Law School

[Anonymous]

Depends on what your DC is aiming for in their law career. If the goal is Big Law, or clerking at SCOTUS, maybe not. But I personally know two circuit court judges who didn't attend top law schools, as well as several prosecutors, family law attorneys, government attorneys, etc. who went to regular ol' law schools, and they're all enjoying satisfying careers and making a good living.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Depends on what your DC is aiming for in their law career. If the goal is Big Law, or clerking at SCOTUS, maybe not. But I personally know two circuit court judges who didn't attend top law schools, as well as several prosecutors, family law attorneys, government attorneys, etc. who went to regular ol' law schools, and they're all enjoying satisfying careers and making a good living.

Many law students' goal is to earn enough money to pay off their student loan debt. However, GMU offers in-state tuition rates for residents of Virginia of just $27,000 per year--which is far less than what Top 14 law schools charge.

In addition to being affordable, GMU law offers a part-time law degree program which allows employed individuals to continue working while attending law school in the evening. Finally, GMU law offers a great location for legal internships and employment opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is all related to your child's professional ambitions. Law encompasses many types of opportunities, and some require certain academic credentials while others do not.

GMU is not a top-tier law school, the type largely required for students who would like to have federal clerkships, want to work for very large and prestigious law firms, who want to work for the DOJ, or in-house in large companies, or who want to be law professors. It is fine for students who want to aim for employment at smaller firms, in local or state government, or for "law-adjacent" roles such as in law enforcement, where graduation from a top law school is not a prerequisite for consideration.

Of course, even at a mid-level institution, the better the student's academic performance, the more and relatively better professional opportunities will be potentially available upon graduation.

I would agree with this. The GMU Law grads are not going to the large prestigious DC firms or the sought-after fed govt jobs. They are working at the local Virginia firms. It is going to be a lot more important to do well in law school at GMU as opposed to a higher ranked school. I taught at GMU for a little bit. The top students were quite good, but then there was a big drop-off. The bottom of the class were not impressive.

[Anonymous]

I’m glad someone finally mentioned the in-state tuition.

I went the GMUSL-federal clerkship-BigLaw path back before the “Scalia Law” days, and graduated with no debt. Picked GMUSL because I wanted to start out part time in the evenings (I had a job and didn’t go straight from undergrad) and didn’t want to pay private school tuition, mostly because at that time I thought I just wanted a lowkey federal attorney position and wouldn’t make bank.

[Anonymous]

Op, it's worth attending GMU rather than not attending law school, due to it's location near Washington, DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC (at GMU) wants to go to GMU Law School. I have zero knowledge about Law School and the only discussions I have seen are on DCUM (about top law schools). All discussions seem to imply that it is 'top school or bust'. Is GMU Law worth it? Where do GMU Law students end up? What kid of jobs do they get?

If your daughter qualifies for in-state tuition as a Virginia resident, then GMU should be considered. However, the better approach to law school would be to prepare for and take either the LSAT (law school admissions test) or the GRE (graduate record exam), then, based upon her score earned and her undergraduate GPA, assess for which law schools she would be a competitive applicant. Next, apply to several law schools and compare COA (cost-of-attendance) for each school to which she is accepted. (Many believe that the only law schools worth full tuition are Yale, Stanford, & Harvard, but the University of Chicago also should be considered among this group in my opinion.)

Broadly speaking, the Top 14 law schools are considered national law schools in the respect that their law grads are recruited by major law firms throughout the country. The remaining law schools are predominately regional in terms of job recruiting and placement.

The most elite law schools are referred to as the Top 6--Yale, Stanford, Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, & NYU.

Expanding to the Top 14 US law schools: U Penn, Northwestern, Duke, UC-Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan, Cornell, & Georgetown.

Yale, Stanford, & Harvard do not award merit based scholarships, but do give need based financial aid. Chicago, Columbia, & NYU do offer some merit scholarships which many believe are designed to lure students away from Yale, Stanford, and/or Harvard law schools.

Many law schools not ranked by US News among the Top 14 offer substantial merit based scholarships in an attempt to attract students who otherwise would attend a top 14 law school.

Publicly (state) funded law schools offer discounted tuition rates to residents of that particular state.

Attending law school should be based on a cost-benefit analysis as the COA is typically substantial in addition to the loss of nearly 3 years in income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ignore the “top or bust” people. GMU is fine and your kid will get a job.

+1. It's ranked higher than George Washington Law School now and it's less than half the price.

[Anonymous]

Continuing:

If your daughter is a resident of Virginia, typically the University of Virginia School of Law would be a much better option in terms of career outcomes than would earning a law degree from GMU Scalia. Much closer call, however, if offered a full tuition merit scholarship from GMU versus full pay at the U Virginia law school, but most would still select U Virginia law over the full tuition scholarship at GMU. Accordingly, GMU Scalia protects itself by only offering full tuition scholarships to highly qualified ED (binding early decision) applicants.

Side note: Among all 196 ABA (American Bar Association) accredited law schools, the University of Georgia (US News rank #20) is considered to be the best value for those who qualify for resident tuition rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ignore the “top or bust” people. GMU is fine and your kid will get a job.

This depends upon a cost benefit analysis as to whether or not GMU law is a wise investment of one's time & money. The median starting pay for a GMU law grad is paltry compared to the median average first year earnings for a Georgetown Law grad (as well as for any other Top 14 law school). The difference in first year compensation for a GMU law grad versus a top 14 law grad is usually quite dramatic:

George Mason law grad median first year earnings are $80,000, while the median earnings for a first year Georgetown Law grad are about $165,000 and first year earnings for a University of Virginia law school grad are about $190,000.

Most graduates of Top 14 law schools start at major law firms referred to as Biglaw. Standard Biglaw salaries are lockstep for an attorney's first 8 years (although most last for a bit less than 4 years at their initial Biglaw law firm):

Biglaw lockstep salary and bonus for one's first 8 years:

1) $225, 000 base salary plus $20,000 end-of-year bonus = $245,000
2) $235,000 plus $30,000 = $265,000
3) $260,000 plus $57,500 = $317,500
4) $310,000 plus $75,000 = $385,000
5) $365,000 plus $90,000 = $455,000
6) $390,000 plus $105,000 = $495,000
7) $420,000 plus $115,000 = $535,000
8) $435,000 plus $115,000 = $550,000.

[Anonymous]

GMU has a decent reputation in the DC area, though some people assume the grads are conservative. I would make sure your DC actually wants to be an attorney though. Working for a couple of years in an area of law they are interested in as an admin or paralegal makes sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignore the “top or bust” people. GMU is fine and your kid will get a job.

+1. It's ranked higher than George Washington Law School now and it's less than half the price.


It's not "less than half the price". GW is private and $106k year. GMU instate is 63k. OOS is $78

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignore the “top or bust” people. GMU is fine and your kid will get a job.

This depends upon a cost benefit analysis as to whether or not GMU law is a wise investment of one's time & money. The median starting pay for a GMU law grad is paltry compared to the median average first year earnings for a Georgetown Law grad (as well as for any other Top 14 law school). The difference in first year compensation for a GMU law grad versus a top 14 law grad is usually quite dramatic:

George Mason law grad median first year earnings are $80,000, while the median earnings for a first year Georgetown Law grad are about $165,000 and first year earnings for a University of Virginia law school grad are about $190,000.

Most graduates of Top 14 law schools start at major law firms referred to as Biglaw. Standard Biglaw salaries are lockstep for an attorney's first 8 years (although most last for a bit less than 4 years at their initial Biglaw law firm):

Biglaw lockstep salary and bonus for one's first 8 years:

1) $225, 000 base salary plus $20,000 end-of-year bonus = $245,000
2) $235,000 plus $30,000 = $265,000
3) $260,000 plus $57,500 = $317,500
4) $310,000 plus $75,000 = $385,000
5) $365,000 plus $90,000 = $455,000
6) $390,000 plus $105,000 = $495,000
7) $420,000 plus $115,000 = $535,000
8) $435,000 plus $115,000 = $550,000.

But 56 out of 135 students last year were employed by firms. That's half the class. (rest are clerks, government hires, etc.). And GMU has 100 percent employment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC (at GMU) wants to go to GMU Law School. I have zero knowledge about Law School and the only discussions I have seen are on DCUM (about top law schools). All discussions seem to imply that it is 'top school or bust'. Is GMU Law worth it? Where do GMU Law students end up? What kid of jobs do they get?

If your daughter qualifies for in-state tuition as a Virginia resident, then GMU should be considered. However, the better approach to law school would be to prepare for and take either the LSAT (law school admissions test) or the GRE (graduate record exam), then, based upon her score earned and her undergraduate GPA, assess for which law schools she would be a competitive applicant. Next, apply to several law schools and compare COA (cost-of-attendance) for each school to which she is accepted. (Many believe that the only law schools worth full tuition are Yale, Stanford, & Harvard, but the University of Chicago also should be considered among this group in my opinion.)

Broadly speaking, the Top 14 law schools are considered national law schools in the respect that their law grads are recruited by major law firms throughout the country. The remaining law schools are predominately regional in terms of job recruiting and placement.

The most elite law schools are referred to as the Top 6--Yale, Stanford, Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, & NYU.

Expanding to the Top 14 US law schools: U Penn, Northwestern, Duke, UC-Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan, Cornell, & Georgetown.

Yale, Stanford, & Harvard do not award merit based scholarships, but do give need based financial aid. Chicago, Columbia, & NYU do offer some merit scholarships which many believe are designed to lure students away from Yale, Stanford, and/or Harvard law schools.

Many law schools not ranked by US News among the Top 14 offer substantial merit based scholarships in an attempt to attract students who otherwise would attend a top 14 law school.

Publicly (state) funded law schools offer discounted tuition rates to residents of that particular state.

Attending law school should be based on a cost-benefit analysis as the COA is typically substantial in addition to the loss of nearly 3 years in income.

UVA is now tied for 4th. see USNWR law rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all related to your child's professional ambitions. Law encompasses many types of opportunities, and some require certain academic credentials while others do not.

GMU is not a top-tier law school, the type largely required for students who would like to have federal clerkships, want to work for very large and prestigious law firms, who want to work for the DOJ, or in-house in large companies, or who want to be law professors. It is fine for students who want to aim for employment at smaller firms, in local or state government, or for "law-adjacent" roles such as in law enforcement, where graduation from a top law school is not a prerequisite for consideration.

Of course, even at a mid-level institution, the better the student's academic performance, the more and relatively better professional opportunities will be potentially available upon graduation.

I would agree with this. The GMU Law grads are not going to the large prestigious DC firms or the sought-after fed govt jobs. They are working at the local Virginia firms. It is going to be a lot more important to do well in law school at GMU as opposed to a higher ranked school. I taught at GMU for a little bit. The top students were quite good, but then there was a big drop-off. The bottom of the class were not impressive.

False. Over half did last year. and clerking. Read GMU Scalia law employment

[Anonymous]

Note that the median salary number is very much impacted by federal government (GS - 11 is around $75K) and clerkships -- fed are also JSP-11 and state clerks are usually lower. Many of those grads then go to law firms after clerkships, although some go to both state and fed government.