5-year-old behavior issues in Kindergarten - what should we do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my kid at 4.

It was the school. There was one bad teacher who yelled and couldn't manage behavior of other kids in the class. It turns out my child was terrified of the teacher and the wild kids, so they'd "check out" to cope. The "checking out" got my kid labeled as a concern by the teaching team and my kid sensed it.

We switched schools at 5 and the teachers have had nothing to say except that child is a normal, happy kid learning on pace. They have "best friends" at school, they are engaged in the classroom, etc.

If there was no issue in preschool, it would be a red flag to me. It could easily be a teacher/environment issue or something more. teachers want kids medicated because its easier for them. Some kids do need medication but its concerning health wise at that young of an age.

I would put it back on her to see what changes she's willing to make to work with your son or she can request an evaluation through the school vs. private one.

If the teacher orders an eval, she may face professional consequences. There is no harm in an eval, and OP said this didn’t come out of the blue. The kinder teacher knows what’s normal in adjusting to K and what isn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my kid at 4.

It was the school. There was one bad teacher who yelled and couldn't manage behavior of other kids in the class. It turns out my child was terrified of the teacher and the wild kids, so they'd "check out" to cope. The "checking out" got my kid labeled as a concern by the teaching team and my kid sensed it.

We switched schools at 5 and the teachers have had nothing to say except that child is a normal, happy kid learning on pace. They have "best friends" at school, they are engaged in the classroom, etc.

If there was no issue in preschool, it would be a red flag to me. It could easily be a teacher/environment issue or something more. teachers want kids medicated because its easier for them. Some kids do need medication but its concerning health wise at that young of an age.

I would put it back on her to see what changes she's willing to make to work with your son or she can request an evaluation through the school vs. private one.

If the teacher orders an eval, she may face professional consequences. There is no harm in an eval, and OP said this didn’t come out of the blue. The kinder teacher knows what’s normal in adjusting to K and what isn’t.

Correct. And no, teachers don't want kids medicated because "it's easier for them". Teachers want kids medicated who need to be medicated. Teachers want kids to be successful, not struggling impossibly. Kids who aren't succeeding in K very rarely don't succeed because of the teacher. They don't succeed because their skill set is not developed enough for a typical K environment or there is a disability. Prek and K are VERY different and yes, kids who were amazing in a prek setting sometimes struggle. There is far less choice in K and more structure and some kids aren't yet able to handle the structure. And before someone comes at me saying, "well change the structure then", we often do, but we are not superhuman. There's a limit to what one teacher can do. Reality is that we do our best to meet everyone's needs, but in the end, we sometimes cannot meet the needs of kids who are extreme outliers.

[Anonymous]

I wish this was the "problem" I had in my kindergarten class. It sounds like your kid doesn't fit the mold and the teacher notices it. Did she actually suggest having him tested for ADHD because no public school teacher I know would do that. We can discuss behaviors and suggest a conversation with the pediatrician but that's it.

[Anonymous]

You said you’re going to pursue an eval with his pediatrician. I wouldn’t do that. I would get a full neuropsych eval as soon as you can and also ask school to evaluate him.

While you’re doing that, you could start OT if you think he has any sensory needs. Or speech if he has any speech needs. I have never found mental health therapy very helpful for a young child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We would greatly appreciate any advice you have, as we are at a loss right now. We do not live in the DC area, but I have read and learned a lot about parenting from this forum.

Our DS started Kindergarten less than two months ago. He has a January birthday, so he is neither the youngest nor the oldest in his class. Overall, he seems to like school. He doesn't talk about school much, but occasionally he brings up school-related topics. When we ask specific questions about school, he usually answers us.

We just had a parent-teacher conference today, and the teacher pointed out several behavioral concerns. He does not really interact with other kids, even if other kids invite him to play. He daydreams and does not pay attention to the teacher. He talks to himself and sings when he's not supposed to. Academically, he's doing really well, even in his public school GT class.

The teacher suggested we seek a psychological evaluation (e.g., ADHD). We will reach out to his pediatrician about this. His teacher's observation is somewhat surprising but not totally out of the blue. DS has always been a bit socially behind; he is also sensitive and a perfectionist, so I know it will take him longer to adjust to Kindergarten. He is an introvert, but he also enjoys playing with other kids. He sometimes plays with stranger kids at the playground, so the teacher's observation that he does not play with his classmates really concerns us. I'm worried that he might be experiencing anxiety, so he uses self-talk as a soothing mechanism, and he kind of shuts himself down, which explains the lack of interaction with other kids.

His preschool teachers never raised similar concerns. DS has several close friends from preschool whom he still plays with. He is engaged in extracurricular classes. In addition to a psychological evaluation (which will be a long wait), are there steps we can take to help him? Could he be experiencing anxiety? Would occupational therapy or any other therapy help? I'd love to hear your thoughts or experiences. TIA.

I am a teacher and parent of teen diagnosed with ADHD in elementary and Autism in middle school. The purpose of a neuropsych evaluation is to tease out what is going on whether it be anxiety, ADHD or autism (or a combination). Preschool teachers do not have the same education or experience as an elementary school teacher and so it isn’t surprising that they did not comment on your child’s behavior. Not only that, your child’s behavior may have fallen in the norm for preschool, but is now outside the norm for kindergarten. Teachers generally don’t recommend a neuropsych evaluation for borderline cases - she is very clearly seeing something she thinks needs further investigating. Your child may benefit from seeing a child therapist or psychologist. They can assess whether there is anxiety and provide their own thoughts at what may be going on.

May I also ask what are some characteristics of kids who were not diagnosed with ASD when they were younger but were subsequently diagnosed in elementary or middle schools? Our child is sensitive (gag reflex), has allergies, and sometimes impulsive. But he thrived in preschool and wanted to be with friends (requests playdates, does not want to go somewhere but if his friend is going he agrees to go, etc). He is usually easy and adapts well to new settings. He has travelled to many places, met relatives, our friends, etc., and in all these settings he seems to enjoy and was well behaved. He does not enjoy a big crowd, for example, when we took him to magic show he would observe but not as excited as other kids. I am just not sure whether some of these characteristics are just his personality (which is a lot like me and my husband) or could also indicate that he could be on the spectrum.

I am PP. As far as providers for neuropsychological evaluations there are many DCUM threads listing providers and “reviews.” People like KKI (Kennedy Krieger), Children’s Hospital, Dr. Black at CAAT, and Stixrud.

I would be happy to tell you about our experience with a teen late diagnosed with ASD, but I don’t think it will be helpful to you. It’s very hard to generalize with issues like this. Your son is so young and there is a lot of overlap between the way ADHD, anxiety, and ASD can present. My child is very typical of a high functioning, late diagnosed girl. If you read about autism, girls present very differently than boys and are diagnosed later.

She was very verbal (her verbal IQ is actually in the 99% making her 2E) and imaginative. She always had a lot friends and play dates until middle school when the social demands changed. She was a colicky baby that needed to be held all the time. But since then she has been a dream child. So easy, even as a teen. Never had tantrums and is easy going. Her ADHD manifests as forgetful and inattentive, so no behavioral or academic problems. She has a high IQ and compensated until high school, until the demands became too much. Looking back, the only “tip offs” to her autism when she was young was: her toe walking (which her pediatrician— with an autistic son—did not flag as a concern or indication of autism), her dislike of fruit (she will not eat any fruit even though she loved it as a toddler), and her deep interest in animals. She used to take out the same couple of animal books over and over from the library in kindergarten.

In my uneducated opinion, I have always assumed that boys with autism are caught earlier because they have more obvious and stereotypical autism symptoms, which your son doesn’t seem to have. You say your son doesn’t like large crowds - that could be due to anxiety or sensory overload from ADHD or autism. Or it could just be his personality. It’s just very hard to tease these things out especially at a young age. Don’t stress over feeling like you need to have a diagnosis immediately. These things take time. The good news is that his academics aren’t impacted and he isn’t showing anxiety/distress at home. You will be able to work on the school piece.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We would greatly appreciate any advice you have, as we are at a loss right now. We do not live in the DC area, but I have read and learned a lot about parenting from this forum.

Our DS started Kindergarten less than two months ago. He has a January birthday, so he is neither the youngest nor the oldest in his class. Overall, he seems to like school. He doesn't talk about school much, but occasionally he brings up school-related topics. When we ask specific questions about school, he usually answers us.

We just had a parent-teacher conference today, and the teacher pointed out several behavioral concerns. He does not really interact with other kids, even if other kids invite him to play. He daydreams and does not pay attention to the teacher. He talks to himself and sings when he's not supposed to. Academically, he's doing really well, even in his public school GT class.

The teacher suggested we seek a psychological evaluation (e.g., ADHD). We will reach out to his pediatrician about this. His teacher's observation is somewhat surprising but not totally out of the blue. DS has always been a bit socially behind; he is also sensitive and a perfectionist, so I know it will take him longer to adjust to Kindergarten. He is an introvert, but he also enjoys playing with other kids. He sometimes plays with stranger kids at the playground, so the teacher's observation that he does not play with his classmates really concerns us. I'm worried that he might be experiencing anxiety, so he uses self-talk as a soothing mechanism, and he kind of shuts himself down, which explains the lack of interaction with other kids.

His preschool teachers never raised similar concerns. DS has several close friends from preschool whom he still plays with. He is engaged in extracurricular classes. In addition to a psychological evaluation (which will be a long wait), are there steps we can take to help him? Could he be experiencing anxiety? Would occupational therapy or any other therapy help? I'd love to hear your thoughts or experiences. TIA.

I am a teacher and parent of teen diagnosed with ADHD in elementary and Autism in middle school. The purpose of a neuropsych evaluation is to tease out what is going on whether it be anxiety, ADHD or autism (or a combination). Preschool teachers do not have the same education or experience as an elementary school teacher and so it isn’t surprising that they did not comment on your child’s behavior. Not only that, your child’s behavior may have fallen in the norm for preschool, but is now outside the norm for kindergarten. Teachers generally don’t recommend a neuropsych evaluation for borderline cases - she is very clearly seeing something she thinks needs further investigating. Your child may benefit from seeing a child therapist or psychologist. They can assess whether there is anxiety and provide their own thoughts at what may be going on.

May I also ask what are some characteristics of kids who were not diagnosed with ASD when they were younger but were subsequently diagnosed in elementary or middle schools? Our child is sensitive (gag reflex), has allergies, and sometimes impulsive. But he thrived in preschool and wanted to be with friends (requests playdates, does not want to go somewhere but if his friend is going he agrees to go, etc). He is usually easy and adapts well to new settings. He has travelled to many places, met relatives, our friends, etc., and in all these settings he seems to enjoy and was well behaved. He does not enjoy a big crowd, for example, when we took him to magic show he would observe but not as excited as other kids. I am just not sure whether some of these characteristics are just his personality (which is a lot like me and my husband) or could also indicate that he could be on the spectrum.

I am PP. As far as providers for neuropsychological evaluations there are many DCUM threads listing providers and “reviews.” People like KKI (Kennedy Krieger), Children’s Hospital, Dr. Black at CAAT, and Stixrud.

I would be happy to tell you about our experience with a teen late diagnosed with ASD, but I don’t think it will be helpful to you. It’s very hard to generalize with issues like this. Your son is so young and there is a lot of overlap between the way ADHD, anxiety, and ASD can present. My child is very typical of a high functioning, late diagnosed girl. If you read about autism, girls present very differently than boys and are diagnosed later.

She was very verbal (her verbal IQ is actually in the 99% making her 2E) and imaginative. She always had a lot friends and play dates until middle school when the social demands changed. She was a colicky baby that needed to be held all the time. But since then she has been a dream child. So easy, even as a teen. Never had tantrums and is easy going. Her ADHD manifests as forgetful and inattentive, so no behavioral or academic problems. She has a high IQ and compensated until high school, until the demands became too much. Looking back, the only “tip offs” to her autism when she was young was: her toe walking (which her pediatrician— with an autistic son—did not flag as a concern or indication of autism), her dislike of fruit (she will not eat any fruit even though she loved it as a toddler), and her deep interest in animals. She used to take out the same couple of animal books over and over from the library in kindergarten.

In my uneducated opinion, I have always assumed that boys with autism are caught earlier because they have more obvious and stereotypical autism symptoms, which your son doesn’t seem to have. You say your son doesn’t like large crowds - that could be due to anxiety or sensory overload from ADHD or autism. Or it could just be his personality. It’s just very hard to tease these things out especially at a young age. Don’t stress over feeling like you need to have a diagnosis immediately. These things take time. The good news is that his academics aren’t impacted and he isn’t showing anxiety/distress at home. You will be able to work on the school piece.

Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate it. We've scheduled a neuropsychological evaluation in our area and we look forward to learning more about him.

Our boy has certain traits that I’ve noticed over the years, but I’m not sure whether they reflect his personality, his being a young boy, or potential neurodiversity. There aren’t any obvious red flags. But sometimes, I feel that something may not be quite right. For example, when asked a question he doesn’t know the answer to, he often stays silent instead of saying "What?" or "I don’t know." Some of these traits seem to come and go. We’ve never considered doing anything beyond good parenting because he seems happy, and we haven’t heard any concerns from his teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve never heard of a public school having a gifted class for kindergartners never mind over 20 kids in the class.
Are they reading chapter books and writing book reports? Math for 4th graders?

Maybe he would be better off in a class where social skills are most important. Plus I don’t think you should rely on how well he did in preschool. He’s having difficulties now. The experts can give you advice on what to do.

Me neither. Publics cannot afford to administer a real IQ test to every pre-K child whose parents request it, because it would have to be done orally and one-on-one at that age. Maybe the kids in the class are not technically gifted, just determined to be academically advanced. It would make sense for a public school to put all the kids who are already reading in one class so the teacher did not have to contend with a huge range of abilities.

I’ve never even heard of separating kindergarten students for academic advancement because they don’t have any academic achievement to show. I can see urban areas having programs targeting students from low income areas that are showing great potential.

In my area that is quite common. There are GT only public magnet elementary schools. In neighborhood schools, there can also be GT only classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my kid at 4.

It was the school. There was one bad teacher who yelled and couldn't manage behavior of other kids in the class. It turns out my child was terrified of the teacher and the wild kids, so they'd "check out" to cope. The "checking out" got my kid labeled as a concern by the teaching team and my kid sensed it.

We switched schools at 5 and the teachers have had nothing to say except that child is a normal, happy kid learning on pace. They have "best friends" at school, they are engaged in the classroom, etc.

+1. We naively fell for "concerns" like this that our K teacher raised about our kid. They swore up and down that it was a great classroom, and that they couldn't figure out what was going on with our kid. At some point, they even told us that our kid came to school angry at us, which was news to us because he was always happy when we dropped him off. Over time, we were able to learn from other parents and from some things we witnessed at pick-up that there were some significant issues in the classroom that were basically left unchecked. Additionally, the "teacher" basically adopted a view that kids need to work there own issues out, so seemed to us that the teacher probably wasn't doing a great job managing the classroom in a way that made everyone feel comfortable and safe. We also realized that the only place our kid had these "issues" was at school. I had to get pretty direct with them, and basically confronted them about what was going on. They continued to deny things to my face but then backed off real quick.

I still burn with anger thinking about it.

I’m the poster you quoted and I both feel terrible for what you went through and relieved and validated that we weren’t the only ones who experienced this.

The school kept calling me in for meetings *with my child present* and the teachers. And I just couldn’t understand because the child they were describing wasn’t the child we knew, that our babysitter knew, that prior teachers knew… but they were insistent something was wrong with my child. And of course this created a terrible shame spiral for my kid. (who was only 4!)

I started exchanging notes with other parents and it turns out multiple families were being called in for “concerns about your child” meetings. We pieced together the classroom dynamic. We confronted the school and eventually they admitted the problem and the teacher was fired.

I also burn with anger thinking about it and how they shamed my kid to hide their bad hiring decision. But even more so now that I see how happy and engaged my child is in the new school.

No one should ignore concerns about their kid of course. But at 4/5/6 years old if the concern feels wildly out of character versus previous classroom environments, playground, home, etc, it’s worth getting a full picture of what’s happening at school and not just speeding toward evaluation.

Many thanks to both of you.

We haven't exchanged notes with other parents yet, because we want to reach out to the teacher and professionals to learn more about the root of these struggles. Some parents have older children who were in the same class and they say really good things about the teacher. One other parent mentioned that the teacher does not like kids from Montessori preschools because they sometimes just want to do their own things and not completing class work.

I spoke with an experienced educator some time ago, and she mentioned that there is a school for every kid, and for any kid, there is no best school, but there is a best fit school. We attend a "best" school, now we are less sure about this decision.

It sounds like the expectations for their Montessori preschool were different. Maybe the teacher is observing that your child is having difficulty with transitions and is wanting to do their own thing instead of staying engaged with the current lesson and this seems to her like inattention or hyperfocusing, which would be consistent with ADD. The challenge with having a class of 22 or 24 children is that if one or two kids are doing their own thing and having difficulty with transitions it can be very distracting to the other children and undermine the teacher's ability to control the classroom. Because this is a GT program the teacher is probably going at a faster pace than a regular classroom and/or teaching in more depth and there is likely an expectation that children can meet this pace intellectually and socio-emotionally. If this environment isn't working for your son the teacher may be concerned about his ability to absorb the information being taught and may think that a certain amount of support might help him do that.

I think these are good points, OP.

My own DD who was diagnosed ASD/ADD and who is also gifted would have been able to relay those details re: classmates from things like sharing during circle time. She was able to mask better when younger and more easily in situations where she had more control. Anxiety is also common in kids with that profile.

The dynamic you describe with classmates is very concerning. I'd add an OT eval to your list and have an OT or SLP do a classroom observation or 2. The other kids could be picking up on how the teacher is reacting to him or on how he reacts to peers or a combo.

Some of what you are attributing to personality may be that or may be sensory processing or in my child's case, slower processing speed. The neuropsych will help, hopefully. Ours gave some clues when early elementary age, more when repeated at an older age. Best of luck with yours, data from a SLP re: social pragmatics and an OT will help inform results.

[Anonymous]

I had a similar situation last year with a teacher in PK4..I went to her previous school and pediatrician and they suggested a change of classroom. That school reported seeing a different child that was attentive and engaging. Then the rumors started coming out that other parents were having issues with this teachers “lazy” way of interacting with kids in this age group.

My daughter is now in kindergarten and thriving.

[Anonymous]

I am a former teacher, and also a parent of a child who had a similar experience in Kindergarten. I am still bitter about it. If a child is doing well academically, and is not unhappy or causing behavioral disturbances in the classroom, then a teacher is way out of line in suggesting a psychological evaluation. First, I want to make sure you understand that contrary to popular opinion, most K teachers have zero qualifications to evaluate anything other than a child's reading ability. They have no training in child psychology, medicine, or counseling. Many are some of the most uneducated and inexperienced people I have ever met. In some cases, you may be dealing with someone right out of college who knows less about children's behavior than you do. So keep in mind that any advice you take from a teacher is about as reliable as advice from the cashier in a checkout line. So unless the teacher is giving you concrete behaviors that are really concerning, or which disrupt the entire class or something similar, this teacher is just spouting a random opinion on your child.

And based on what you've written, none of that is unusual. Could your child have some kind of disability or something? Sure. Is it worth going through all kinds of evaluations and then putting them on drugs that will stunt their growth and make them feel weird? You be the judge.

My child was described as "weird" by his K teacher, and she cited similar random things, but when I went through all the evaluations (worst time in my entire life) and eventually had several observations of him in the school setting, the conclusion by the experts was unanimous - he had a crappy teacher who didn't know jack about the behavior of 5 year olds. He went on to do just fine, and we never had another teacher complain about his little quirks, in that school or the others he's been to since. He is still an anxious kid, a perfectionist, and a bit neurotic, but well within the norm for a human being.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If he is doing well academically, I’m not sure why they are suggestion an eval for ADHD. I would ask what supports and interventions they are trying, and ask if there are small counseling groups that could provide more structured, small group social opportunities. It’s only a few months into the first official school year of his life, and there’s a lot of newness. If they were reporting academic concerns I would say sure, seek the evaluation, but it seems like they need to be clearer about their concerns and what they are doing to attend to them.

Thank you! yes we are reaching out to psychologists, the topic of ADHD/ASD will be brought up. But currently our mindset is more about understanding the cause and seeking play/group/family therapies that can help him.
There are no concerns about academics, he has learned so much since starting Kinder. BOY MAP math 99% and reading at 2 grade level. He also reads to the class.

OP, teacher here, it's insane that the teacher would suggest you do anything at all with a kid with those academic stats. I would suggest the problem is the teacher.