was done to preserve their role at the top of the Democratic oligarchy ladder.

I don’t think the party can do it. But the answer to an oligarchy is always strong labor and working classes. That’s it. Anything else is just window dressing.

Maybe the DNC can back to open primaries and not coronating candidates like Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris.

Aren't you bothered by the constant use of the term democracy, when democrats are anything but?

Yes, true primaries need to come back. The coronation approach does not work. And yes, I dislike how Democrats abuse the term democracy given the history of many of their policies.

Democrats can win again if they become a true working and middle class party, not an oligarch party that throws DEI words around to assuage their guilty consciences.

[Anonymous]

^^ I posted in another thread about AA Christian voters feeling homeless. These minor changes would make a huge difference in activism and voter turnout. You dont have to abandon everything you want to identify with, but please stop shoving everything down everyone’s throats. I’m Christian, my brother is a Gay Christian, and I have Muslim cousins. You can please some of the people some od the time, but you cant please all of the people all the time. We know how to manage our different identities without breaking out into fights. We respect each other. Democrats need to focus on the things we cant manage, like discriminatory lending practices, or having a non-existent solid middle class labor market, or climate change (esp important to younger voters). We arent all trying to be rich. We just want to be secure in a stable country.

The 2020 elections had too many candidates competing for the same thing the party isn’t unified.

However, I’ll never vote for Trump or any of his minions. We finally convinced my (very religious) grandmother not to vote for Trump this past election. But you cant keep win elections solely by hating on the other opponent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:wtf does this even mean? I voted for Trump but he’s doing stupid stuff now and probably will lose to the Dems in 2026 and 2028 which is how democracy should work.

You’re right that a working democracy would probably mean Republican losses to the Democrats in 2026 and 2028 (or impeachment if necessary before then), BUT:

On January 6, 2021 Republicans first tried to present fraudulent slates of electors, ignoring the actual votes of Americans to overturn the actual results of the 2020 election.

When the procedural coup was unsuccessful, Trump incited a violent insurrection and withheld reinforcements to secure the Capitol, protect Congress, and restore order.

He maintains (to this day) that the 2020 election was fraudulent besides being told otherwise by HIS attorney general, HIS top election security official, 62 failed lawsuits, (Republican) state election officials, and an “audit” of the Maricopa County, Arizona votes.

He has publicly stated that in order to prevent future election fraud (which he apparently defines as any election that he loses) he is willing to terminate any rules INCLUDING THOSE IN THE CONSTITUTION (that he swore to defend

He told voters before the 2020 election that if they voted for him in 2020, they wouldn’t have to vote again.

He keeps floating the idea of a third term despite the Constitution’s presidential term limits (and as indicated above, he’s gone on record saying he is willing to terminate the Constitution if HE decides its necessary).

In light of all this, how can you be confident that democracy will work as it should?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe this isn’t possible? Or do you just not care because you are fooled into believing it will some how benefit you?

Authoritarian Oligarchy - Anyone democrats don't like. It's the new Racist!, Hitler!, Nazi!

No, just Trump because he is all those things and more.

[Anonymous]

I think most Americans are not fit for democracy anymore .

They can't identify an active threat

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authoritarianism is fine when it’s their team. Also, some probably don’t think they’ll ever lose again so it’s fine. (The project 2025 people definitely think this.)

They may benefit for awhile. They’ll always have to look over their shoulder. But the average MAGA voter won’t benefit.

It's always YOU that has to benefit from your votes, right?

Can't possibly be the whole country benefiting, huh? You leftists always have to break people down into groups and pit them against each other for power.

Your heritage bros and tech bros are the ones dividing you. How many times have we said to you that you and me are more alike than we are with them?

I’ve Been at NPR for 25 Years. Here’s How We Lost America’s Trust.

Uri Berliner, a veteran at the public radio institution, says the network lost its way when it started telling listeners how to think.

https://www.thefp.com/p/npr-editor-how-npr-lost-americas-trust

The cognitive dissonance is real.

[Anonymous]

I lived through the Obama and Biden presidencies. Of course I know authoritarians that destroy civil liberties exist! What a silly question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I lived through the Obama and Biden presidencies. Of course I know authoritarians that destroy civil liberties exist! What a silly question.

like what kind of civil liberties..pray tell?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I lived through the Obama and Biden presidencies. Of course I know authoritarians that destroy civil liberties exist! What a silly question.

like what kind of civil liberties..pray tell?

Extra-judicial drone killing of American citizens (by Obama) abroad. That truly was unprecedented.

Destruction of title IX by Biden.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I lived through the Obama and Biden presidencies. Of course I know authoritarians that destroy civil liberties exist! What a silly question.

like what kind of civil liberties..pray tell?

Extra-judicial drone killing of American citizens (by Obama) abroad. That truly was unprecedented.

Destruction of title IX by Biden.

Suppression of speech via state power over social media companies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I lived through the Obama and Biden presidencies. Of course I know authoritarians that destroy civil liberties exist! What a silly question.

like what kind of civil liberties..pray tell?

Extra-judicial drone killing of American citizens (by Obama) abroad. That truly was unprecedented.

Destruction of title IX by Biden.

Suppression of speech via state power over social media companies.

Lame. First, Obama/biden administration didn't try to dismantle every democratic safeguards known to mankind, suggest they should defy SC orders, and try to stage a coup w/J6 protesters. One is about disagreement about policies vs actual, direct attack on our democracy. On all of what you used as examples, these presidents were were actively trying to do something to help the country - not blatantly doing something to expand their personal power which this one is currently doing..I don't understand what's wrong with trying to expand protection of minorities and stop misinformation (bc we all know facts matter and social media is toxic slide). So ... yeah please do not compare Trump with Biden and Obama.. one is personally amassing power for himself.. direct attack on democracy. Absolutely not the same..WAKE UP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I lived through the Obama and Biden presidencies. Of course I know authoritarians that destroy civil liberties exist! What a silly question.

like what kind of civil liberties..pray tell?

Extra-judicial drone killing of American citizens (by Obama) abroad. That truly was unprecedented.

Destruction of title IX by Biden.

Suppression of speech via state power over social media companies.

Lame. First, Obama/biden administration didn't try to dismantle every democratic safeguards known to mankind, suggest they should defy SC orders, and try to stage a coup w/J6 protesters. One is about disagreement about policies vs actual, direct attack on our democracy. On all of what you used as examples, these presidents were were actively trying to do something to help the country - not blatantly doing something to expand their personal power which this one is currently doing..I don't understand what's wrong with trying to expand protection of minorities and stop misinformation (bc we all know facts matter and social media is toxic slide). So ... yeah please do not compare Trump with Biden and Obama.. one is personally amassing power for himself.. direct attack on democracy. Absolutely not the same..WAKE UP.

Facts that can't be disputed- Obama was a legitimate POTUS and a very good national leader. Biden's talent maxed out at Senator and he obviously should have never been POTUS but he was deserving of a public service role. Trump should have never been considered for a role in public service.