John Francis Middle vs. Stuart Hobson (or maybe Eliot Hine)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stuart Hobson also has good results in National History Day and a solid debate team. Lots of cross-pollination with the drama track kids, which is unsurprising.

OP here! National History day thing is really good to know. I work in education and think this is an incredible program. (Also I was a drama kid, so love that too about SH.) Hope that if we end up at Francis

This thread has been great food for thought...keep it coming!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any reason you aren't considering Latin, which is probably the best middle school for an "above average but not stellar student"? We aren't there btw, but have been through this decision (also zoned for Cardozo high) and if you were my friend (maybe you are!), that would be my recommendation.


For Francis vs SH -- SH has better academics at the top end (Geometry and National History Day), but Francis is smaller and maybe a less chaotic environment? And there is more buy-in every year from engaged parents and a push for stronger advanced work. So there is some hope for that.

We were at a Francis feeder and my main reservation with it is that they are way too dependent on screens and apps.

Depending on what you are looking for, EH is going to be similar size to SH by next year - their enrollment was 415 this year, and due to a smaller 8th grade class that is moving to high school this summer, their projected enrollment is 500+ for next year. IMO, higher enrollment does mean things are a bit busier, but it also means more funding, more clubs and sports, more advanced classes, and more electives/arts.

Zero chance I’d choose EH over SH and OP isn’t even asking about EH.

... The subject of the thread mentions Eliot Hine as a consideration...

OP here. Yes...I am thinking EH but am primarily interested in the other two. Happy to get impressions of EH as well however.

It's okay to Latin Boost. To be honest, I would love to send my kid to Latin - I think it would be a great fit and would take care of the high school problem. But I'm being realistic about our lottery chances for an only child with no sibling preference and no equitable access preference. I am not anti-Basis by any means, it's been great for some of my friends' kids. But I don't think it's the right fit for my particular kid.

I am not counting on application high schools since yes, my kid is fairly smart but not a genius. But I wouldn't totally count them out either. Kid is still in ES (obviously) but I imagine will apply when the time comes. We are saving for private as a high school backup, but are trying to avoid going that route for middle if possible. We live in center city so SH and Francis are both commutable to. My impression is that both are worth a serious look. Curious if a) that's true and b) one is preferable to the other?

Thank you for the answers - keep them coming!

I prefer SH. Harder classes than Francis, and you would have Eastern as a backup high school, instead of Cardozo.

The only tricky thing is that Francis is on an upward trajectory, so it's harder to say which will be better in 5 years.

Eastern as a back-up HS? Nutty. Umm, there are only two dozen white students enrolled at Eastern, almost 20 years since the IB Diploma program was established there. Planning on using Eastern as a backup sound seriously naive to this Hill denizen of 25 years.

I know many parents that are thinking of Eastern as an option along with application high schools. Following Eastern IB on social media (insta) has been a good glimpse of what that program is like. I think it’s great to see Eastern doing more to connect with feeder schools in various ways, and I’m encouraged by the growing interest I am seeing (maybe more amongst people not on this forum)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stuart Hobson also has good results in National History Day and a solid debate team. Lots of cross-pollination with the drama track kids, which is unsurprising.

Revising...

OP here! National History day thing is really good to know. I work in education and think this is an incredible program. (Also I was a drama kid, so love that too about SH.) Hope that if we end up at Francis they're able to get similar programming...but this does argue for SH.

This thread has been great food for thought...keep it coming!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are IB for Francis, and considering it for next year MS. But I put SH in the lottery.
I am conflicted- I do not know any family in either school and nothing about the school culture. My child is on the introverted side, very science and piano inclined and not as much into sports (just soccer). So smaller and contained schools are a better fit for him.

Looking at the score cards (https://schoolreportcard.dc.gov/home), it seems that Francis outperforms SH.

I also would appreciate any feedback you may have.

Yes, the school report cards (based on test scores) misses a lot of nuance. For example, SH has a more advanced math track; I believe kids can take algebra in 7th and geometry in 8th, which puts them on par with the rest of the high achieving math kids in high school. But at Francis, the most you can do is algebra in 8th, so kids will always be behind by a year.

Similarly, with social studies, SH has National History Day, which basically serves as a months long way to do advanced work. Francis used to have it but doesn't anymore.

SH is objectively better at the high end. But they have *more* lower performing kids, so the overall test scores reflect that.

Important to know this stuff, but also important to recognize that these are school leadership decisions and can change from year to year. DCPS does try to put Geometry at every middle school that has a few kids able to take it, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it at Francis.

Sure, but the fact is that Francis doesn't have those things (geometry/NHD/opps for advancement) right now. It's hard enough to make these decisions based on comparisons of reality, much less comparisons based on hypothetical futures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any reason you aren't considering Latin, which is probably the best middle school for an "above average but not stellar student"? We aren't there btw, but have been through this decision (also zoned for Cardozo high) and if you were my friend (maybe you are!), that would be my recommendation.


For Francis vs SH -- SH has better academics at the top end (Geometry and National History Day), but Francis is smaller and maybe a less chaotic environment? And there is more buy-in every year from engaged parents and a push for stronger advanced work. So there is some hope for that.

We were at a Francis feeder and my main reservation with it is that they are way too dependent on screens and apps.

Depending on what you are looking for, EH is going to be similar size to SH by next year - their enrollment was 415 this year, and due to a smaller 8th grade class that is moving to high school this summer, their projected enrollment is 500+ for next year. IMO, higher enrollment does mean things are a bit busier, but it also means more funding, more clubs and sports, more advanced classes, and more electives/arts.

Zero chance I’d choose EH over SH and OP isn’t even asking about EH.

... The subject of the thread mentions Eliot Hine as a consideration...

OP here. Yes...I am thinking EH but am primarily interested in the other two. Happy to get impressions of EH as well however.

It's okay to Latin Boost. To be honest, I would love to send my kid to Latin - I think it would be a great fit and would take care of the high school problem. But I'm being realistic about our lottery chances for an only child with no sibling preference and no equitable access preference. I am not anti-Basis by any means, it's been great for some of my friends' kids. But I don't think it's the right fit for my particular kid.

I am not counting on application high schools since yes, my kid is fairly smart but not a genius. But I wouldn't totally count them out either. Kid is still in ES (obviously) but I imagine will apply when the time comes. We are saving for private as a high school backup, but are trying to avoid going that route for middle if possible. We live in center city so SH and Francis are both commutable to. My impression is that both are worth a serious look. Curious if a) that's true and b) one is preferable to the other?

Thank you for the answers - keep them coming!

I prefer SH. Harder classes than Francis, and you would have Eastern as a backup high school, instead of Cardozo.

The only tricky thing is that Francis is on an upward trajectory, so it's harder to say which will be better in 5 years.

Eastern as a back-up HS? Nutty. Umm, there are only two dozen white students enrolled at Eastern, almost 20 years since the IB Diploma program was established there. Planning on using Eastern as a backup sound seriously naive to this Hill denizen of 25 years.

I know many parents that are thinking of Eastern as an option along with application high schools. Following Eastern IB on social media (insta) has been a good glimpse of what that program is like. I think it’s great to see Eastern doing more to connect with feeder schools in various ways, and I’m encouraged by the growing interest I am seeing (maybe more amongst people not on this forum)

I was going to hop and say something similar. If you have lived here for 25 years and have had kids in school and/or paid attention to education, you would know that schools, neighborhoods, and communities are constantly shifting, growing, and changing. As has been discussed on countless threads here, there are more middle and high school students in DC public schools right now than in previous decades, the novelty of (many, not all) charter schools is wearing off, and several neighborhood DCPS schools (Cap Hill schools for sure) are getting more buy-in across all grade levels. While this has not trickled up to the high school level as much as it has for ES and MS, the past several years have seen increased enrollment at many public high schools, including Eastern.
And lastly, to reference a discussion on another high school thread posted last week, can we stop with the 'x number of white kids= a good school' magic equation people have in their heads. There are all families and kids from all backgrounds looking for strong program.

[Anonymous]

Lol. No. Sending your kid to Eastern has been and continues to be, an option only for zealots who prioritize their own urban trailblazer cred over their kids’ education.

[Anonymous]

It is all relative. Eastern is a better backup (meaning maybe you could try it or at least consider doing so if no other options pan out) to Cardozo. With these 3 middle school options, go with what is closest. John Francis is going to have a much larger 6th grade class next year with the new Seaton, Garrison, and Cleveland feeds which may mean more advanced/accelerated programming options for the relatively more advanced students over time. SH is probably still all things equal generally preferred to EH but its increasingly a lot closer question than it used to be and maybe even partially based on SH’s reputation as the historically stronger school. If you already attend an EH feeder or its a closer commute to EH, maybe you choose EH. If you dont land a SH lottery spot, Id also look hard at EH.

[Anonymous]

Oh come on, Eastern is no back-up at all, other than for a tiny number of UMC Hill families. This is just as much of a no-brainer as it was a decade back. The fact that the Eastern District is more than half white while the school's white enrollment is stuck in the low single digits tells us that it's not in fact "all relative." The school is a veritable dead end. Where's the bridge to Eastern, with most UMC Hill families avoiding the several feeder middle schools? And even if these kids do stick with DCPS for middle school, almost all of them run to Walls, Ellington, Banneker, privates or the burbs for high school. Those are the true "back ups," not Eastern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh come on, Eastern is no back-up at all, other than for a tiny number of UMC Hill families. This is just as much of a no-brainer as it was a decade back. The fact that the Eastern District is more than half white while the school's white enrollment is stuck in the low single digits tells us that it's not in fact "all relative." The school is a veritable dead end. Where's the bridge to Eastern, with most UMC Hill families avoiding the several feeder middle schools? And even if these kids do stick with DCPS for middle school, almost all of them run to Walls, Ellington, Banneker, privates or the burbs for high school. Those are the true "back ups," not Eastern.

I realize it is probably pointless to engage, but I really don't get why people get so angry and defensive about schools that they don't go to. It is fine to choose any school that fits your need, but I am not sure what it is about a certain subset of the DCUM community that makes them feel better after coming on anonymous forums to insult others' choices.

Back to what was said above, things/enrollment trends change year to year, for a variety of reasons. There are hundreds of kids from Cap Hill elementary schools happy at the DCPS middle schools, as well as some kids who have returned there after trying various charters. There are also kids/families who are happy at charters or privates, which is great. More options doesn't need to be a bad thing.

Again with the white student metric for high schools, but if you insist on it, those aren't the accurate numbers currently anyway. For the families who are there, maybe they enroll there due to not getting in elsewhere, maybe it's for the IB or EPIC program or the E-Sports program. Who knows, and really not sure why everybody gets so upset about it!

[Anonymous]

Honestly, none of the schools mentioned in this thread should be a consideration if you have a high performing kid.

Guess if your kid is average and on grade level, he will be happy to be at the top of the class. Not sure if he will be stretched or challenge though.

That’s the reality of the situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh come on, Eastern is no back-up at all, other than for a tiny number of UMC Hill families. This is just as much of a no-brainer as it was a decade back. The fact that the Eastern District is more than half white while the school's white enrollment is stuck in the low single digits tells us that it's not in fact "all relative." The school is a veritable dead end. Where's the bridge to Eastern, with most UMC Hill families avoiding the several feeder middle schools? And even if these kids do stick with DCPS for middle school, almost all of them run to Walls, Ellington, Banneker, privates or the burbs for high school. Those are the true "back ups," not Eastern.

I realize it is probably pointless to engage, but I really don't get why people get so angry and defensive about schools that they don't go to. It is fine to choose any school that fits your need, but I am not sure what it is about a certain subset of the DCUM community that makes them feel better after coming on anonymous forums to insult others' choices.

Back to what was said above, things/enrollment trends change year to year, for a variety of reasons. There are hundreds of kids from Cap Hill elementary schools happy at the DCPS middle schools, as well as some kids who have returned there after trying various charters. There are also kids/families who are happy at charters or privates, which is great. More options doesn't need to be a bad thing.

Again with the white student metric for high schools, but if you insist on it, those aren't the accurate numbers currently anyway. For the families who are there, maybe they enroll there due to not getting in elsewhere, maybe it's for the IB or EPIC program or the E-Sports program. Who knows, and really not sure why everybody gets so upset about it!

I agree it’s a strange reaction but I think it’s just a handful of really intense posters—maybe really two or three—who respond to these threads with anger and scorn. They post a lot, and it makes it seem like there are more of them than there are.

[Anonymous]

Almost all of the UMC families in the neighborhood continue to vote with their feet away from Eastern and those who politely point this out are the problem?

Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, none of the schools mentioned in this thread should be a consideration if you have a high performing kid.

Guess if your kid is average and on grade level, he will be happy to be at the top of the class. Not sure if he will be stretched or challenge though.

That’s the reality of the situation.

This is dumb. SH has had happy genuinely high performing students who go on to do well at Walls and privates. I know multiple top students at our feeder who are now doing well at SH and enjoying their time there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh come on, Eastern is no back-up at all, other than for a tiny number of UMC Hill families. This is just as much of a no-brainer as it was a decade back. The fact that the Eastern District is more than half white while the school's white enrollment is stuck in the low single digits tells us that it's not in fact "all relative." The school is a veritable dead end. Where's the bridge to Eastern, with most UMC Hill families avoiding the several feeder middle schools? And even if these kids do stick with DCPS for middle school, almost all of them run to Walls, Ellington, Banneker, privates or the burbs for high school. Those are the true "back ups," not Eastern.

Again with the white student metric for high schools, but if you insist on it, those aren't the accurate numbers currently anyway. For the families who are there, maybe they enroll there due to not getting in elsewhere, maybe it's for the IB or EPIC program or the E-Sports program. Who knows, and really not sure why everybody gets so upset about it!

DP. What's not accurate about the numbers? There were 21 white students in last year's Eastern audit. 153 in Eastern's middle school feeders and 1,812 in Eastern's elementary school feeders.

I'd agree it's growing, but still rather slowly. In 2019-2020 (when the 2023-2024 seniors were in 8th grade), there were only 96 white students at Eastern's middle school feeders. And in 2016-2017 (when the 2023-2024 seniors were in 5th grade), there were 1,402 white students at Eastern's elementary school feeders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, none of the schools mentioned in this thread should be a consideration if you have a high performing kid.

Guess if your kid is average and on grade level, he will be happy to be at the top of the class. Not sure if he will be stretched or challenge though.

That’s the reality of the situation.

This is dumb. SH has had happy genuinely high performing students who go on to do well at Walls and privates. I know multiple top students at our feeder who are now doing well at SH and enjoying their time there.

First of all, what you know is anecdotal. Data doesn’t lie. SH does not have any significant groups of high performing kids. 4% of the kids are above grade level in math. That’s 4 out of 100. 15% in ELA. These numbers are abysmal. So the “multiple” top students at your feeder are the small minority in the numbers above or they have regressed and now are not testing above grade level and are on grade level.

Secondly, what the very small minority of UMC families don’t tell you who send their kids is that they supplement alot.


So