5-year-old behavior issues in Kindergarten - what should we do?

[Anonymous]

If he is doing well academically, I’m not sure why they are suggestion an eval for ADHD. I would ask what supports and interventions they are trying, and ask if there are small counseling groups that could provide more structured, small group social opportunities. It’s only a few months into the first official school year of his life, and there’s a lot of newness. If they were reporting academic concerns I would say sure, seek the evaluation, but it seems like they need to be clearer about their concerns and what they are doing to attend to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my kid at 4.

It was the school. There was one bad teacher who yelled and couldn't manage behavior of other kids in the class. It turns out my child was terrified of the teacher and the wild kids, so they'd "check out" to cope. The "checking out" got my kid labeled as a concern by the teaching team and my kid sensed it.

We switched schools at 5 and the teachers have had nothing to say except that child is a normal, happy kid learning on pace. They have "best friends" at school, they are engaged in the classroom, etc.

+1. We naively fell for "concerns" like this that our K teacher raised about our kid. They swore up and down that it was a great classroom, and that they couldn't figure out what was going on with our kid. At some point, they even told us that our kid came to school angry at us, which was news to us because he was always happy when we dropped him off. Over time, we were able to learn from other parents and from some things we witnessed at pick-up that there were some significant issues in the classroom that were basically left unchecked. Additionally, the "teacher" basically adopted a view that kids need to work there own issues out, so seemed to us that the teacher probably wasn't doing a great job managing the classroom in a way that made everyone feel comfortable and safe. We also realized that the only place our kid had these "issues" was at school. I had to get pretty direct with them, and basically confronted them about what was going on. They continued to deny things to my face but then backed off real quick.

I still burn with anger thinking about it.

I’m the poster you quoted and I both feel terrible for what you went through and relieved and validated that we weren’t the only ones who experienced this.

The school kept calling me in for meetings *with my child present* and the teachers. And I just couldn’t understand because the child they were describing wasn’t the child we knew, that our babysitter knew, that prior teachers knew… but they were insistent something was wrong with my child. And of course this created a terrible shame spiral for my kid. (who was only 4!)

I started exchanging notes with other parents and it turns out multiple families were being called in for “concerns about your child” meetings. We pieced together the classroom dynamic. We confronted the school and eventually they admitted the problem and the teacher was fired.

I also burn with anger thinking about it and how they shamed my kid to hide their bad hiring decision. But even more so now that I see how happy and engaged my child is in the new school.

No one should ignore concerns about their kid of course. But at 4/5/6 years old if the concern feels wildly out of character versus previous classroom environments, playground, home, etc, it’s worth getting a full picture of what’s happening at school and not just speeding toward evaluation.

[Anonymous]

OP here.

Thanks for all your comments.

My husband and I spent a lot of time talking about this yesterday. We don't deny anything the teacher has observed. But we also are concerned about the classroom dynamic. It's a highly coveted public school - and the classroom is GT kids only. So I'm sure that the teacher has much higher expectation for the kids. This is also a large class (22-24 kids). Based on our limited observation of his interaction with his current class, at the beginning (one month ago) he seemed to blend in, playing and doing silly things with boys etc. But at the recent birthday parties, he seemed less comfortable around his classmates. For example, there are three tables at a boys party, and he will find his spot at a new empty table.

There is also this one kid who constantly makes faces at him, and there is another kid complained to us that our kid is not listening in class and is annoying, and also asked us that whether we are giving XX (our kid) a time-out. So at some point in the recent month, the class dynamic has changed. I'm not denying what the teacher has observed, and the change in class dynamic could be due to our kid's behavior. But I'm also not sure how the teacher handles his behavior in class. Was he called out and shamed in front of the class etc.

Our preschool teacher has not raised concerns about his social behavior. Preschool teacher did mention him being inattentive sometimes and the teacher's observation was that he might be bored. But at preschool he is also the kid who shows up on school social media interacting with the teacher etc, he played well with his preschool classmates. He told us things like his classmates' vacation plans, older siblings etc, etc. Things you wouldn't know unless you carried conversations with other kids. He also attended a winter camp last year and enjoyed it from day one.

We'll talk with the teacher more, and we've reached out to pediatric psychologists. What also concerned us (which we did not realize earlier) was that the teacher simply pointed out all the bad behaviors without even trying to dig deeper into the cause, or asking us about his behavior in other settings. We are definitely not ignoring the teacher's concerns. Our kid has always loved school, so hearing that he’s not thriving to his fullest potential breaks our hearts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my kid at 4.

It was the school. There was one bad teacher who yelled and couldn't manage behavior of other kids in the class. It turns out my child was terrified of the teacher and the wild kids, so they'd "check out" to cope. The "checking out" got my kid labeled as a concern by the teaching team and my kid sensed it.

We switched schools at 5 and the teachers have had nothing to say except that child is a normal, happy kid learning on pace. They have "best friends" at school, they are engaged in the classroom, etc.

+1. We naively fell for "concerns" like this that our K teacher raised about our kid. They swore up and down that it was a great classroom, and that they couldn't figure out what was going on with our kid. At some point, they even told us that our kid came to school angry at us, which was news to us because he was always happy when we dropped him off. Over time, we were able to learn from other parents and from some things we witnessed at pick-up that there were some significant issues in the classroom that were basically left unchecked. Additionally, the "teacher" basically adopted a view that kids need to work there own issues out, so seemed to us that the teacher probably wasn't doing a great job managing the classroom in a way that made everyone feel comfortable and safe. We also realized that the only place our kid had these "issues" was at school. I had to get pretty direct with them, and basically confronted them about what was going on. They continued to deny things to my face but then backed off real quick.

I still burn with anger thinking about it.

I’m the poster you quoted and I both feel terrible for what you went through and relieved and validated that we weren’t the only ones who experienced this.

The school kept calling me in for meetings *with my child present* and the teachers. And I just couldn’t understand because the child they were describing wasn’t the child we knew, that our babysitter knew, that prior teachers knew… but they were insistent something was wrong with my child. And of course this created a terrible shame spiral for my kid. (who was only 4!)

I started exchanging notes with other parents and it turns out multiple families were being called in for “concerns about your child” meetings. We pieced together the classroom dynamic. We confronted the school and eventually they admitted the problem and the teacher was fired.

I also burn with anger thinking about it and how they shamed my kid to hide their bad hiring decision. But even more so now that I see how happy and engaged my child is in the new school.

No one should ignore concerns about their kid of course. But at 4/5/6 years old if the concern feels wildly out of character versus previous classroom environments, playground, home, etc, it’s worth getting a full picture of what’s happening at school and not just speeding toward evaluation.

Many thanks to both of you.

We haven't exchanged notes with other parents yet, because we want to reach out to the teacher and professionals to learn more about the root of these struggles. Some parents have older children who were in the same class and they say really good things about the teacher. One other parent mentioned that the teacher does not like kids from Montessori preschools because they sometimes just want to do their own things and not completing class work.

I spoke with an experienced educator some time ago, and she mentioned that there is a school for every kid, and for any kid, there is no best school, but there is a best fit school. We attend a "best" school, now we are less sure about this decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If he is doing well academically, I’m not sure why they are suggestion an eval for ADHD. I would ask what supports and interventions they are trying, and ask if there are small counseling groups that could provide more structured, small group social opportunities. It’s only a few months into the first official school year of his life, and there’s a lot of newness. If they were reporting academic concerns I would say sure, seek the evaluation, but it seems like they need to be clearer about their concerns and what they are doing to attend to them.

Thank you! yes we are reaching out to psychologists, the topic of ADHD/ASD will be brought up. But currently our mindset is more about understanding the cause and seeking play/group/family therapies that can help him.
There are no concerns about academics, he has learned so much since starting Kinder. BOY MAP math 99% and reading at 2 grade level. He also reads to the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We would greatly appreciate any advice you have, as we are at a loss right now. We do not live in the DC area, but I have read and learned a lot about parenting from this forum.

Our DS started Kindergarten less than two months ago. He has a January birthday, so he is neither the youngest nor the oldest in his class. Overall, he seems to like school. He doesn't talk about school much, but occasionally he brings up school-related topics. When we ask specific questions about school, he usually answers us.

We just had a parent-teacher conference today, and the teacher pointed out several behavioral concerns. He does not really interact with other kids, even if other kids invite him to play. He daydreams and does not pay attention to the teacher. He talks to himself and sings when he's not supposed to. Academically, he's doing really well, even in his public school GT class.

The teacher suggested we seek a psychological evaluation (e.g., ADHD). We will reach out to his pediatrician about this. His teacher's observation is somewhat surprising but not totally out of the blue. DS has always been a bit socially behind; he is also sensitive and a perfectionist, so I know it will take him longer to adjust to Kindergarten. He is an introvert, but he also enjoys playing with other kids. He sometimes plays with stranger kids at the playground, so the teacher's observation that he does not play with his classmates really concerns us. I'm worried that he might be experiencing anxiety, so he uses self-talk as a soothing mechanism, and he kind of shuts himself down, which explains the lack of interaction with other kids.

His preschool teachers never raised similar concerns. DS has several close friends from preschool whom he still plays with. He is engaged in extracurricular classes. In addition to a psychological evaluation (which will be a long wait), are there steps we can take to help him? Could he be experiencing anxiety? Would occupational therapy or any other therapy help? I'd love to hear your thoughts or experiences. TIA.

I am a teacher and parent of teen diagnosed with ADHD in elementary and Autism in middle school. The purpose of a neuropsych evaluation is to tease out what is going on whether it be anxiety, ADHD or autism (or a combination). Preschool teachers do not have the same education or experience as an elementary school teacher and so it isn’t surprising that they did not comment on your child’s behavior. Not only that, your child’s behavior may have fallen in the norm for preschool, but is now outside the norm for kindergarten. Teachers generally don’t recommend a neuropsych evaluation for borderline cases - she is very clearly seeing something she thinks needs further investigating. Your child may benefit from seeing a child therapist or psychologist. They can assess whether there is anxiety and provide their own thoughts at what may be going on.

Do you have any recommendation for professionals who can provide a comprehensive evaluation of this? would a psychologist be our best choice, in terms of assessing whether it's ASD/ADHD/anxiety, or some other delay?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We would greatly appreciate any advice you have, as we are at a loss right now. We do not live in the DC area, but I have read and learned a lot about parenting from this forum.

Our DS started Kindergarten less than two months ago. He has a January birthday, so he is neither the youngest nor the oldest in his class. Overall, he seems to like school. He doesn't talk about school much, but occasionally he brings up school-related topics. When we ask specific questions about school, he usually answers us.

We just had a parent-teacher conference today, and the teacher pointed out several behavioral concerns. He does not really interact with other kids, even if other kids invite him to play. He daydreams and does not pay attention to the teacher. He talks to himself and sings when he's not supposed to. Academically, he's doing really well, even in his public school GT class.

The teacher suggested we seek a psychological evaluation (e.g., ADHD). We will reach out to his pediatrician about this. His teacher's observation is somewhat surprising but not totally out of the blue. DS has always been a bit socially behind; he is also sensitive and a perfectionist, so I know it will take him longer to adjust to Kindergarten. He is an introvert, but he also enjoys playing with other kids. He sometimes plays with stranger kids at the playground, so the teacher's observation that he does not play with his classmates really concerns us. I'm worried that he might be experiencing anxiety, so he uses self-talk as a soothing mechanism, and he kind of shuts himself down, which explains the lack of interaction with other kids.

His preschool teachers never raised similar concerns. DS has several close friends from preschool whom he still plays with. He is engaged in extracurricular classes. In addition to a psychological evaluation (which will be a long wait), are there steps we can take to help him? Could he be experiencing anxiety? Would occupational therapy or any other therapy help? I'd love to hear your thoughts or experiences. TIA.

I am a teacher and parent of teen diagnosed with ADHD in elementary and Autism in middle school. The purpose of a neuropsych evaluation is to tease out what is going on whether it be anxiety, ADHD or autism (or a combination). Preschool teachers do not have the same education or experience as an elementary school teacher and so it isn’t surprising that they did not comment on your child’s behavior. Not only that, your child’s behavior may have fallen in the norm for preschool, but is now outside the norm for kindergarten. Teachers generally don’t recommend a neuropsych evaluation for borderline cases - she is very clearly seeing something she thinks needs further investigating. Your child may benefit from seeing a child therapist or psychologist. They can assess whether there is anxiety and provide their own thoughts at what may be going on.

May I also ask what are some characteristics of kids who were not diagnosed with ASD when they were younger but were subsequently diagnosed in elementary or middle schools? Our child is sensitive (gag reflex), has allergies, and sometimes impulsive. But he thrived in preschool and wanted to be with friends (requests playdates, does not want to go somewhere but if his friend is going he agrees to go, etc). He is usually easy and adapts well to new settings. He has travelled to many places, met relatives, our friends, etc., and in all these settings he seems to enjoy and was well behaved. He does not enjoy a big crowd, for example, when we took him to magic show he would observe but not as excited as other kids. I am just not sure whether some of these characteristics are just his personality (which is a lot like me and my husband) or could also indicate that he could be on the spectrum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my kid at 4.

It was the school. There was one bad teacher who yelled and couldn't manage behavior of other kids in the class. It turns out my child was terrified of the teacher and the wild kids, so they'd "check out" to cope. The "checking out" got my kid labeled as a concern by the teaching team and my kid sensed it.

We switched schools at 5 and the teachers have had nothing to say except that child is a normal, happy kid learning on pace. They have "best friends" at school, they are engaged in the classroom, etc.

+1. We naively fell for "concerns" like this that our K teacher raised about our kid. They swore up and down that it was a great classroom, and that they couldn't figure out what was going on with our kid. At some point, they even told us that our kid came to school angry at us, which was news to us because he was always happy when we dropped him off. Over time, we were able to learn from other parents and from some things we witnessed at pick-up that there were some significant issues in the classroom that were basically left unchecked. Additionally, the "teacher" basically adopted a view that kids need to work there own issues out, so seemed to us that the teacher probably wasn't doing a great job managing the classroom in a way that made everyone feel comfortable and safe. We also realized that the only place our kid had these "issues" was at school. I had to get pretty direct with them, and basically confronted them about what was going on. They continued to deny things to my face but then backed off real quick.

I still burn with anger thinking about it.

I’m the poster you quoted and I both feel terrible for what you went through and relieved and validated that we weren’t the only ones who experienced this.

The school kept calling me in for meetings *with my child present* and the teachers. And I just couldn’t understand because the child they were describing wasn’t the child we knew, that our babysitter knew, that prior teachers knew… but they were insistent something was wrong with my child. And of course this created a terrible shame spiral for my kid. (who was only 4!)

I started exchanging notes with other parents and it turns out multiple families were being called in for “concerns about your child” meetings. We pieced together the classroom dynamic. We confronted the school and eventually they admitted the problem and the teacher was fired.

I also burn with anger thinking about it and how they shamed my kid to hide their bad hiring decision. But even more so now that I see how happy and engaged my child is in the new school.

No one should ignore concerns about their kid of course. But at 4/5/6 years old if the concern feels wildly out of character versus previous classroom environments, playground, home, etc, it’s worth getting a full picture of what’s happening at school and not just speeding toward evaluation.

Many thanks to both of you.

We haven't exchanged notes with other parents yet, because we want to reach out to the teacher and professionals to learn more about the root of these struggles. Some parents have older children who were in the same class and they say really good things about the teacher. One other parent mentioned that the teacher does not like kids from Montessori preschools because they sometimes just want to do their own things and not completing class work.

I spoke with an experienced educator some time ago, and she mentioned that there is a school for every kid, and for any kid, there is no best school, but there is a best fit school. We attend a "best" school, now we are less sure about this decision.

It sounds like the expectations for their Montessori preschool were different. Maybe the teacher is observing that your child is having difficulty with transitions and is wanting to do their own thing instead of staying engaged with the current lesson and this seems to her like inattention or hyperfocusing, which would be consistent with ADD. The challenge with having a class of 22 or 24 children is that if one or two kids are doing their own thing and having difficulty with transitions it can be very distracting to the other children and undermine the teacher's ability to control the classroom. Because this is a GT program the teacher is probably going at a faster pace than a regular classroom and/or teaching in more depth and there is likely an expectation that children can meet this pace intellectually and socio-emotionally. If this environment isn't working for your son the teacher may be concerned about his ability to absorb the information being taught and may think that a certain amount of support might help him do that.

[Anonymous]

There are multiple options. Comparing notes with other parents can be helpful to understand if there is something in the learning environment that is troubling to your son but he doesn’t want to talk about or doesn’t know how to articulate. For example, in kindergarten my son could be disruptive and to help the situation he would have his own desk while everyone else was 4 to a table. That was psychologically damaging and we were not aware of this until our first IEP meeting where our advocate insisted this stop. A private OT eval can help determine if your son has a sensory processing disorder or something else. Social skills groups and play therapy are also great - but based on what you wrote, it doesn’t sound like your son struggles with this outside of school. A neuropsych eval would be warranted to screen for ADHD, anxiety, ASD, etc. to get a diagnosis. Or a hearing screen (which they should do in kindergarten anyway).

You could start the evaluation process for an IEP or 504 with your public school. You will want to read up on what your state and school district needs for this. And you will want to read a lot on this topic to advocate for your son. Typically, a request in writing is needed to start the process. Even though your son is doing well academically, if there are behavioral issues, the school can screen for those that may impede his access to learning and the educational curriculum as part of this eval process. And they can set goals in an IEP for listening, transitions, etc. Note that schools are not required to use any private evals completed when looking at special education services. They can and should but don’t have to. If you go down the IEP path, having an advocate who knows the law in the room with you during meetings is a huge help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every kindergarten kid would show *some* signs of ADHD. The question is, are your child's symptoms interfering with their ability learn? Are their behaviors interfering with the teacher teaching the class? If no to both, keep an eye on it, and maybe test in the future if you feel it's necessary, but 5 is way too young for an ADHD diagnosis

That’s not true, every kindergartner wouldn’t show some signs of ADHD. A lot of kids at that age can control themselves physically, can follow rules, can focus on tasks, can listen to teacher.

I would think “zoning out” would interfere with a child’s learning. Not interacting with peers would also be a problem.

[Anonymous]

I’ve never heard of a public school having a gifted class for kindergartners never mind over 20 kids in the class.
Are they reading chapter books and writing book reports? Math for 4th graders?

Maybe he would be better off in a class where social skills are most important. Plus I don’t think you should rely on how well he did in preschool. He’s having difficulties now. The experts can give you advice on what to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve never heard of a public school having a gifted class for kindergartners never mind over 20 kids in the class.
Are they reading chapter books and writing book reports? Math for 4th graders?

Maybe he would be better off in a class where social skills are most important. Plus I don’t think you should rely on how well he did in preschool. He’s having difficulties now. The experts can give you advice on what to do.

Me neither. Publics cannot afford to administer a real IQ test to every pre-K child whose parents request it, because it would have to be done orally and one-on-one at that age. Maybe the kids in the class are not technically gifted, just determined to be academically advanced. It would make sense for a public school to put all the kids who are already reading in one class so the teacher did not have to contend with a huge range of abilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve never heard of a public school having a gifted class for kindergartners never mind over 20 kids in the class.
Are they reading chapter books and writing book reports? Math for 4th graders?

Maybe he would be better off in a class where social skills are most important. Plus I don’t think you should rely on how well he did in preschool. He’s having difficulties now. The experts can give you advice on what to do.

Me neither. Publics cannot afford to administer a real IQ test to every pre-K child whose parents request it, because it would have to be done orally and one-on-one at that age. Maybe the kids in the class are not technically gifted, just determined to be academically advanced. It would make sense for a public school to put all the kids who are already reading in one class so the teacher did not have to contend with a huge range of abilities.

Some cities do offer what they call gifted programming starting in K. Chicago is one of them, I'm sure there are others. It's generally understood to merely be accelerated learning, not real gifted learning. But back to the OP. I believe you said your child was in a Montessori preschool. Montessori generally allows the child to determine what and how they work/play throughout the day. A typical gen Ed structured kindergarten would require a lot of rule and procedure following. My guess is here is where the disconnect it. It could be that your child is fine when they get to make most or all of the choices, but struggle when someone else is doing that. I highly recommend getting on the list for a neuropsych appt. You can always cancel it later if you need to. I'd also request the school to do an evaluation. It will at least start the process, which can take 1-2 years. I wish you and the school good luck. The issues you describe (not paying attention, humming) don't seem hard to deal with on the school's end. I'm going to go on and guess that the teacher suspects autism, which right now might not be a big deal, but could be down the line. Of course, she may be wrong but what does it hurt to look into it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve never heard of a public school having a gifted class for kindergartners never mind over 20 kids in the class.
Are they reading chapter books and writing book reports? Math for 4th graders?

Maybe he would be better off in a class where social skills are most important. Plus I don’t think you should rely on how well he did in preschool. He’s having difficulties now. The experts can give you advice on what to do.

Me neither. Publics cannot afford to administer a real IQ test to every pre-K child whose parents request it, because it would have to be done orally and one-on-one at that age. Maybe the kids in the class are not technically gifted, just determined to be academically advanced. It would make sense for a public school to put all the kids who are already reading in one class so the teacher did not have to contend with a huge range of abilities.

I’ve never even heard of separating kindergarten students for academic advancement because they don’t have any academic achievement to show. I can see urban areas having programs targeting students from low income areas that are showing great potential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve never heard of a public school having a gifted class for kindergartners never mind over 20 kids in the class.
Are they reading chapter books and writing book reports? Math for 4th graders?

Maybe he would be better off in a class where social skills are most important. Plus I don’t think you should rely on how well he did in preschool. He’s having difficulties now. The experts can give you advice on what to do.

Me neither. Publics cannot afford to administer a real IQ test to every pre-K child whose parents request it, because it would have to be done orally and one-on-one at that age. Maybe the kids in the class are not technically gifted, just determined to be academically advanced. It would make sense for a public school to put all the kids who are already reading in one class so the teacher did not have to contend with a huge range of abilities.

I’ve never even heard of separating kindergarten students for academic advancement because they don’t have any academic achievement to show. I can see urban areas having programs targeting students from low income areas that are showing great potential.

Perhaps some type of kindergarten readiness testing administered by the preK attached to the elementary school. Or testing reading levels at the start of K and then assigning teachers after the results are ready. None of my kids ever got such a bespoke kinder experience, sounds luxurious.