John Francis Middle vs. Stuart Hobson (or maybe Eliot Hine)

[Anonymous]

Latin lottery was harder than ever last year.

[Anonymous]

Stuart Hobson. I would not consider Elliot Hine.

[Anonymous]

FWIW, we are IB for Eliot Hine but at a Stuart Hobson feeder, and right now we're leaning towards Stuart Hobson but keeping EH as an option (we have 3.5 years until MS). Obviously in our situation we have the option of just opting into our IB school, but if you decide you want EH, I pretty much guarantee you could lottery into Miner at 4th or 5th and get that feed if you wanted it.

SH is bigger and offers more in terms of both academics and activities. It also seems kind of chaotic and stressful at times, based on what friends whose kids are there now say. Mixed reviews on the teachers and there are fights at school though they seem easy to avoid. We know fewer people at EH despite living IB for it but it sounds similar but just smaller. They have a nice newish building at EH but it is apparently still under capacity.

The idea of a smaller school is honestly appealing to me (our kid is super shy and has some sensory issues that make me very nervous about SH based on what I've heard) but my DH keeps pointing out that EH is smaller because of lack of interest from IB families, and that's true. I know SH also has issues with IB buy in, but it sounds like more people are buying in now than even a few years ago, and that it's also a popular OOB destination for good reasons -- people rave about the theater program and the wide range of sports programming, for instance, and seem to think it's math and academics are better.

I guess my point is that SH is definitely the more in-demand school and that has to be for a reason. I wouldn't rule EH out, but it would be pretty easy to get a spot at a feeder in 5th if you decided you wanted a chance at it. It also might be easier to lottery directly into.

We also intend to lottery for Latin for sure but I think it's really unlikely (even lotterying for both campuses) because no sibling preference for us. We also haven't ruled out moving if we don't get into Latin and SH or EH turns out not to be a good fit. We don't really see Eastern as a great HS option.

[Anonymous]

Potentially silly tangential question from a parent of a Pre-K kiddo who hasn't thought about middle school at all yet: if you are IB for SH or EH, isn't Latin a horrible commute? Is there something I'm missing there?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, we are IB for Eliot Hine but at a Stuart Hobson feeder, and right now we're leaning towards Stuart Hobson but keeping EH as an option (we have 3.5 years until MS). Obviously in our situation we have the option of just opting into our IB school, but if you decide you want EH, I pretty much guarantee you could lottery into Miner at 4th or 5th and get that feed if you wanted it.

SH is bigger and offers more in terms of both academics and activities. It also seems kind of chaotic and stressful at times, based on what friends whose kids are there now say. Mixed reviews on the teachers and there are fights at school though they seem easy to avoid. We know fewer people at EH despite living IB for it but it sounds similar but just smaller. They have a nice newish building at EH but it is apparently still under capacity.

The idea of a smaller school is honestly appealing to me (our kid is super shy and has some sensory issues that make me very nervous about SH based on what I've heard) but my DH keeps pointing out that EH is smaller because of lack of interest from IB families, and that's true. I know SH also has issues with IB buy in, but it sounds like more people are buying in now than even a few years ago, and that it's also a popular OOB destination for good reasons -- people rave about the theater program and the wide range of sports programming, for instance, and seem to think it's math and academics are better.

I guess my point is that SH is definitely the more in-demand school and that has to be for a reason. I wouldn't rule EH out, but it would be pretty easy to get a spot at a feeder in 5th if you decided you wanted a chance at it. It also might be easier to lottery directly into.

We also intend to lottery for Latin for sure but I think it's really unlikely (even lotterying for both campuses) because no sibling preference for us. We also haven't ruled out moving if we don't get into Latin and SH or EH turns out not to be a good fit. We don't really see Eastern as a great HS option.

Not to get too far in the weeds, but for those of you with 2nd-4th graders, it is worth watching enrollment trends as they change from year to year. As was mentioned above, protections for next year have SH and EH as the same size, which people may view as good or bad depending on what size school they want. In the past 3-4 years there has been a huge uptick in feeder enrollment at EH, with the sixth grade the past few years being so large they need to hire an additional teacher. They also are getting kids from various charter schools who live in the boundary, so they are guaranteed a spot even if they didn't go to a feeder.
I do agree with the prior poster that you could probably get into Miner (and probably JO Wilson, especially while they are doing their renovations) if you wanted to get into one of those two schools. They're taking fewer out of bounds lottery seats every year.

[Anonymous]

We are IB for Francis, and considering it for next year MS. But I put SH in the lottery.
I am conflicted- I do not know any family in either school and nothing about the school culture. My child is on the introverted side, very science and piano inclined and not as much into sports (just soccer). So smaller and contained schools are a better fit for him.

Looking at the score cards (https://schoolreportcard.dc.gov/home), it seems that Francis outperforms SH.

I also would appreciate any feedback you may have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Potentially silly tangential question from a parent of a Pre-K kiddo who hasn't thought about middle school at all yet: if you are IB for SH or EH, isn't Latin a horrible commute? Is there something I'm missing there?

There are buses that pick up from Capitol Hill. You pay a fee for your kid to use them. Seems like older kids just take public transit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are IB for Francis, and considering it for next year MS. But I put SH in the lottery.
I am conflicted- I do not know any family in either school and nothing about the school culture. My child is on the introverted side, very science and piano inclined and not as much into sports (just soccer). So smaller and contained schools are a better fit for him.

Looking at the score cards (https://schoolreportcard.dc.gov/home), it seems that Francis outperforms SH.

I also would appreciate any feedback you may have.

Yes, the school report cards (based on test scores) misses a lot of nuance. For example, SH has a more advanced math track; I believe kids can take algebra in 7th and geometry in 8th, which puts them on par with the rest of the high achieving math kids in high school. But at Francis, the most you can do is algebra in 8th, so kids will always be behind by a year.

Similarly, with social studies, SH has National History Day, which basically serves as a months long way to do advanced work. Francis used to have it but doesn't anymore.

SH is objectively better at the high end. But they have *more* lower performing kids, so the overall test scores reflect that.

[Anonymous]

Thank you! This is very helpful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are IB for Francis, and considering it for next year MS. But I put SH in the lottery.
I am conflicted- I do not know any family in either school and nothing about the school culture. My child is on the introverted side, very science and piano inclined and not as much into sports (just soccer). So smaller and contained schools are a better fit for him.

Looking at the score cards (https://schoolreportcard.dc.gov/home), it seems that Francis outperforms SH.

I also would appreciate any feedback you may have.

Yes, the school report cards (based on test scores) misses a lot of nuance. For example, SH has a more advanced math track; I believe kids can take algebra in 7th and geometry in 8th, which puts them on par with the rest of the high achieving math kids in high school. But at Francis, the most you can do is algebra in 8th, so kids will always be behind by a year.

Similarly, with social studies, SH has National History Day, which basically serves as a months long way to do advanced work. Francis used to have it but doesn't anymore.

SH is objectively better at the high end. But they have *more* lower performing kids, so the overall test scores reflect that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are IB for Francis, and considering it for next year MS. But I put SH in the lottery.
I am conflicted- I do not know any family in either school and nothing about the school culture. My child is on the introverted side, very science and piano inclined and not as much into sports (just soccer). So smaller and contained schools are a better fit for him.

Looking at the score cards (https://schoolreportcard.dc.gov/home), it seems that Francis outperforms SH.

I also would appreciate any feedback you may have.

Yes, the school report cards (based on test scores) misses a lot of nuance. For example, SH has a more advanced math track; I believe kids can take algebra in 7th and geometry in 8th, which puts them on par with the rest of the high achieving math kids in high school. But at Francis, the most you can do is algebra in 8th, so kids will always be behind by a year.

Similarly, with social studies, SH has National History Day, which basically serves as a months long way to do advanced work. Francis used to have it but doesn't anymore.

SH is objectively better at the high end. But they have *more* lower performing kids, so the overall test scores reflect that.

Important to know this stuff, but also important to recognize that these are school leadership decisions and can change from year to year. DCPS does try to put Geometry at every middle school that has a few kids able to take it, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it at Francis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are IB for Francis, and considering it for next year MS. But I put SH in the lottery.
I am conflicted- I do not know any family in either school and nothing about the school culture. My child is on the introverted side, very science and piano inclined and not as much into sports (just soccer). So smaller and contained schools are a better fit for him.

Looking at the score cards (https://schoolreportcard.dc.gov/home), it seems that Francis outperforms SH.

I also would appreciate any feedback you may have.

Yes, the school report cards (based on test scores) misses a lot of nuance. For example, SH has a more advanced math track; I believe kids can take algebra in 7th and geometry in 8th, which puts them on par with the rest of the high achieving math kids in high school. But at Francis, the most you can do is algebra in 8th, so kids will always be behind by a year.

Similarly, with social studies, SH has National History Day, which basically serves as a months long way to do advanced work. Francis used to have it but doesn't anymore.

SH is objectively better at the high end. But they have *more* lower performing kids, so the overall test scores reflect that.

Important to know this stuff, but also important to recognize that these are school leadership decisions and can change from year to year. DCPS does try to put Geometry at every middle school that has a few kids able to take it, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it at Francis.

We've looked into this a lot and SH seems to remain the best of the other* (not Deal/Hardy/Latins/BASIS) destinations for a high or high-ish achieving kid. Larger cohort of high performers. More advanced classes. Great performing arts (musical theatre & band, specifically), which also operates as way to get into a good group (kids who care about school); coming from a feeder, it is known that kids opt into the drama track who aren't super into performing (they can do stage crew, lighting, etc) because it's a good group of teachers and kids.

[Anonymous]

Stuart Hobson also has good results in National History Day and a solid debate team. Lots of cross-pollination with the drama track kids, which is unsurprising.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, we are IB for Eliot Hine but at a Stuart Hobson feeder, and right now we're leaning towards Stuart Hobson but keeping EH as an option (we have 3.5 years until MS). Obviously in our situation we have the option of just opting into our IB school, but if you decide you want EH, I pretty much guarantee you could lottery into Miner at 4th or 5th and get that feed if you wanted it.

SH is bigger and offers more in terms of both academics and activities. It also seems kind of chaotic and stressful at times, based on what friends whose kids are there now say. Mixed reviews on the teachers and there are fights at school though they seem easy to avoid. We know fewer people at EH despite living IB for it but it sounds similar but just smaller. They have a nice newish building at EH but it is apparently still under capacity.

The idea of a smaller school is honestly appealing to me (our kid is super shy and has some sensory issues that make me very nervous about SH based on what I've heard) but my DH keeps pointing out that EH is smaller because of lack of interest from IB families, and that's true. I know SH also has issues with IB buy in, but it sounds like more people are buying in now than even a few years ago, and that it's also a popular OOB destination for good reasons -- people rave about the theater program and the wide range of sports programming, for instance, and seem to think it's math and academics are better.

I guess my point is that SH is definitely the more in-demand school and that has to be for a reason. I wouldn't rule EH out, but it would be pretty easy to get a spot at a feeder in 5th if you decided you wanted a chance at it. It also might be easier to lottery directly into.

We also intend to lottery for Latin for sure but I think it's really unlikely (even lotterying for both campuses) because no sibling preference for us. We also haven't ruled out moving if we don't get into Latin and SH or EH turns out not to be a good fit. We don't really see Eastern as a great HS option.

Not to get too far in the weeds, but for those of you with 2nd-4th graders, it is worth watching enrollment trends as they change from year to year. As was mentioned above, protections for next year have SH and EH as the same size, which people may view as good or bad depending on what size school they want. In the past 3-4 years there has been a huge uptick in feeder enrollment at EH, with the sixth grade the past few years being so large they need to hire an additional teacher. They also are getting kids from various charter schools who live in the boundary, so they are guaranteed a spot even if they didn't go to a feeder.
I do agree with the prior poster that you could probably get into Miner (and probably JO Wilson, especially while they are doing their renovations) if you wanted to get into one of those two schools. They're taking fewer out of bounds lottery seats every year.

I would be cautious about any plan that involves lotterying into a new school for 4th or 5th grade for a feeder middle. 5th grade is a challenging year because of the charter lottery. Many kids are stressed about their own prospects as a result of the lottery and sad because cohorts are being broken up. Lotterying into a new school with likely no pre-existing friends for a year or two and then moving to middle school with a whole new group of kids could be challenging at a time when hormones and emotions are running high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, we are IB for Eliot Hine but at a Stuart Hobson feeder, and right now we're leaning towards Stuart Hobson but keeping EH as an option (we have 3.5 years until MS). Obviously in our situation we have the option of just opting into our IB school, but if you decide you want EH, I pretty much guarantee you could lottery into Miner at 4th or 5th and get that feed if you wanted it.

SH is bigger and offers more in terms of both academics and activities. It also seems kind of chaotic and stressful at times, based on what friends whose kids are there now say. Mixed reviews on the teachers and there are fights at school though they seem easy to avoid. We know fewer people at EH despite living IB for it but it sounds similar but just smaller. They have a nice newish building at EH but it is apparently still under capacity.

The idea of a smaller school is honestly appealing to me (our kid is super shy and has some sensory issues that make me very nervous about SH based on what I've heard) but my DH keeps pointing out that EH is smaller because of lack of interest from IB families, and that's true. I know SH also has issues with IB buy in, but it sounds like more people are buying in now than even a few years ago, and that it's also a popular OOB destination for good reasons -- people rave about the theater program and the wide range of sports programming, for instance, and seem to think it's math and academics are better.

I guess my point is that SH is definitely the more in-demand school and that has to be for a reason. I wouldn't rule EH out, but it would be pretty easy to get a spot at a feeder in 5th if you decided you wanted a chance at it. It also might be easier to lottery directly into.

We also intend to lottery for Latin for sure but I think it's really unlikely (even lotterying for both campuses) because no sibling preference for us. We also haven't ruled out moving if we don't get into Latin and SH or EH turns out not to be a good fit. We don't really see Eastern as a great HS option.

Not to get too far in the weeds, but for those of you with 2nd-4th graders, it is worth watching enrollment trends as they change from year to year. As was mentioned above, protections for next year have SH and EH as the same size, which people may view as good or bad depending on what size school they want. In the past 3-4 years there has been a huge uptick in feeder enrollment at EH, with the sixth grade the past few years being so large they need to hire an additional teacher. They also are getting kids from various charter schools who live in the boundary, so they are guaranteed a spot even if they didn't go to a feeder.
I do agree with the prior poster that you could probably get into Miner (and probably JO Wilson, especially while they are doing their renovations) if you wanted to get into one of those two schools. They're taking fewer out of bounds lottery seats every year.

I would be cautious about any plan that involves lotterying into a new school for 4th or 5th grade for a feeder middle. 5th grade is a challenging year because of the charter lottery. Many kids are stressed about their own prospects as a result of the lottery and sad because cohorts are being broken up. Lotterying into a new school with likely no pre-existing friends for a year or two and then moving to middle school with a whole new group of kids could be challenging at a time when hormones and emotions are running high.

From what you're describing, it sounds like 5th grade is rough whether or not you stay put. And isn't the idea that if you lottery into a middle school feeder in 5th, a lot of those other 5th graders will be moving on to the same feeder middle school in 6th, since they missed out on the charters that start in 5th?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any reason you aren't considering Latin, which is probably the best middle school for an "above average but not stellar student"? We aren't there btw, but have been through this decision (also zoned for Cardozo high) and if you were my friend (maybe you are!), that would be my recommendation.


For Francis vs SH -- SH has better academics at the top end (Geometry and National History Day), but Francis is smaller and maybe a less chaotic environment? And there is more buy-in every year from engaged parents and a push for stronger advanced work. So there is some hope for that.

We were at a Francis feeder and my main reservation with it is that they are way too dependent on screens and apps.

Depending on what you are looking for, EH is going to be similar size to SH by next year - their enrollment was 415 this year, and due to a smaller 8th grade class that is moving to high school this summer, their projected enrollment is 500+ for next year. IMO, higher enrollment does mean things are a bit busier, but it also means more funding, more clubs and sports, more advanced classes, and more electives/arts.

Zero chance I’d choose EH over SH and OP isn’t even asking about EH.

... The subject of the thread mentions Eliot Hine as a consideration...

OP here. Yes...I am thinking EH but am primarily interested in the other two. Happy to get impressions of EH as well however.

It's okay to Latin Boost. To be honest, I would love to send my kid to Latin - I think it would be a great fit and would take care of the high school problem. But I'm being realistic about our lottery chances for an only child with no sibling preference and no equitable access preference. I am not anti-Basis by any means, it's been great for some of my friends' kids. But I don't think it's the right fit for my particular kid.

I am not counting on application high schools since yes, my kid is fairly smart but not a genius. But I wouldn't totally count them out either. Kid is still in ES (obviously) but I imagine will apply when the time comes. We are saving for private as a high school backup, but are trying to avoid going that route for middle if possible. We live in center city so SH and Francis are both commutable to. My impression is that both are worth a serious look. Curious if a) that's true and b) one is preferable to the other?

Thank you for the answers - keep them coming!

I prefer SH. Harder classes than Francis, and you would have Eastern as a backup high school, instead of Cardozo.

The only tricky thing is that Francis is on an upward trajectory, so it's harder to say which will be better in 5 years.

Eastern as a back-up HS? Nutty. Umm, there are only two dozen white students enrolled at Eastern, almost 20 years since the IB Diploma program was established there. Planning on using Eastern as a backup sound seriously naive to this Hill denizen of 25 years.