Law School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Depends on what your DC is aiming for in their law career. If the goal is Big Law, or clerking at SCOTUS, maybe not. But I personally know two circuit court judges who didn't attend top law schools, as well as several prosecutors, family law attorneys, government attorneys, etc. who went to regular ol' law schools, and they're all enjoying satisfying careers and making a good living.

Many law students' goal is to earn enough money to pay off their student loan debt. However, GMU offers in-state tuition rates for residents of Virginia of just $27,000 per year--which is far less than what Top 14 law schools charge.

In addition to being affordable, GMU law offers a part-time law degree program which allows employed individuals to continue working while attending law school in the evening. Finally, GMU law offers a great location for legal internships and employment opportunities.

You can't look to tuition only when comparing. GMU law is $62k instate and $78k OOS. UVA is $105k instate snd $108 OOS. W&M is $69k in-state and $93k OOS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all related to your child's professional ambitions. Law encompasses many types of opportunities, and some require certain academic credentials while others do not.

GMU is not a top-tier law school, the type largely required for students who would like to have federal clerkships, want to work for very large and prestigious law firms, who want to work for the DOJ, or in-house in large companies, or who want to be law professors. It is fine for students who want to aim for employment at smaller firms, in local or state government, or for "law-adjacent" roles such as in law enforcement, where graduation from a top law school is not a prerequisite for consideration.

Of course, even at a mid-level institution, the better the student's academic performance, the more and relatively better professional opportunities will be potentially available upon graduation.

I would agree with this. The GMU Law grads are not going to the large prestigious DC firms or the sought-after fed govt jobs. They are working at the local Virginia firms. It is going to be a lot more important to do well in law school at GMU as opposed to a higher ranked school. I taught at GMU for a little bit. The top students were quite good, but then there was a big drop-off. The bottom of the class were not impressive.

Utterly false. Last year 53 went to law firms, several to ovre 500+ lawyrs. over 30 went on to clerk

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Depends on what your DC is aiming for in their law career. If the goal is Big Law, or clerking at SCOTUS, maybe not. But I personally know two circuit court judges who didn't attend top law schools, as well as several prosecutors, family law attorneys, government attorneys, etc. who went to regular ol' law schools, and they're all enjoying satisfying careers and making a good living.

Uh, Justices and sitting judges actually teach there. Then they snap up the best for clerking. I didn't get that even at harvard law

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all related to your child's professional ambitions. Law encompasses many types of opportunities, and some require certain academic credentials while others do not.

GMU is not a top-tier law school, the type largely required for students who would like to have federal clerkships, want to work for very large and prestigious law firms, who want to work for the DOJ, or in-house in large companies, or who want to be law professors. It is fine for students who want to aim for employment at smaller firms, in local or state government, or for "law-adjacent" roles such as in law enforcement, where graduation from a top law school is not a prerequisite for consideration.

Of course, even at a mid-level institution, the better the student's academic performance, the more and relatively better professional opportunities will be potentially available upon graduation.

This is key to understand. Law schools normally grade on a curve, which can be more severe at lower-ranking schools. Many lower-ranking schools entice high LSAT/GPA students with scholarships that have a GPA requirement. Thus, even at lower ranking schools, it may not be so easy to finish near the top of your class. Finishing in the middle of the pack or lower at a lower-ranking school may mean that you are never able to find a job as a practicing lawyer - or at least it may take you many years to network into one.

The curve tends to be less severe, or even nonexistent at lower tiered schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all related to your child's professional ambitions. Law encompasses many types of opportunities, and some require certain academic credentials while others do not.

GMU is not a top-tier law school, the type largely required for students who would like to have federal clerkships, want to work for very large and prestigious law firms, who want to work for the DOJ, or in-house in large companies, or who want to be law professors. It is fine for students who want to aim for employment at smaller firms, in local or state government, or for "law-adjacent" roles such as in law enforcement, where graduation from a top law school is not a prerequisite for consideration.

Of course, even at a mid-level institution, the better the student's academic performance, the more and relatively better professional opportunities will be potentially available upon graduation.

This is key to understand. Law schools normally grade on a curve, which can be more severe at lower-ranking schools. Many lower-ranking schools entice high LSAT/GPA students with scholarships that have a GPA requirement. Thus, even at lower ranking schools, it may not be so easy to finish near the top of your class. Finishing in the middle of the pack or lower at a lower-ranking school may mean that you are never able to find a job as a practicing lawyer - or at least it may take you many years to network into one.

The curve tends to be less severe, or even nonexistent at lower tiered schools.

I hav never heard that before. do you have a cite? If you mean GMU/Scalia, you need to know that it is now no 28 (way ahead of W&Mary law) and the no. 2 law school in the commonwealth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignore the “top or bust” people. GMU is fine and your kid will get a job.

This depends upon a cost benefit analysis as to whether or not GMU law is a wise investment of one's time & money. The median starting pay for a GMU law grad is paltry compared to the median average first year earnings for a Georgetown Law grad (as well as for any other Top 14 law school). The difference in first year compensation for a GMU law grad versus a top 14 law grad is usually quite dramatic:

[b]George Mason law grad median first year earnings are $80,000,[/b] while the median earnings for a first year Georgetown Law grad are about $165,000 and first year earnings for a University of Virginia law school grad are about $190,000.

Most graduates of Top 14 law schools start at major law firms referred to as Biglaw. Standard Biglaw salaries are lockstep for an attorney's first 8 years (although most last for a bit less than 4 years at their initial Biglaw law firm):

Biglaw lockstep salary and bonus for one's first 8 years:

1) $225, 000 base salary plus $20,000 end-of-year bonus = $245,000
2) $235,000 plus $30,000 = $265,000
3) $260,000 plus $57,500 = $317,500
4) $310,000 plus $75,000 = $385,000
5) $365,000 plus $90,000 = $455,000
6) $390,000 plus $105,000 = $495,000
7) $420,000 plus $115,000 = $535,000
8) $435,000 plus $115,000 = $550,000.

Not true. That figure is over six years old and from a third-party source and also includes the low salary of those clerking. Of the Scalia students who are in private law firms, the median is $130K and $205 for the 75th percentile. https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/career/nalp2022.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all related to your child's professional ambitions. Law encompasses many types of opportunities, and some require certain academic credentials while others do not.

GMU is not a top-tier law school, the type largely required for students who would like to have federal clerkships, want to work for very large and prestigious law firms, who want to work for the DOJ, or in-house in large companies, or who want to be law professors. It is fine for students who want to aim for employment at smaller firms, in local or state government, or for "law-adjacent" roles such as in law enforcement, where graduation from a top law school is not a prerequisite for consideration.

Of course, even at a mid-level institution, the better the student's academic performance, the more and relatively better professional opportunities will be potentially available upon graduation.

This is key to understand. Law schools normally grade on a curve, which can be more severe at lower-ranking schools. Many lower-ranking schools entice high LSAT/GPA students with scholarships that have a GPA requirement. Thus, even at lower ranking schools, it may not be so easy to finish near the top of your class. Finishing in the middle of the pack or lower at a lower-ranking school may mean that you are never able to find a job as a practicing lawyer - or at least it may take you many years to network into one.

The curve tends to be less severe, or even nonexistent at lower tiered schools.

I hav never heard that before. do you have a cite? If you mean GMU/Scalia, you need to know that it is now no 28 (way ahead of W&Mary law) and the no. 2 law school in the commonwealth.

I don't need a citation -- I've been an attorney, who talks to other attorneys about their law school experience, for over 20 years.

And your reading comprehension is poor -- no I don't "mean GMU/Scalia." I don't consider GMU a lower-tiered school at all given its current rank of 28. Only DCUM fools who know nothing about law school beyond googling "law school tiers" think that. A "lower-tiered school" to me, well today in fact as I deal with a ridiculous alum, is University of Baltimore law school.

[Anonymous]

Don't listen to DCUM and this "top law school or bust" stuff -- especially since they don't even really understand what a top law school is. Lots of folks who aren't lawyers playing one on DCUM and giving advice that is just downright incorrect. And some of that is already showing up here.

I went to law school at what I consider to be a pretty great school and people are impressed when they hear it -- it was founded in the 19th century and we had plenty of folks head to BigLaw in NYC and DC and federal clerkships al over, including Circuit Court clerkships. I landed at DOJ in the Honors Program. GMU is ranked ahead of my school (although when I went to ls, it didn't).

Your DD would do well to attend GMU, especially with in state tuition -- I can't tell you how many people struggle financially with their law school loans for years and years. And going to school with the intention of working in BigLaw where you can make enough to pay them off relatively easily isn't a plan -- most aren't able to get those jobs, and some people like me who could decide to go DOJ or public interest instead.

Just tell her that law review is a big deal and she should do everything she can to grade onto it, and if she doesn't (which she probably won't), do the write-on competition. Then she should consider clerking for a judge after graduation, preferable fed (and the DC area has some specialty courts to consider as well if she has certain interests like the Tax Court and the Court of Fed Claims). Appellate if she can get it.

She could do pretty much anything she wants with law review + fed clerkship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignore the “top or bust” people. GMU is fine and your kid will get a job.

This depends upon a cost benefit analysis as to whether or not GMU law is a wise investment of one's time & money. The median starting pay for a GMU law grad is paltry compared to the median average first year earnings for a Georgetown Law grad (as well as for any other Top 14 law school). The difference in first year compensation for a GMU law grad versus a top 14 law grad is usually quite dramatic:

George Mason law grad median first year earnings are $80,000, while the median earnings for a first year Georgetown Law grad are about $165,000 and first year earnings for a University of Virginia law school grad are about $190,000.

Most graduates of Top 14 law schools start at major law firms referred to as Biglaw. Standard Biglaw salaries are lockstep for an attorney's first 8 years (although most last for a bit less than 4 years at their initial Biglaw law firm):

Biglaw lockstep salary and bonus for one's first 8 years:

1) $225, 000 base salary plus $20,000 end-of-year bonus = $245,000
2) $235,000 plus $30,000 = $265,000
3) $260,000 plus $57,500 = $317,500
4) $310,000 plus $75,000 = $385,000
5) $365,000 plus $90,000 = $455,000
6) $390,000 plus $105,000 = $495,000
7) $420,000 plus $115,000 = $535,000
8) $435,000 plus $115,000 = $550,000.

But 56 out of 135 students last year were employed by firms. That's half the class. (rest are clerks, government hires, etc.). And GMU has 100 percent employment.

Also, it's not true that "most" T-14 grads go into BigLaw. It is more true that some of these schools have a "slim majority" go to BigLaw, if that. Only 65 of 224 2023 Yale grads went to work for a firm with over 501 attorneys (less than 30%). In fact, only 174 had jobs that required a JD. Even if you assume the 54 federal clerks eventually go to BigLaw, that's still only 119 (53%). Harvard had more -- 516 out of 554 grads take jobs that required a JD & 332 in 501+ person firms, but that's still only 66%. Duke shows 140 out of 238 going to BigLaw (58%). Georgetown had 54% go to work for law firms of any size (didn't find a breakdown by size quickly), so essentially the same as GMU. Michigan had 57% go to a private firm of any size. Meanwhile, Texas (*not* T-14) had 253 out of 277 employed in a job requiring a JD, with 157 at private firms (57%) and 102 (37%) in BigLaw. If you add in the 46 clerks at Texas, that's 148 (53%). One thing that surprised me is that Texas had 36 (13% of class) with federal clerkships compared to Yale's 54 (24% of class).With Yale's reputation as the place to go if you want a clerkship, I would have expected the discrepancy to be larger. (FWIW, employment numbers were one reason Yale dropped out of the USNWR rankings.)

I am a BigLaw partner and have a kid who is looking at law school, which is what made me want to dig into these numbers. But anecdotally, a few weeks back I had a BigLaw partner friend tell me that my DC should definitely look at GMU, as it is definitely on an upward trend.

[Anonymous]

Unless your kid wants to be a law professor, they should go to GMU if it's substantially cheaper. Great school, and every option will be open as long as they do well in law school.

-law prof (not from GMU)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignore the “top or bust” people. GMU is fine and your kid will get a job.

This depends upon a cost benefit analysis as to whether or not GMU law is a wise investment of one's time & money. The median starting pay for a GMU law grad is paltry compared to the median average first year earnings for a Georgetown Law grad (as well as for any other Top 14 law school). The difference in first year compensation for a GMU law grad versus a top 14 law grad is usually quite dramatic:

[b]George Mason law grad median first year earnings are $80,000,[/b] while the median earnings for a first year Georgetown Law grad are about $165,000 and first year earnings for a University of Virginia law school grad are about $190,000.

Most graduates of Top 14 law schools start at major law firms referred to as Biglaw. Standard Biglaw salaries are lockstep for an attorney's first 8 years (although most last for a bit less than 4 years at their initial Biglaw law firm):

Biglaw lockstep salary and bonus for one's first 8 years:

1) $225, 000 base salary plus $20,000 end-of-year bonus = $245,000
2) $235,000 plus $30,000 = $265,000
3) $260,000 plus $57,500 = $317,500
4) $310,000 plus $75,000 = $385,000
5) $365,000 plus $90,000 = $455,000
6) $390,000 plus $105,000 = $495,000
7) $420,000 plus $115,000 = $535,000
8) $435,000 plus $115,000 = $550,000.

Not true. That figure is over six years old and from a third-party source and also includes the low salary of those clerking. Of the Scalia students who are in private law firms, the median is $130K and $205 for the 75th percentile. https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/career/nalp2022.pdf

Wrong. You need to read the entire report that you cited in your post. GMU long term median salary is even lower--$75,000--than the $80,000 that I cited.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't listen to DCUM and this "top law school or bust" stuff -- especially since they don't even really understand what a top law school is. Lots of folks who aren't lawyers playing one on DCUM and giving advice that is just downright incorrect. And some of that is already showing up here.

I went to law school at what I consider to be a pretty great school and people are impressed when they hear it -- it was founded in the 19th century and we had plenty of folks head to BigLaw in NYC and DC and federal clerkships al over, including Circuit Court clerkships. I landed at DOJ in the Honors Program. GMU is ranked ahead of my school (although when I went to ls, it didn't).

Your DD would do well to attend GMU, especially with in state tuition -- I can't tell you how many people struggle financially with their law school loans for years and years. And going to school with the intention of working in BigLaw where you can make enough to pay them off relatively easily isn't a plan -- most aren't able to get those jobs, and some people like me who could decide to go DOJ or public interest instead.

Just tell her that law review is a big deal and she should do everything she can to grade onto it, and if she doesn't (which she probably won't), do the write-on competition. Then she should consider clerking for a judge after graduation, preferable fed (and the DC area has some specialty courts to consider as well if she has certain interests like the Tax Court and the Court of Fed Claims). Appellate if she can get it.

She could do pretty much anything she wants with law review + fed clerkship.

I read the above post while alternating between shaking my head and near outright laughter. Clearly, the above poster is angry and has an ax to grind regarding this matter and is out-of-touch with the realities of the legal market today.

Stating that one could do well if on law review and able to obtain a federal judicial clerkship is not reasonable advice even though mostly accurate. Earning a spot on law review and getting a federal judicial clerkship are not easily accomplished.

Of the 143 law graduates of the GMU law class of 2022, almost 5.6% (8) obtained federal judicial clerkships. This is a solid percentage. Another 6 got clerkships at the state level (usually state appellate courts), and 19 obtained local judicial clerkships-which is a type of bottom-of-the-barrel legal job placement. Understand that the overwhelming majority of law students from a Top 14 law school (other than Yale Law School, U Chicago, and Stanford) cannot get a federal judicial clerkship.

The more reasonable way to assess law school options is to assume that one will graduate ranked at median--in the middle of the class. This is one area where Top 14 law schools excel. The higher ranked a law school is, the deeper into the class Biglaw will go.

As a side note: I assume that the angry poster graduated law school in the 1980s and has not kept up with the realities of the legal marketplace over the last two decades.

Important to understand that federal judicial clerkships at the District Court and Circuit Court level are only important for those aspiring to be litigators (trial attorneys) which is an area not highly valued by most Biglaw firms today. (A couple of Biglaw firms recently announced that summer clerks would not be allowed to experience litigation and that of the summer clerks receiving an offer of post-law school employment who expressed a desire to practice in litigation would have their employment offers rescinded. Litigation is just too expensive for large law firm clients and not as profitable for Biglaw firms as is transactional practice areas.)

Whether or not to attend law school should be assessed on a cost benefit analysis with the assumption that one will graduate at median--in the middle of the class. At most Top 14 law schools it is fine to finish in the top 75% to 80% as Biglaw employers go much deeper into the classes at these schools.

Any difference in statistics and salaries is due to different methods of compiling and reporting data between the ABA and NALP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Unless your kid wants to be a law professor, they should go to GMU if it's substantially cheaper. Great school, and every option will be open as long as they do well in law school.

-law prof (not from GMU)

Sorry, but this post is ridiculous.

The realities of becoming a tenured law professor in today's market is that it is a reasonable career goal for graduates of only a very few law schools such as Yale, Chicago, and Stanford--the 3 smallest law schools among the Top 14 law schools.

If one wants a second job as an adjunct professor (very low pay), then expertise in a practice area may suffice.

[Anonymous]

Although hard to believe, some lawyers who engaged in double federal clerkships (one in federal District Court followed by a clerkship at the appellate level in a federal Circuit Court) are having difficulty finding a desired job as a private sector attorney in Biglaw because litigation is not as profitable as are Biglaw firms' transactional practices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignore the “top or bust” people. GMU is fine and your kid will get a job.

This depends upon a cost benefit analysis as to whether or not GMU law is a wise investment of one's time & money. The median starting pay for a GMU law grad is paltry compared to the median average first year earnings for a Georgetown Law grad (as well as for any other Top 14 law school). The difference in first year compensation for a GMU law grad versus a top 14 law grad is usually quite dramatic:

[b]George Mason law grad median first year earnings are $80,000,[/b] while the median earnings for a first year Georgetown Law grad are about $165,000 and first year earnings for a University of Virginia law school grad are about $190,000.

Most graduates of Top 14 law schools start at major law firms referred to as Biglaw. Standard Biglaw salaries are lockstep for an attorney's first 8 years (although most last for a bit less than 4 years at their initial Biglaw law firm):

Biglaw lockstep salary and bonus for one's first 8 years:

1) $225, 000 base salary plus $20,000 end-of-year bonus = $245,000
2) $235,000 plus $30,000 = $265,000
3) $260,000 plus $57,500 = $317,500
4) $310,000 plus $75,000 = $385,000
5) $365,000 plus $90,000 = $455,000
6) $390,000 plus $105,000 = $495,000
7) $420,000 plus $115,000 = $535,000
8) $435,000 plus $115,000 = $550,000.

Not true. That figure is over six years old and from a third-party source and also includes the low salary of those clerking. Of the Scalia students who are in private law firms, the median is $130K and $205 for the 75th percentile. https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/career/nalp2022.pdf

The $80,000 figure is for the GMU class of either 2022 or 2023 (ABA data) and, of course, it includes clerkship salaries as do all of the figures cited in my post for other law schools. NALP reports median GMU salaries for the most recently reported year (either class of 2022 or 2023 as being even lower at $75,000.)