Pre-calc does not prepare kids for calculus!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I truly do not understand why people on this board react with nastiness and hostility when someone merely poses a request for clarification and insight from others with more or different experiences.

OP: Perhaps the teacher was speaking shorthand or perhaps she was just describing her observations of students' paths in the past. Of course grade level pre-calc leads to calc, at least in my kids' HS -- it's just that it leads to Calc with Applications, a non-AP class, not AP Calc. I suppose there's a chance your HS doesn't offer Calc with Applications. My suggestion is to try to find your school's registration card and see what is typically offered, and then consider whether there is a reason to prefer that she be in a position to take AP Calc AB rather than that, non-AP class. And reach out to your kid's counselor if you need further clarification.

BTW, at our HS at least, I've never heard of anyone refer to Calculus 1 -- it's either Calc with Applications or AP Calc (AB or BC).

The bolded isn't what happened. OP doesn't want "clarification" she wants to rant and rave. She deserves everything she got.

The rant is justified. The system is byzantine and mistakes have very significant consequences that are hard to rectify.

[Anonymous]

Honors is advanced, AP is more advanced and in preparation for the AP exam. But you do not have to take the AP exam. But MCPS pays for it, so why not. There is nothing to lose.

Pre-Calculus does prepare a student for Calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was at BTSN tonight and learned that students who take on grade level pre-calculus (so not honors) will not be prepared to take Calculus AB the next year. This greatly concerns me. I understood that dropping out of the honors track wouldn't prepare my child for BC, but I thought it would prepare her for AB.

All of her friends scared her and told her that honors would be so much work so she dropped down, but now I am really upset for letting her. How is it that this course was not designed to prepare students? SHould I force her back in the honors track even though she doesn't want to (her math is strong, but she does not "like" it)? I'm a very upset parent tonight!

Why is no one surprised that communication is subpar in guiding students and families to the various options students have in math and in other areas. Sigh.

I don't think anyone is doubting that. We're new to MoCo and had we not had kind neighbors with kids who had been through the system, we would have been absolutely lost (we're still semi-lost). It's hard to decipher the various courses with nebulous titles like Math AMP6+ and Advanced English (which is not particularly advanced), and the links to the descriptions of the classes are missing or listed as "coming soon" from the MCPS.

But the general message to the OP, is that she could still switch her kid if she wants. It's so early in the school year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was at BTSN tonight and learned that students who take on grade level pre-calculus (so not honors) will not be prepared to take Calculus AB the next year. This greatly concerns me. I understood that dropping out of the honors track wouldn't prepare my child for BC, but I thought it would prepare her for AB.

All of her friends scared her and told her that honors would be so much work so she dropped down, but now I am really upset for letting her. How is it that this course was not designed to prepare students? SHould I force her back in the honors track even though she doesn't want to (her math is strong, but she does not "like" it)? I'm a very upset parent tonight!

Why is no one surprised that communication is subpar in guiding students and families to the various options students have in math and in other areas. Sigh.

Communication was clear, but OP and her daughter preferred the counsel of her dumb friends and now they've created a problem for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How can you not understand that a regular math course will never lead to an AP math course?

Languages are Honors level before the AP level.
Honors Chem is taken before AP Chem.
To get to AP World History, the track is AP Gov and AP US History.

You cannot be mad if you didn't do your due diligence, OP.

English is like that, but foreign languages don't have a non-honors option. They just arbitrarily give the quality point to years 3+.

[Anonymous]

OP can't even report the information correctly in the title. There's an education problem here, but it's OP's education not her daughter's school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So are kids who take grade level pre-calc not prepared to take calculus 1 in college?

No, they would usually either take college level precacl, if they took grade level precalc in senior year, or take calculus with applications in their senior year, and then calc 1 in college.

Most colleges have placement testing, so it's possible that a bright kid would be able to close the gap and place into calc 1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I truly do not understand why people on this board react with nastiness and hostility when someone merely poses a request for clarification and insight from others with more or different experiences.

OP: Perhaps the teacher was speaking shorthand or perhaps she was just describing her observations of students' paths in the past. Of course grade level pre-calc leads to calc, at least in my kids' HS -- it's just that it leads to Calc with Applications, a non-AP class, not AP Calc. I suppose there's a chance your HS doesn't offer Calc with Applications. My suggestion is to try to find your school's registration card and see what is typically offered, and then consider whether there is a reason to prefer that she be in a position to take AP Calc AB rather than that, non-AP class. And reach out to your kid's counselor if you need further clarification.

BTW, at our HS at least, I've never heard of anyone refer to Calculus 1 -- it's either Calc with Applications or AP Calc (AB or BC).

Calc 1 is AB Calc. And the fact that everyone in this thread is not in agreement with OP is crazy. Calculus with Applications at the college level is meant for students whose majors do not required they go beyond Calc 1 and thus doesn’t necessarily go as deep in preparation for Calc 2. It has nothing to do with the fact that Pre-Cal should absolutely prepare a student to be ready to take on Calculus 1.

Yes to bolded, and non-honors precalc is for students on that pathway.

Calc AB and Calc with Applications are both Calc 1. What else would they be?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So are kids who take grade level pre-calc not prepared to take calculus 1 in college?

No, they would usually either take college level precacl, if they took grade level precalc in senior year, or take calculus with applications in their senior year, and then calc 1 in college.

Most colleges have placement testing, so it's possible that a bright kid would be able to close the gap and place into calc 1.

Huh?

Non-honors HS precal is college level precal. That's why College Board added AP Precal.

College precal is for students who finished with Algebra 2 senior year.

(Of course, also, anyone can retake a high school class in college if they feel the need. AP calc grads often do.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was at BTSN tonight and learned that students who take on grade level pre-calculus (so not honors) will not be prepared to take Calculus AB the next year. This greatly concerns me. I understood that dropping out of the honors track wouldn't prepare my child for BC, but I thought it would prepare her for AB.

All of her friends scared her and told her that honors would be so much work so she dropped down, but now I am really upset for letting her. How is it that this course was not designed to prepare students? SHould I force her back in the honors track even though she doesn't want to (her math is strong, but she does not "like" it)? I'm a very upset parent tonight!

Why is no one surprised that communication is subpar in guiding students and families to the various options students have in math and in other areas. Sigh.

I don't think anyone is doubting that. We're new to MoCo and had we not had kind neighbors with kids who had been through the system, we would have been absolutely lost (we're still semi-lost). It's hard to decipher the various courses with nebulous titles like Math AMP6+ and Advanced English (which is not particularly advanced), and the links to the descriptions of the classes are missing or listed as "coming soon" from the MCPS.

But the general message to the OP, is that she could still switch her kid if she wants. It's so early in the school year.

It's hard to decipher that "6+" is the advanced 6th grade class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was at BTSN tonight and learned that students who take on grade level pre-calculus (so not honors) will not be prepared to take Calculus AB the next year. This greatly concerns me. I understood that dropping out of the honors track wouldn't prepare my child for BC, but I thought it would prepare her for AB.

All of her friends scared her and told her that honors would be so much work so she dropped down, but now I am really upset for letting her. How is it that this course was not designed to prepare students? SHould I force her back in the honors track even though she doesn't want to (her math is strong, but she does not "like" it)? I'm a very upset parent tonight!

Simply not true. Both of my kids dropped down to regular pre-calculus and then took Calc AB their senior year. They both did fine. FYI this was a "W" school and many of their friends did the same thing. Not sure what's up with that teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand how you can be surprised by this.

I'm normally pretty on top of things- but definitely not a pushy parent. But why does a class that is called pre-calculus not lead to calculus? How was I to know that?

It doesn’t lead to calculus it doesn’t lead to AP which is above honors. MCPS has honors level calculus.[/for quote]

I mean it does lead to calculus just not AP.

Why not? What’s the difference? Calculus is calculus.

For a planned STEM major applying to college, AP Calc BC is better than AP calc AB is better than Honors Calc is better than ordinary Calculus. For a non-STEM major it might not weigh as much.

That said, Top-N colleges all want "most rigorous" HS coursework available at that HS in all subjects.

AB vs BC isn't a big deal.
Apps vs AP is a big deal because it shows that the student is off the honors track that STEM degrees need. Honors Precalc senior year is better than Calc with Apps. Doing more rigorous material slowly is better than non rigorous material quickly. BC isn't more rigorous than AB, it's the same rigor but faster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honors PCalc more similar level with AB
than a regular PreCalc.
Honors faster paced.

AB not always well designed and of course depending on teacher, can be poorly taught.

Work with a tutor.

??? This normal trajectory in MCPS

Honors PreCal > AB or BC Calc
PreCal > AB Calc or AP Stats

AB Calculus is Calc 1.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was at BTSN tonight and learned that students who take on grade level pre-calculus (so not honors) will not be prepared to take Calculus AB the next year. This greatly concerns me. I understood that dropping out of the honors track wouldn't prepare my child for BC, but I thought it would prepare her for AB.

All of her friends scared her and told her that honors would be so much work so she dropped down, but now I am really upset for letting her. How is it that this course was not designed to prepare students? SHould I force her back in the honors track even though she doesn't want to (her math is strong, but she does not "like" it)? I'm a very upset parent tonight!

Why is no one surprised that communication is subpar in guiding students and families to the various options students have in math and in other areas. Sigh.

I don't think anyone is doubting that. We're new to MoCo and had we not had kind neighbors with kids who had been through the system, we would have been absolutely lost (we're still semi-lost). It's hard to decipher the various courses with nebulous titles like Math AMP6+ and Advanced English (which is not particularly advanced), and the links to the descriptions of the classes are missing or listed as "coming soon" from the MCPS.

But the general message to the OP, is that she could still switch her kid if she wants. It's so early in the school year.

It's hard to decipher that "6+" is the advanced 6th grade class?

Yes, actually it was. To figure out whether my kid should go into AIM6 or AMP6+ (coming from a different school system) took me time to compare the thematic coverage of the different courses, and a discussion with my kid's prior teacher. And I'm an educated native English speaker. MCPS doesn't make these things easy, and there's stuff on their website (and even more so on individual school websites) that is missing or out of date.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was at BTSN tonight and learned that students who take on grade level pre-calculus (so not honors) will not be prepared to take Calculus AB the next year. This greatly concerns me. I understood that dropping out of the honors track wouldn't prepare my child for BC, but I thought it would prepare her for AB.

All of her friends scared her and told her that honors would be so much work so she dropped down, but now I am really upset for letting her. How is it that this course was not designed to prepare students? SHould I force her back in the honors track even though she doesn't want to (her math is strong, but she does not "like" it)? I'm a very upset parent tonight!

Simply not true. Both of my kids dropped down to regular pre-calculus and then took Calc AB their senior year. They both did fine. FYI this was a "W" school and many of their friends did the same thing. Not sure what's up with that teacher.

Does "fine" mean A and 5 on the exam?

The school provides a overlapping options to meet kids needs, so going up or down a tier to fit a student's comfort level is quite normal. Every class leads to 2 tiers for next year, but obviously the higher tier first class is better preparation for the higher tier next class.

If you look at the curriculum, it's clear that if you wanted to, you could take the higher (honors/AP) class, get a 0 on all the honors-only parts, and get one grade level (A->B) in the class vs taking the lower tier class.